Numinosity

[ThinkOfOne]

Music can certainly trigger strong emotions, as can many things, but I don't think they're quite the same.

I had in mind some of the music by Mozart or Arvo Part as a couple of examples:

"The 24th opens with a truly remarkable theme. It sounds as though it might have been composed 150 years later, with, what was for Mozart’s day, an outrageously chromatic melody that uses all 12 notes of the chromatic scale. So unique is it that in 1953 the German composer Giselher Klebe (1925 – 2009) used it as a tone row in his 12-tone Symphony for Strings. And yet, it’s stunningly moving, hauntingly beautiful in a dark and numinous way."

From <https://classicalmusiconly.com/discussi ... h-f829d48d>


Indeed, his deeply held Eastern Orthodox faith has inspired Arvo Pärt to capture an ethereal, numinous quality, ordinarily absent in more conventional forms of classical music, elevating his exquisite oeuvre to an otherworldly quality akin to the realm of the gods.

From <https://www.theculturium.com/arvo-part-silentium/>

Composers of been aware of evoking this feeling for quite some time.

Can you articulate what you think is different?

The feeling I'm talking about seems specific to place. If the word numinous is considered to be too broad in its usage, then how about sacred, or enchanted? Not in a supernatural sense, though, because I don't think anything is above or beyond nature.

Let's try this again. No matter what label you give it, the underlying feeling is what it is. In your mind, what is different between that feeling when triggered by music vs when triggered by a place? From my experience, for all intents and purposes they are the same. Can you articulate what you think is different about that feeling in and of itself?

[Agent Smith]

Perhaps numinosity justifies some paths we take in life. Analogies tend to both clarify and obscure and that's a bummer! On the whole, I'd say the feeling, it is one, is characterized as being both within and without (someone described stone circles in a similar way). How does science weigh in?

[Maia]

I had in mind some of the music by Mozart or Arvo Part as a couple of examples:


Composers of been aware of evoking this feeling for quite some time.

Can you articulate what you think is different?

The feeling I'm talking about seems specific to place. If the word numinous is considered to be too broad in its usage, then how about sacred, or enchanted? Not in a supernatural sense, though, because I don't think anything is above or beyond nature.

Let's try this again. No matter what label you give it, the underlying feeling is what it is. In your mind, what is different between that feeling when triggered by music vs when triggered by a place? From my experience, for all intents and purposes they are the same. Can you articulate what you think is different about that feeling in and of itself?

The feeling that's specific to certain places seems more physical in nature. Yes, some music can evoke physical reactions, but it's obvious that you're triggering those reactions yourself, by your own emotional state. For example, you can control when you have them, by deciding to play the music or not. The feeling I'm referring to is completely involuntary. It also seems far more similar to what you get in a good thunderstorm, of which there was one here last night, incidentally, which again makes me inevitably think of electro-magnetism. It's like the sudden shock you get when you touch something with an unexpected static charge, though with added emotional and even spiritual meaning, though again, I don't define spiritual as anything supernatural.

[Agent Smith]

There's a palpable desire to swing the balance to achieve an end. Petabytes of information lie waiting, in archives, to be mined, refined, and

May ya succeed!

Numinous experiences can be made sense of (?) if ya only know where ta look. I claim no privileged perch with a better view, but I do know, perhaps better to say cogito I know ... bunnies are well liked.

[Iwannaplato]

I had in mind some of the music by Mozart or Arvo Part as a couple of examples:


Composers of been aware of evoking this feeling for quite some time.

Can you articulate what you think is different?

The feeling I'm talking about seems specific to place. If the word numinous is considered to be too broad in its usage, then how about sacred, or enchanted? Not in a supernatural sense, though, because I don't think anything is above or beyond nature.

Let's try this again. No matter what label you give it, the underlying feeling is what it is. In your mind, what is different between that feeling when triggered by music vs when triggered by a place? From my experience, for all intents and purposes they are the same. Can you articulate what you think is different about that feeling in and of itself?

How are you and she going to compare and contrast feelings? How would you know they are the same? How would she know that her reactions to place that she calls numinous is different or the same as your feelings when listening to the music you mention?

How are we to know that the same processes are happening: in our brains, in the relationship between place and person and between music and person?

How can one say oh it's really just......? with any certainty at all.

