Re: Simulation Theory
Posted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 11:43 pm
Here's another from about two and a half years ago
Freewill and Determinism
Freewill and Determinism
For the discussion of all things philosophical, especially articles in the magazine Philosophy Now.
https://forum.philosophynow.org/
Uh, I'm not a biochemist.S G R wrote:YScience by its nature is based upon reproducible evidence – if you can’t produce it then your original claim was bullshit.
Correct. I have however not made an argument from authority. I have merely suggested a communications protocol, namely using dictionary definitions. If you wanna be a dick about it and make up your own definitions of words to obstruct meaningful discussion, then by all means go ahead. We'll continue the discussion with your definitions if you insist.S G R wrote:Arguments from authority – whether you call them neutral or not – are fallacies.
i blame blame wrote:It is the presence of nutrients which and its metabolism which causes the bacterium to multiply. The metabolism arose after an as yet unknown complicated chemical reaction occurred between ribonucleic acids, proteins and their friends.S G R wrote:It is the lack of support and gravity which starts the boulder falling and the ground which stops the boulder – neither of these things are the boulder.
Let's recap:S G R wrote:And again.
You couldn’t argue against what was said so you change the subject.
S G R wrote:I consider choice to be the ability to start or stop an action and I think that choice is synonymous with life so – freewill is what makes life possible.
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/actioni blame blame wrote:You claim that choice is the ability to start or end an action.
Then a falling boulder makes choices. It starts to fall and then stops. A star makes a choice. It starts nuclear fusion and then stops.Every specific arrangement of matter makes choices: It begins to exist and then stops.
Noun
action (plural actions)
Something done so as to accomplish a purpose.
A way of motion or functioning.
Knead bread with a rocking action.
A fast-paced activity.
an action movie
A mechanism; a moving part or assembly.
a rifle action
(music): The set of moving mechanical parts in a keyboard instrument which transfer the motion of the key to the sound-making device.
(slang) sexual intercourse.
She gave him some action.
The distance separating the strings and the fretboard on the guitar.
(military) Combat.
He saw some action in the Korean War.
(law) A charge or other process in a law court (also called lawsuit and actio).
(mathematics) A homomorphism from a group to a group of automorphisms.
One of the earliest uses of groups, according to lore, was the study of the action of S3 on the equilateral triangle.
S G R wrote:What action does the boulder take that starts and stops the falling?I haven’t any experience of stars starting or stopping or of matter coming into being or ceasing to exist – but then neither have you.
i blame blame wrote:It breaks off the rock and impacts the ground.
I have seen a stellar nursery with my naked eye (the Orion nebula). Astronomers observe supernovae from time to time. 1000 or so years ago, Chinese astronomers and the Anasazi recorded the explosion of a star whose remnants we now call the the Crab nebula.
John wrote:This statement might have helped me understand where you're coming from, or maybe not so let's see.
Would I be right in thinking that you view the bacteria as being different to the boulder because the bacteria is alive and can act, consciously or otherwise, in an independent fashion. I.e. it doesn't need someone to start it rolling down a hill?
If this is the case is it what leads you to claim that the bacteria has free will?
i blame blame wrote:But the boulder doesn't necessarily need someONE to roll it down. It might break off of the mountain due to water in fissures freezing or soemthing. The bacterium also needs another bacterium to "start it", and that one in turn needs another and so on until that first cell which needed proteins and ribonucleic acids coming together in an as yet unknown mechanism.
S G R wrote:It is the lack of support and gravity which starts the boulder falling and the ground which stops the boulder – neither of these things are the boulder.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/actioni blame blame wrote:It is the presence of nutrients which and its metabolism which causes the bacterium to multiply. The metabolism arose after an as yet unknown complicated chemical reaction occurred between ribonucleic acids, proteins and their friends.
