The Anonymous in Religious Music

[sthitapragya]

A work of art has an author and yet, when it is perfect, it has something which is anonymous about it. Simone Weil

And this is my problem with Simone. She is not talking about religious works. She is talking about any work of art. What she is implying is that there is something in that art which did not come from the author. She is therefore implying that he had help. She is therefore saying that without that help the author could not have produced the work of art. She is implying that because she could not create a work of art and cannot bring herself to believe that another human being is capable of producing what she cannot. Insecure people without ability use this underhanded method to discredit people with ability.

You and Simone Weil are the moochers Ayn Rand talks about.

[Dubious]

Not to superimpose words or meanings in anyone's frame of reference but I think what Nick may have meant or alluding to is that there exists something timeless and archetypal in the human psyche which a genius artistic can recreate as metaphor in whatever medium of expression its creator is master of. This obviously does not refer only to old religious music.

[sthitapragya]

Not to superimpose words or meanings in anyone's frame of reference but I think what Nick may have meant or alluding to is that there exists something timeless and archetypal in the human psyche which a genius artistic can recreate as metaphor in whatever medium of expression its creator is master of. This obviously does not refer only to old religious music.

If there really was something like that, then everyone would feel more or less the same way about a particular art form. For example, when I see the Mona Lisa I don't feel any particular sense of amazement. I know it is a masterpiece only because everyone says so. However, when I see The Scream, I get goose bumps. Even appreciation of art is usually personal. I am pretty sure very few people can understand Picasso. I am not one of them. You could be listening to Mozart and a friend will come over and tell you to play something better. That's right. Better.

Observing human behaviour shows that there is nothing to suggest that there is, as you say, something timeless and archetypal in the human psyche. There could be things that out DNA reacts to. But it probably has more to do with genetics rather than a transference of some common consciousness.

[thedoc]

Yes, if no one with the soul of an artist shows up who I can exchange with. And by that I don't mean someone who just expresses themselves.

Nick_A, I haven't given it much thought till now, but I will try to listen to some of the older works and put it into words. BTW I do play some classical music on the piano, and I'll use that to try and get some feel for what you mean. This is a really odd forum, when someone does try to broach a serious subject, you get the kind of responses you have so far, sometimes it seems that you are better off to stick with hostility and abuse, just like everyone else.

[vegetariantaxidermy]

Yes, if no one with the soul of an artist shows up who I can exchange with. And by that I don't mean someone who just expresses themselves.

Nick_A, I haven't given it much thought till now, but I will try to listen to some of the older works and put it into words. BTW I do play some classical music on the piano, and I'll use that to try and get some feel for what you mean. This is a really odd forum, when someone does try to broach a serious subject, you get the kind of responses you have so far, sometimes it seems that you are better off to stick with hostility and abuse, just like everyone else.

Pehaps it's because of his thin-veiled attempts to insert his god into everything he writes. It's dishnonest and insidious. People on here aren't that stupid.

[Nick_A]

What’s up Doc. Sorry, couldn’t resist. Anyhow, you wrote

N

ick_A wrote:Yes, if no one with the soul of an artist shows up who I can exchange with. And by that I don't mean someone who just expresses themselves.

Nick_A, I haven't given it much thought till now, but I will try to listen to some of the older works and put it into words. BTW I do play some classical music on the piano, and I'll use that to try and get some feel for what you mean. This is a really odd forum, when someone does try to broach a serious subject, you get the kind of responses you have so far, sometimes it seems that you are better off to stick with hostility and abuse, just like everyone else.

The question of the anonymous is difficult if a person hasn’t felt it. I’ve learned that child prodigies exist in math, chess, and music. Why? It dawned on me that these fields are logical. Where chess and math are intellectually logical and connect levels of understanding when perfect, music is emotionally logical. That means the musician or singer under the right conditions can serve to emotionally connect a deeper level of spirituality with our more normal states. This means that music when perfect serves as a channel connecting levels of reality emotionally. We cannot do it with our five senses. Rather it happens in a way the intellect cannot define. It has to be felt. This is why this thread is only for those who have felt the power of music when it is perfect. This is different than the power of music to excite and manipulate our lower emotions. It is a different experience that only those who have felt it can understand.