[iambiguous]

You've presumably heard the phrase, no news is good news. Well, the reverse is true too.

Not sure what you mean. Suppose, for example, the Supreme Court here in America issues a ruling that strikes down affirmative action. As they recently did in regard to abortion.

Well, until they do, and someone is in favor of affirmative action, then no news might be construed as good news. But I believe the ruling is expected any day now and for one side it will be deemed good news and for the other side bad news.

Numinosity then.

To the extent that I understand it, the difference between you and I here is that I believe that individual value judgments relating to things like affirmative action and abortion are rooted subjectively and existentially in dasein. And while you will agree with me that had your own life been different you might have come to different conclusions about them [and even Paganism itself], you are in possession of this "deep down inside you" spiritual/intuitive Self that "somehow" transcends dasein.

But, again, that's only a more or less educated guess on my part. I may be way off the mark here.

And that's the part derived, in my view, from the fact that the life you have lived and live now is one I can never really grasp "in depth" because my own life was and is so very, very different.

Here, I not only accept "failures to communicate" regarding "I" in the is/ought world of value judgments...I expect them.

I don't believe in "dasein" so have no need to transcend it.

That's just a word I use to describe the manner in which each of us is, existentially, "thrown adventitiously" at birth out into a particular world historically and culturally; and in regard to our own uniquely personal indoctrination as a child and our own uniquely personal experiences and relationships and access to information and knowledge that we accumulate as an adult.

And the part where you agreed with me that this is no less applicable to you. But that you have come to acquire [through Nature, through the Goddess] this deeper more intuitive, spiritual Self able to sustain what from my frame of mind is another rendition of objectivism.

It's the part of your psychology that, from my own rooted existentially in dasein frame of mind, comforts and consoles you. That anchors you to a Reality that allows you to feel connected to something that is far, far bigger than your own utterly insignificant "self" in the staggering vastness of "all there is".

Again, there are many, many, many, many others...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_r ... traditions
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_p ... ideologies
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_s ... philosophy

...who have in turn found their own paths here.

A path that I would like to find again myself.

[Maia]

Not sure what you mean. Suppose, for example, the Supreme Court here in America issues a ruling that strikes down affirmative action. As they recently did in regard to abortion.

Well, until they do, and someone is in favor of affirmative action, then no news might be construed as good news. But I believe the ruling is expected any day now and for one side it will be deemed good news and for the other side bad news.

Numinosity then.

To the extent that I understand it, the difference between you and I here is that I believe that individual value judgments relating to things like affirmative action and abortion are rooted subjectively and existentially in dasein. And while you will agree with me that had your own life been different you might have come to different conclusions about them [and even Paganism itself], you are in possession of this "deep down inside you" spiritual/intuitive Self that "somehow" transcends dasein.

But, again, that's only a more or less educated guess on my part. I may be way off the mark here.

And that's the part derived, in my view, from the fact that the life you have lived and live now is one I can never really grasp "in depth" because my own life was and is so very, very different.

Here, I not only accept "failures to communicate" regarding "I" in the is/ought world of value judgments...I expect them.

I don't believe in "dasein" so have no need to transcend it.

That's just a word I use to describe the manner in which each of us is, existentially, "thrown adventitiously" at birth out into a particular world historically and culturally; and in regard to our own uniquely personal indoctrination as a child and our own uniquely personal experiences and relationships and access to information and knowledge that we accumulate as an adult.

And the part where you agreed with me that this is no less applicable to you. But that you have come to acquire [through Nature, through the Goddess] this deeper more intuitive, spiritual Self able to sustain what from my frame of mind is another rendition of objectivism.

It's the part of your psychology that, from my own rooted existentially in dasein frame of mind, comforts and consoles you. That anchors you to a Reality that allows you to feel connected to something that is far, far bigger than your own utterly insignificant "self" in the staggering vastness of "all there is".

Again, there are many, many, many, many others...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_r ... traditions
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_p ... ideologies
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_s ... philosophy

...who have in turn found their own paths here.

A path that I would like to find again myself.

I know what you mean by it, but you have elevated it to the status of a religious dogma.

[ThinkOfOne]

The feeling I'm talking about seems specific to place. If the word numinous is considered to be too broad in its usage, then how about sacred, or enchanted? Not in a supernatural sense, though, because I don't think anything is above or beyond nature.