If the boulder breaks off the cliff because water in fissures froze and expanded the fissures so that the boulder would no longer be supported by the cliff, then electrostatic forces of the outer electrons of the ice crystals and electrostatic forces of the outer electrons of the molecules and ions and metals of the boulder act against one another. The boulder falls because the planetary body's gravitational force pulls it down. It doesn't fall straight down to the body's center of mass because the electrostatic forces act repellingly against the electrostatic forces of the outer electrons of the slope. The net force resulting from gravitational attraction and electrostatic repulsion causes it to roll down the slope. The water, boulder and rest of the earth all "act" in this scenario.the process or state of acting or of being active: The machine is not in action now.
2.
something done or performed; act; deed.
3.
an act that one consciously wills and that may be characterized by physical or mental activity: a crisis that demands action instead of debate; hoping for constructive action by the landlord.
4.
actions, habitual or usual acts; conduct: He is responsible for his actions.
5.
energetic activity: a man of action.
6.
an exertion of power or force: the action of wind upon a ship's sails.
7.
effect or influence: the action of morphine.
8.
Physiology . a change in organs, tissues, or cells leading to performance of a function, as in muscular contraction.
9.
way or manner of moving: the action of a machine or of a horse.
10.
the mechanism by which something is operated, as that of a gun or a piano.
11.
a military encounter or engagement; battle, skirmish, or the like.
12.
actual engagement in fighting an enemy; military or naval combat: He saw action in Vietnam.
13.
Literature . the main subject or story, as distinguished from an incidental episode.
14.
Theater .
a.
an event or series of events that form part of a dramatic plot: the action of a scene.
b.
one of the three unities. Compare unity ( def. 8 ) .
15.
the gestures or deportment of an actor or speaker.
16.
Fine Arts . the appearance of animation, movement, or emotion given to figures by their attitude, position, or expression.
17.
Law .
a.
a proceeding instituted by one party against another.
b.
the right of bringing it.
18.
Slang .
a.
interesting or exciting activity, often of an illicit nature: He gave us some tips on where the action was.
b.
gambling or the excitement of gambling: The casino usually offers plenty of action.
c.
money bet in gambling, esp. illegally.
19.
Ecclesiastical .
a.
a religious ceremony, esp. a Eucharistic service.
b.
the canon of the Mass.
c.
those parts of a service of worship in which the congregation participates.
–adjective
20.
characterized by brisk or dynamic action: an action car; an action melodrama.
—Idioms
21.
in action,
a.
performing or taking part in a characteristic act: The school baseball team is in action tonight.
b.
working; functioning: His rescuing the child was bravery in action.
22.
out of action, removed from action, as by sudden disability: The star halfback is out of action with a bad knee.
23.
piece of the action, Informal . a share of the proceeds or profits: Cut me in for a piece of the action.
24.
take action,
a.
to start doing something: As soon as we get his decision, we'll take action.
b.
to start a legal procedure.
Then why did you link me Hume's wikipedia entry? If you criticize me for not quoting relevant passages from genetics and biochemistry journals, why do you not bother quoting relevant passages from Hume's work?S G R wrote:I keep on telling you that Wikipedia is not the font of all knowledge. If you want to know what Hume said you may have to look elsewhere.
Whether a course of action is congruent with a set of ethics usually weighs in a cost benefit analysis. What evidence have you that ethics is premised on free will?S G R wrote:No, that is an aspect of value, the subject matter of ethics – premised upon freewill.i blame blame wrote:That's precisely what choice is. A cost-benefit calculation in relation to some predefined goal.
Again, I have merely offered you a suggestion on how you could improve communication with others. It seems that you haven't understood what an argument from authority actually is:S G R wrote:So now you’re arguing from your own claim to authority – bullshit all the way down.i blame blame wrote:A redundant idea, because those words already have definitions. Here's a better idea: Make up your own words for your new definitions rather than taking pre-existing ones.
I have never said the definitions of dictionaries are "true". I have suggested that since those are the definitions with the largest consensus, it eases a conversation to use those, whereas making up one's own definitions and later telling conversation partners what those definitions are, hinders the course of the debate.Source A says that p is true.
Source A is authoritative.
Therefore, p is true.