I’ve read that this quality of art has a ‘present.” It is timeless. The truths it communicates are not subjective but rather objective truths that the deeper parts of our being feel. Since it is perfect and timeless it affects people from the past and present equally if they are open to it. Anything you can add through your experience is appreciated.

[thedoc]

What’s up Doc. Sorry, couldn’t resist. Anyhow, you wrote

N

ick_A wrote:Yes, if no one with the soul of an artist shows up who I can exchange with. And by that I don't mean someone who just expresses themselves.

Nick_A, I haven't given it much thought till now, but I will try to listen to some of the older works and put it into words. BTW I do play some classical music on the piano, and I'll use that to try and get some feel for what you mean. This is a really odd forum, when someone does try to broach a serious subject, you get the kind of responses you have so far, sometimes it seems that you are better off to stick with hostility and abuse, just like everyone else.

The question of the anonymous is difficult if a person hasn’t felt it. I’ve learned that child prodigies exist in math, chess, and music. Why? It dawned on me that these fields are logical. Where chess and math are intellectually logical and connect levels of understanding when perfect, music is emotionally logical. That means the musician or singer under the right conditions can serve to emotionally connect a deeper level of spirituality with our more normal states. This means that music when perfect serves as a channel connecting levels of reality emotionally. We cannot do it with our five senses. Rather it happens in a way the intellect cannot define. It has to be felt. This is why this thread is only for those who have felt the power of music when it is perfect. This is different than the power of music to excite and manipulate our lower emotions. It is a different experience that only those who have felt it can understand.

I’ve read that this quality of art has a ‘present.” It is timeless. The truths it communicates are not subjective but rather objective truths that the deeper parts of our being feel. Since it is perfect and timeless it affects people from the past and present equally if they are open to it. Anything you can add through your experience is appreciated.

I believe I mentioned that I play some classical pieces on the piano, and the 1st movement of Beethoven's "Moonlight Sonata" (Sonata quasi una Fantasia) is one of them. 4 or 5 Years after Beethoven died Ludwig Rellstab said the piece reminded him of "Moonlight rippling of the waves of lake Lucerne" and the name stuck, and has been influencing the manner of playing the piece ever since. I learned to play it over 50 years ago and after a 40 year absence from the piano, I got a piano and started playing again, and have been for about 4 years. Moonlight Sonata was one of the first pieces I started playing again, but the more I play it the less it sounds like Moonlight and the more it sounds like a Thunder Storm with rain hitting the roof, so that is how I play it. I'm thinking that this "Anonymous Quality" you refer to would become most apparent in the interpretation of the music and how it is played.

FYI, I've always been good at math but have not had the opportunity to pursue it, I also used to play chess, and played one game on the "Talk Rational" forum which earned me the title of "Talk Rational Chess Champion" I won by a fluke rather than by actually beating my opponent. So it's interesting that you mention those other skills along with music.

[Harbal]

He is quoting Whackjob Weil again. What did you expect? Clarity and succinctness? I think I have finally figured out what makes Nick tick. If he doesn't understand it, it is profound even if others can understand it and see how ridiculously stupid it is.

Now you've abandoned those silly notions of being polite and civilised you're developing quite an entertaining style, sthitapragya. I hope you keep it up.

[Harbal]

I play some classical pieces on the piano, and the 1st movement of Beethoven's "Moonlight Sonata" (Sonata quasi una Fantasia) is one of them.

Hey, I like to play that piece, doc. It sounds really good on kazoo, kinda different.

[thedoc]

I play some classical pieces on the piano, and the 1st movement of Beethoven's "Moonlight Sonata" (Sonata quasi una Fantasia) is one of them.