Let's try this again. No matter what label you give it, the underlying feeling is what it is. In your mind, what is different between that feeling when triggered by music vs when triggered by a place? From my experience, for all intents and purposes they are the same. Can you articulate what you think is different about that feeling in and of itself?

The feeling that's specific to certain places seems more physical in nature. Yes, some music can evoke physical reactions, but it's obvious that you're triggering those reactions yourself, by your own emotional state. For example, you can control when you have them, by deciding to play the music or not. The feeling I'm referring to is completely involuntary. It also seems far more similar to what you get in a good thunderstorm, of which there was one here last night, incidentally, which again makes me inevitably think of electro-magnetism. It's like the sudden shock you get when you touch something with an unexpected static charge, though with added emotional and even spiritual meaning, though again, I don't define spiritual as anything supernatural.

Just as someone can decide to play music or not, someone can decide to return to a place that gives them a numinous feeling. They can trigger those reactions themselves. With music it's no less involuntary. A person goes to a concert having never heard any of the music before. With some music they get an involuntary reaction. A reaction they describe as "numinous". A person goes to a place they have never been before. They get an involuntary reaction. A reaction they describe as numinous. What's the difference?

Once again:
In your mind, what is different between that feeling when triggered by music vs when triggered by a place? From my experience, for all intents and purposes they are the same. Can you articulate what you think is different about that feeling in and of itself?

Thus far, your attempts to answer, for all intents and purposes, boil down to you feel they are different, but are unable to articulate the difference about the quality of that feeling in and of itself.

[ThinkOfOne]

The feeling I'm talking about seems specific to place. If the word numinous is considered to be too broad in its usage, then how about sacred, or enchanted? Not in a supernatural sense, though, because I don't think anything is above or beyond nature.

Let's try this again. No matter what label you give it, the underlying feeling is what it is. In your mind, what is different between that feeling when triggered by music vs when triggered by a place? From my experience, for all intents and purposes they are the same. Can you articulate what you think is different about that feeling in and of itself?

How are you and she going to compare and contrast feelings? How would you know they are the same? How would she know that her reactions to place that she calls numinous is different or the same as your feelings when listening to the music you mention?

How are we to know that the same processes are happening: in our brains, in the relationship between place and person and between music and person?

How can one say oh it's really just......? with any certainty at all.

Wasn't asking her to "compare and contrast" her feelings with mine. I was asking her to "compare and contrast" her own feelings.

[Maia]

Let's try this again. No matter what label you give it, the underlying feeling is what it is. In your mind, what is different between that feeling when triggered by music vs when triggered by a place? From my experience, for all intents and purposes they are the same. Can you articulate what you think is different about that feeling in and of itself?

The feeling that's specific to certain places seems more physical in nature. Yes, some music can evoke physical reactions, but it's obvious that you're triggering those reactions yourself, by your own emotional state. For example, you can control when you have them, by deciding to play the music or not. The feeling I'm referring to is completely involuntary. It also seems far more similar to what you get in a good thunderstorm, of which there was one here last night, incidentally, which again makes me inevitably think of electro-magnetism. It's like the sudden shock you get when you touch something with an unexpected static charge, though with added emotional and even spiritual meaning, though again, I don't define spiritual as anything supernatural.

Just as someone can decide to play music or not, someone can decide to return to a place that gives them a numinous feeling. They can trigger those reactions themselves. With music it's no less involuntary. A person goes to a concert having never heard any of the music before. With some music they get an involuntary reaction. A reaction they describe as "numinous". A person goes to a place they have never been before. They get an involuntary reaction. A reaction they describe as numinous. What's the difference?

Once again:
In your mind, what is different between that feeling when triggered by music vs when triggered by a place? From my experience, for all intents and purposes they are the same. Can you articulate what you think is different about that feeling in and of itself?

Thus far, your attempts to answer, for all intents and purposes, boil down to you feel they are different, but are unable to articulate the difference about the quality of that feeling in and of itself.

Well, as I said, it's more physical in nature, and there seems to be an electro-magnetic element to it. That's not what I get with music, nor indeed dreams, which nevertheless can sometimes have a very powerful emotional effect.

