Philosophy Now Forum

vegetariantaxidermy wrote: What do you expect? He thinks 'atheist' is a synonym for 'communist'.

Like a lot of other stuff he thinks, it needs knocking out of him.

Immanuel Can wrote:This question isn't one that can be answered sensibly, because it assumes all "religions" are the same.

Quakers, The Salvation Army and Mennonites have caused no wars, no pogroms, no crusades... Nor have JW's, Moonies, Sufis or for that matter, the Solar Temple Cult...though their members were lamentably cut off in the bloom of youth.

On the other hand, half of all the religious wars in history have been caused by Islam. Though far less violent, the Catholic Church has been "no saint." Meanwhile, Atheists...who claim to have no "religion" at all, have killed far more than anyone else.

Which "religion"? What "boons"? What "banes?" Until those questions are addressed, there's simply no way to generalize at all.

Do you have anything to back that up?

Immanuel Can wrote:Meanwhile, Atheists...who claim to have no "religion" at all, have killed far more than anyone else.

One what data is this claim based? I am aware of no killings at all done in the name of atheism, so I presume you mean killing done in wars started by atheists?? WWII is out then, since Hitler certainly motivated his people via their Christianity. He couldn't have done it without that, which is what I mean by religion making a group more fit. OK, the cold war is not particularly religiously motivated, but it was not something that anybody really started, but rather is a reluctance on the Allied parts to finish the job started by Hitler. The USA has always had a Christian president, so I see no atheists killing anybody there.

On an individual basis (not counting the religion used by leadership to drive its wars), less than 10% of the world seems to have no religion at all, and most of the ones that kill do so because their leaders tell them to because that's what soldiers do. The killings done by soldiers cannot be laid at the feet of their personal beliefs as you seem to be trying to do here.

Immanuel Can wrote: On the other hand, half of all the religious wars in history have been caused by Islam

Can I see the methodology behind that claim?

Londoner wrote:

Immanuel Can wrote: Can I see the methodology behind that claim?

He made it up, that's what he does.

Noax wrote:

Immanuel Can wrote:Meanwhile, Atheists...who claim to have no "religion" at all, have killed far more than anyone else.

One what data is this claim based?

The three-volume "Encyclopaedia of War," a completely secular source, which lists the numbers of war deaths from various conflicts.

Consider Hitler's eugenics, Stalin's gulags, Mao's "re-education" camps, Pol Pot's killing fields...all performed by avowed Atheists.

Meanwhile, 148 million died in the last century in wars that had nothing to do with "religion" at all. If "religion" were the problem, then how come it accounts for no more than 8% of the total killed in wars, half of which is from one "religion," Islam? Moreover, the remaining 4% is every other religion combined...including Sikhs, Buddhists, Catholics, Hindus, etc.

By any count, there are a lot bigger causes of war death than "religion." Atheism is one of them.

Immanuel Can wrote:

Noax wrote:

Immanuel Can wrote:Meanwhile, Atheists...who claim to have no "religion" at all, have killed far more than anyone else.

One what data is this claim based?

The three-volume "Encyclopaedia of War," a completely secular source, which lists the numbers of war deaths from various conflicts.

Consider Hitler's eugenics, Stalin's gulags, Mao's "re-education" camps, Pol Pot's killing fields...all performed by avowed Atheists.

Meanwhile, 148 million died in the last century in wars that had nothing to do with "religion" at all. If "religion" were the problem, then how come it accounts for no more than 8% of the total killed in wars, half of which is from one "religion," Islam? Moreover, the remaining 4% is every other religion combined...including Sikhs, Buddhists, Catholics, Hindus, etc.

By any count, there are a lot bigger causes of war death than "religion." Atheism is one of them.

Not one of them killed in the name of atheism. Do you just pretend to be an idiot? A couple of them had a moustache too. Gee. That must mean moustaches turn people into murderous dictators. Have you never heard the expression 'power corrupts'? Do you really think it's relevant what a totalitarian dictator's religious beliefs are?

Immanuel Can wrote:

Noax wrote:One what data is this claim based?

The three-volume "Encyclopaedia of War," a completely secular source, which lists the numbers of war deaths from various conflicts.

You're a funny guy, Immanuel, despite your best efforts not to be.

vegetariantaxidermy wrote:

Immanuel Can wrote:

Noax wrote:One what data is this claim based?

The three-volume "Encyclopaedia of War," a completely secular source, which lists the numbers of war deaths from various conflicts.

