Greatest I am wrote: ↑Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
Age wrote: ↑Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:15 pm
Greatest I am wrote: ↑Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:03 pm
Indeed. Yin without Yang is a foolish notion.
Regards
DL
There can be yin with yang and still NO need to do some thing.
You do NOT have to do evil but you choose to, and 'you' can still exist.
We do have to do what some will see as evil to survive.
If you want to make a statement, claim it to be true like you have done here, and want it accepted and understood, then you have to give some examples, and then wait for clarifying questions.
Why do only 'some' see what 'you' do, to survive, as evil?
What do the "others" see?
What examples of 'evil' are you talking about here?
And, what does 'evil' actually mean, to you?
Until you start explaining, then your statement is clearly wrong and false, to me.
Greatest I am wrote: ↑Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pmThat is rather a long story.
If it is worth sharing, then the earlier you start then the better.
Greatest I am wrote: ↑Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm Can you help but do evil?
I do not see how. Do you?
And if you cannot, why would God punish you?
WHAT are you talking about here?
WHAT is THIS about, and what is it in relation to exactly?
Greatest I am wrote: ↑Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by putting forward their free will argument and placing all the blame on mankind.
Who cares what people who you label and call "christians" "are always trying to absolve"? If you want thee Truth, then stick to what you SEE and KNOW.
By the way WHO do you put the blame on for what 'you', human beings, do?
Greatest I am wrote: ↑Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm That usually sounds like ----God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy. Such statements simply avoid God's culpability as the author and creator of human nature.
Let us start by you clearly explaining WHAT 'human nature' IS exactly?
Then you explaining HOW God is culpable? Do you even think God is real?
Do you even think human beings have 'free will'?
Just maybe, as I stated earlier, it is 'you', and YOUR BELIEFS, that is STOPPING you from SEEING the actual Truth of things here.
How about you state your BELIEFS first, then it will become CLEAR to every one reading this WHY "it is so hard" for you to chat with "others" about these type of things?
Greatest I am wrote: ↑Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm Free will is only the ability to choose.
I agree. Are you saying that human beings do not have the ability to choose?
It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). [/quote]
Was that even being questioned?
Greatest I am wrote: ↑Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place.
Okay if you say so. So, why do we not LOOK AT this?
Again, what do 'you' propose is the 'nature' given to human beings by God?
The story of adam and eve can be simply explained, very easily. That is; to those who are OPEN to hearing and listening to it.
Greatest I am wrote: ↑Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.
Okay. So you have concluded that God is capable. I say God is responsible for EVERY thing. So, now what do we do?
Do you want to keep following your own thoughts, assumptions and beliefs? Or, do you want to LISTEN to other perspectives of things?
If God is FULLY culpable, and thus also FULLY responsible, and God being omnipotent and ALL-knowing, then maybe just LISTENING to some thing else other than your own ASSUMPTIONS and BELIEFS, then you WILL learn HOW every thing can be corrected and put back onto the right path?
Greatest I am wrote: ↑Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm If all do evil/sin by nature then, the evil/sin nature is dominant.
WHY is this necessarily so?
If the logic to argue this is sound and valid, then, If all do good by nature, then the good nature is dominant.
Your logic and argument does not work.
By the way it could very easily be argued that ALL do good, but only some do evil/sin/bad.
Greatest I am wrote: ↑Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm If not, we would have at least some who would not do evil/sin. Can we then help but do evil?
Yes.
Greatest I am wrote: ↑Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm I do not see how. Do you?
Yes.
Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that evil and sin is all human generated and in this sense, I agree with Christians, but for completely different reasons. [/quote]
If you are at all interested I agree with ALL the truth in every thing and disagree with ALL the falsehoods in every thing.
Also what IS a 'gnostic christian naturalist' exactly?
Greatest I am wrote: ↑Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm Evil is mankind’s responsibility and not some imaginary God’s.
Okay. So now we will have to LOOK AT the above from another perspective.
Greatest I am wrote: ↑Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm Free will is something that can only be taken. Free will cannot be given not even by a God unless it has been forcibly withheld.
Okay, if you say so. But how about 'free will' is just some thing human beings have?
By the way, to me, human beings having a 'free will' nature is completely equal to human beings also having a 'deterministic' nature. Both 'free will' and 'determined' are just naturally within human beings. This is just how they have evolved in creation.
Greatest I am wrote: ↑Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm Much has been written to explain evil and sin but I see as a natural part of evolution.