Hey, I like to play that piece, doc. It sounds really good on kazoo, kinda different.

How many Kazoo's do you use? Do you play several at once or do you have several players, each with one kazoo playing a different part?
I suppose that if you are tone deaf, it might sound good on a kazoo.

[Harbal]

I suppose that if you are tone deaf, it might sound good on a kazoo.

That could possibly account for it.

[Nick_A]

I'm sorry doc but we'll have to discontinue this thread. It has been taken over by those with the need to destroy. It is a shame because we could have gotten into the whole question of of vibrations and lines of force as they affect the human psyche. The golden ratio would have been a good example as to why it has the effect it does. But as you can see it is impossible so I must register another complaint and request to have this thread removed. It is a shame because we could have shared some interesting ideas but the quality killers won't allow it so it is back to "yo momma sucks."

[Hobbes' Choice]

I'm sorry doc but we'll have to discontinue this thread. It has been taken over by those with the need to destroy. It is a shame because we could have gotten into the whole question of of vibrations and lines of force as they affect the human psyche. The golden ratio would have been a good example as to why it has the effect it does. But as you can see it is impossible so I must register another complaint and request to have this thread removed. It is a shame because we could have shared some interesting ideas but the quality killers won't allow it so it is back to "yo momma sucks."

The least you could have done would have been to say what the fuck you meant by anonymous in the context of music, You area laying the same silly childish game that Immanuel Can does.: Make ridiculous claims then fails to say what he means by them.
It's no wonder no one takes you seriously.

[thedoc]

I'm sorry doc but we'll have to discontinue this thread. It has been taken over by those with the need to destroy. It is a shame because we could have gotten into the whole question of of vibrations and lines of force as they affect the human psyche. The golden ratio would have been a good example as to why it has the effect it does. But as you can see it is impossible so I must register another complaint and request to have this thread removed. It is a shame because we could have shared some interesting ideas but the quality killers won't allow it so it is back to "yo momma sucks."

you can always do what I do, either ignore those who would destroy the thread, or have a little fun with them between the more serious comments, but it's up to you to do what you see fit, just understand that I am here if you want to pursue the topic and ignore everything else. It's not impossible to have a discussion, you just need to scroll past the dross to get to the good stuff.

It might be good to consider the source of the vibrations, lines of force, and the "golden ratio" in order to determine whether it is all the author/composer or if that person had some other kind of help in the creation of the work.

[Hobbes' Choice]

What’s up Doc. Sorry, couldn’t resist. Anyhow, you wrote

N

ick_A wrote:Yes, if no one with the soul of an artist shows up who I can exchange with. And by that I don't mean someone who just expresses themselves.

Nick_A, I haven't given it much thought till now, but I will try to listen to some of the older works and put it into words. BTW I do play some classical music on the piano, and I'll use that to try and get some feel for what you mean. This is a really odd forum, when someone does try to broach a serious subject, you get the kind of responses you have so far, sometimes it seems that you are better off to stick with hostility and abuse, just like everyone else.

The question of the anonymous is difficult if a person hasn’t felt it. I’ve learned that child prodigies exist in math, chess, and music. Why? It dawned on me that these fields are logical. Where chess and math are intellectually logical and connect levels of understanding when perfect, music is emotionally logical. That means the musician or singer under the right conditions can serve to emotionally connect a deeper level of spirituality with our more normal states. This means that music when perfect serves as a channel connecting levels of reality emotionally. We cannot do it with our five senses. Rather it happens in a way the intellect cannot define..

This whole thing is rubbish. I'd expect as much from a person who only counts his senses at a mere five. Savants do not connect more deeply, but are most usually inept and the most basic human understanding.
There are exceptions, and the greatest of those is Beethoven who, as an atheist, composed the greatest and peerless music though he was, by the end of his life, profoundly deaf.