Consider Hitler's eugenics, Stalin's gulags, Mao's "re-education" camps, Pol Pot's killing fields...all performed by avowed Atheists.

Meanwhile, 148 million died in the last century in wars that had nothing to do with "religion" at all. If "religion" were the problem, then how come it accounts for no more than 8% of the total killed in wars, half of which is from one "religion," Islam? Moreover, the remaining 4% is every other religion combined...including Sikhs, Buddhists, Catholics, Hindus, etc.

By any count, there are a lot bigger causes of war death than "religion." Atheism is one of them.

Not one of them killed in the name of atheism. Do you just pretend to be an idiot? A couple of them had a moustache too. Gee. That must mean moustaches turn people into murderous dictators. Have you never heard the expression 'power corrupts'? Do you really think it's relevant what a totalitarian dictator's religious beliefs are?

As an aside, those same dictators didn't personally kill anyone, as far as I am aware. Hitler's was no atheist, and most of his moronic followers were kristian, so it was kristians who actually did the killing. Religion teaches blind allegiance--whether to a god or a man--it's all the same. And look at all the killing done by kristian American soldiers.

Immanuel Can wrote: Consider Hitler's eugenics, Stalin's gulags, Mao's "re-education" camps, Pol Pot's killing fields...all performed by avowed Atheists.
.

Hitler's was very religious indeed, and made a pact with the Vatican to help him round up "filthy" jews.

The other three are interesting since they had no particular interest in Atheism, but modelled their leadership styles on religion, forging themselves in the image of gods. Take a look at Kim il Un.

Countless numbers have died horribly due to the church strangling the shit out of science; preventing contraception, and pretending to be doctors with no medical knowledge.
Even today Jahovah's witnesses are killing their own children with medical neglect; and traditionalists Jews infecting children with dirty circumscision.
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/jew ... -1.2055911
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... erpes.html


http://adc.bmj.com/content/90/7/715.full
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... d=16763280

Londoner wrote:

attofishpi wrote:
I'm happy to compare doctrine - you show me yours and i'll show you mine. We are only just realising in the most dreadful way the truth to Islam.

You must know that when you point out bits of the Koran that refer to fighting, Muslims will always point out that the context is Muslims being attacked. Certainly Muslims are sometime aggressive and intolerant to other religions, but they can reasonably point out that historically they have been less so than Christians. However, it does not follow from this that all Christians must therefore be wicked. To say so would be untrue.

As for comparing our doctrines, I think 'Ye shall know them by their fruits'. I note that you have chosen to divert this thread into an attack on Muslims - all Muslims.

I have not attacked one let alone all Muslims - please quote anything i have said where i am attacking a Muslim.

Noax stated:- "God commands us to kill these unbelievers so that makes it OK"

The question i posed was what religious doctrine that you know of has statements directing followers to kill unbelievers? Islam via the Koran is the only one that i am aware of.

I have a well considered concern regarding the doctrine contained within the Koran, because it directs its followers to do just that or at the minimum subjugate them and enforce a tax on the non believers.

Immanuel Can wrote:This question isn't one that can be answered sensibly, because it assumes all "religions" are the same.

Which "religion"? What "boons"? What "banes?" Until those questions are addressed, there's simply no way to generalize at all.

The purpose of many questions is not to arrive at a specific answer but to explore the question and to encourage people to think about possible answers.

Hitler, Stalin and Mao were not atheists. Each believed themselves to be a god, and there was so little trust that none dared reveal "that the emperor was wearing no clothes".

These cults of personality are a long way from atheism, which declines to make any deity claims whatsoever. The Scandinavian countries provided a promising model of how secular societies may work.

Greta wrote:Hitler, Stalin and Mao were not atheists. Each believed themselves to be a god, and there was so little trust that none dared reveal "that the emperor was wearing no clothes".

These cults of personality are a long way from atheism, which declines to make any deity claims whatsoever. The Scandinavian countries provided a promising model of how secular societies may work.

On the contrary; it is atheism incarnate.

As for the Scandinavian countries, you should investigate what's going on there now and ask yourself why.

Reflex wrote:

Greta wrote:Hitler, Stalin and Mao were not atheists. Each believed themselves to be a god, and there was so little trust that none dared reveal "that the emperor was wearing no clothes".

These cults of personality are a long way from atheism, which declines to make any deity claims whatsoever. The Scandinavian countries provided a promising model of how secular societies may work.

On the contrary; it is atheism incarnate.

How do you justify that claim?