Just about ALL that has been written to explain 'evil' and 'sin' is a misconstrued version of thee Truth of things.
Greatest I am wrote: ↑Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm Consider.
First, let us eliminate what some see as evil.
Perfect.
Greatest I am wrote: ↑Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created. Without intent to do evil, no act should be called evil.
In secular courts, this is called mens rea. Latin for an evil mind or intent and without it, the court will not find someone guilty even if they know that they are the perpetrator of the act.
Evil then is only human to human when they know they are doing evil and intend harm.
Okay. For interest sake I just call this 'bad', compared to 'wrong'. To me, intending to hurt or harm is 'bad', while unintentionally doing hurt or harm is 'wrong'.
Greatest I am wrote: ↑Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate.
'
Agreed. We can do one OR the other.
We do what we WANT and CHOOSE to do.
Greatest I am wrote: ↑Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil, at all times.
'
Or, some one might be, or is 'trying to' be, cooperating with "others", while ALL of the "others" just are, or are 'trying to' be, competing with that one?
NOT EVERY one has to be doing what EVERY one ELSE is doing.
Greatest I am wrote: ↑Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.
Why?
How is competing, or in your words "doing evil", keeping us from extinction. On first glance, to me, this seems absurd and a contradiction of terms.
Greatest I am wrote: ↑Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.
So, to you, "We would likely go extinct without competition and evil".
Now, this is probably the biggest example of an attempt at 'trying to' "justify" one's obviously wrong and bad or evil behaviors that I have ever seen and heard.
The logic that was used to reason out, which led to this conclusion would make great reading. Would you like to share the logic and reasoning you used to arrive at such a conclusion?
But first let us just hear again what one human being uses as a "justification" for ALL human beings to just keep on doing evil: "We would likely go extinct without competition and evil. In other words: If you do not keep on competing with "others" and doing evil, then we would likely go extinct".
Do you pass on this "justified" piece of advice directly like this to the children you know?
Greatest I am wrote: ↑Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, you should see that what Christians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanks for being available to us.
But I am NOT a believer in any thing other than; thee Real and True Self, which is able to accomplish any thing that It sets out to do.
Greatest I am wrote: ↑Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm Wherever it came from, God or nature, without evolution we would go extinct.
Is there any difference between 'God' and 'Nature'?
What I SEE is; without evolution 'we', human beings, would not be HERE-NOW. But this is NOT to say; without evolution 'we', human beings, can STILL go extinct.
Greatest I am wrote: ↑Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm We must do good and evil.
If you say we MUST do good and evil, then we MUST continue to do good AND 'evil'. Thank you for this "worldly and wise" piece of advice. I will use it as a "justification" EVERY time from now on for ALL the 'evil' I MUST continue to do.
Greatest I am wrote: ↑Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue.
Nor on any other issue that I can SEE and have observed either. I agree there is NO conflict between Nature AND God on any thing.
Greatest I am wrote: ↑Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm This is how things are and should be.
Is there any possibility that this is NOT how things are and should be on ALL of what you have written above? Or, are you just incapable of being wrong any where?
Greatest I am wrote: ↑Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm We all must do what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to this competition.
To 'WHAT' competition.
I do NOT SEE that there HAS TO be competition ANY where. I have certainly NOT observed ANY reason for WHY there is competition nor a NEED for competition also. However, in saying that, I do observe adult human beings continuously competing, which is obviously leading tremendously to their downfall.
But there IS original 'sin'.
Greatest I am wrote: ↑Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm Doing evil then is actually forced on us by evolution and the need to survive.
As I have said previously; Human beings will 'try' absolutely any thing to align things with their ALREADY HELD BELIEFS and ASSUMPTIONS, and to 'try to' "justify" their wrong doings.
This here is another great example of the type of misbehavior used by the human being animal.
Greatest I am wrote: ↑Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm Our default position is to cooperate or to do good.
So WHY do 'you' NOT stay on your default position, instead of deviating away from it?
No. I can always only do good and NOT do evil.
Okay. This might be because you LOOK AT things from your own assumptions and beliefs, and therefore you are NOT fully OPEN.
Yes. It is very easy to SEE how to NOT do evil. But there are some other things that you need to learn and know first.
Greatest I am wrote: ↑Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pmAnd if you cannot, why would God punish you?
Regards
DL
Who is distorted or twisted enough to think or believe that God is punishing them anyway?