Are you serious? Did you not read the very quote you quoted in which points out a definition that ain't a chimera? Many who believe in free will do however claim that it is not determined by physical reality (or, if you're an idealist monist, determined by whatever determines the physical reality) i.e. the brain and thus believe in a chimera. I've still not heard a precise and concise definition of "free will" from you.S G R wrote:That’s quite funny because you didn’t finish the quote:i blame blame wrote:Not every definition is meaningless. Here's a possible, somewhat meaningful one:You do realise that this argument applies to you? That it is your demand about the definition of freewill that is the chimera?SkepticWiki wrote: When someone demands that in order for his will to be free, it must be free of his brain, his mind, or whatever he imagines instantiates his will, what he is asking is that his will should be so free that it's free of his will. He is chasing after a chimera.
I suggest you learn what logical fallacies are.S G R wrote:But your criticisms are based upon bullshit and your ridicule is ad hominem, another fallacy – bullshit upon bullshit.
I have not argued that your claims are wrong because they are ridiculous.An ad hominem (Latin: "to the man"), also known as argumentum ad hominem, is an attempt to link the validity of a premise to a characteristic or belief of the person advocating the premise
Actually, I wasn't being entirely truthful. The fact that I am almost certain you won't let go of your ridiculous assertions, yet I keep replying to you makes me kinda dumb. Also, I fell for your simple trick of ensnaring me further into a discussion I believe to be pointless after I replied with the facepalm.S G R wrote:Well maybe you should – given the evidence of what you’ve put forward here.
The simulacrum is never that which conceals the truth — it is the truth which conceals that there is none. The simulacrum is true.
- Ecclesiastes
Representation starts from the principle that the sign and the real are equivalent (even if this equivalence is Utopian, it is a fundamental axiom). Conversely, simulation starts from the Utopia of this principle of equivalence, from the radical negation of the sign as value, from the sign as reversion and death sentence of every reference. Whereas representation tries to absorb simulation by interpreting it as false representation, simulation envelops the whole edifice of representation as itself a simulacrum.
These would be the successive phases of the image:
1.It is the reflection of a basic reality.
2.It masks and perverts a basic reality.
3.It masks the absence of a basic reality.
4.It bears no relation to any reality whatever: it is its own pure simulacrum.
At least his title got it pretty right. "Our Cognitive Framework as a Quantum computer"HexHammer wrote:This isn't knowledge per se, and defiantly not philosophy! This is pure nonsense and babble most likely asked from a skitzo mind.
WTF are you talking about?!?!?Ginkgo wrote:At least his title got it pretty right. "Our Cognitive Framework as a Quantum computer"HexHammer wrote:This isn't knowledge per se, and defiantly not philosophy! This is pure nonsense and babble most likely asked from a skitzo mind.
This idea is better expressed in terms of the "Orchestrated objective reduction" proposal.
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orchestra ... _reduction
Early research has confirmed that microtubules do carry out a quantum function.
HexHammer wrote:WTF are you talking about?!?!?Ginkgo wrote:At least his title got it pretty right. "Our Cognitive Framework as a Quantum computer"HexHammer wrote:This isn't knowledge per se, and defiantly not philosophy! This is pure nonsense and babble most likely asked from a skitzo mind.
This idea is better expressed in terms of the "Orchestrated objective reduction" proposal.
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orchestra ... _reduction
Early research has confirmed that microtubules do carry out a quantum function.
I like pizza and I think all Concords should belong to me!Ginkgo wrote:Didn't you read the wiki article?
I also like pizza.HexHammer wrote:I like pizza and I think all Concords should belong to me!Ginkgo wrote:Didn't you read the wiki article?
Ginkgo you owe a million dollars!
I answerd to OP, then suddenly you brought up something arbitrary to me.Ginkgo wrote:Come to think of it... what does this have to do with the topic?
HexHammer wrote:I answerd to OP, then suddenly you brought up something arbitrary to me.Ginkgo wrote:Come to think of it... what does this have to do with the topic?
Eeeeh?Ginkgo wrote:I am suggesting there is an element of accuracy contained within the OP.HexHammer wrote:I answerd to OP, then suddenly you brought up something arbitrary to me.