[Iwannaplato]

Wasn't asking her to "compare and contrast" her feelings with mine. I was asking her to "compare and contrast" her own feelings.

Ah, ok, apologies.
As a tangent I can have powerful experiences with places (generally in nature) and also with music. Someone mentioned Arvo Part, some of whose works I love. There is a difference from what I experience in nature. In music I feel like it can take me back to older experiences or even combine experiences or sort of play me like an instrument. I might even use the word numinous for some of these experiences. In nature I feel like I am in the presence of an entity or entities.

Both my experiences of music and my experiences in nature are very, very diverse and of course often pretty mundane even with works or in places that at other times have different effects.

But music seems to be eliciting something in me, even when it is something I would call spiritualish. While nature seems like direct contact with some other, some others.

[iambiguous]

I don't believe in "dasein" so have no need to transcend it.

That's just a word I use to describe the manner in which each of us is, existentially, "thrown adventitiously" at birth out into a particular world historically and culturally; and in regard to our own uniquely personal indoctrination as a child and our own uniquely personal experiences and relationships and access to information and knowledge that we accumulate as an adult.

And the part where you agreed with me that this is no less applicable to you. But that you have come to acquire [through Nature, through the Goddess] this deeper more intuitive, spiritual Self able to sustain what from my frame of mind is another rendition of objectivism.

It's the part of your psychology that, from my own rooted existentially in dasein frame of mind, comforts and consoles you. That anchors you to a Reality that allows you to feel connected to something that is far, far bigger than your own utterly insignificant "self" in the staggering vastness of "all there is".

Again, there are many, many, many, many others...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_r ... traditions
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_p ... ideologies
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_s ... philosophy

...who have in turn found their own paths here.

A path that I would like to find again myself.

I know what you mean by it, but you have elevated it to the status of a religious dogma.

Well, from my frame of mind, that is ridiculous. But if, from your frame of mind, that is actually what you believe given our many, many exchanges over the years then I can only assume this comes back to how little we can truly grasp about each other given the very different lives that we have lived. That and the part where we both agreed that above all else we would make every effort to avoid causing others pain and suffering given the behaviors we choose.

[ThinkOfOne]

The feeling that's specific to certain places seems more physical in nature. Yes, some music can evoke physical reactions, but it's obvious that you're triggering those reactions yourself, by your own emotional state. For example, you can control when you have them, by deciding to play the music or not. The feeling I'm referring to is completely involuntary. It also seems far more similar to what you get in a good thunderstorm, of which there was one here last night, incidentally, which again makes me inevitably think of electro-magnetism. It's like the sudden shock you get when you touch something with an unexpected static charge, though with added emotional and even spiritual meaning, though again, I don't define spiritual as anything supernatural.

Just as someone can decide to play music or not, someone can decide to return to a place that gives them a numinous feeling. They can trigger those reactions themselves. With music it's no less involuntary. A person goes to a concert having never heard any of the music before. With some music they get an involuntary reaction. A reaction they describe as "numinous". A person goes to a place they have never been before. They get an involuntary reaction. A reaction they describe as numinous. What's the difference?

Once again:
In your mind, what is different between that feeling when triggered by music vs when triggered by a place? From my experience, for all intents and purposes they are the same. Can you articulate what you think is different about that feeling in and of itself?

Thus far, your attempts to answer, for all intents and purposes, boil down to you feel they are different, but are unable to articulate the difference about the quality of that feeling in and of itself.

Well, as I said, it's more physical in nature, and there seems to be an electro-magnetic element to it. That's not what I get with music, nor indeed dreams, which nevertheless can sometimes have a very powerful emotional effect.

Electro-magnetic element? That hasn't been detected by any instruments?

You seem to believe that there's something special about some places above and beyond a quirk in the nervous system. What of an eerie feeling from certain places? Also from some undetected physical force?

From what I gather, both believers and non-believers can get a numinous feeling from old cavernous cathedrals. Believers also ascribe it a "spiritual meaning", in their case the presence of God. Also from some undetected electro-magnetic force?

[Maia]

That's just a word I use to describe the manner in which each of us is, existentially, "thrown adventitiously" at birth out into a particular world historically and culturally; and in regard to our own uniquely personal indoctrination as a child and our own uniquely personal experiences and relationships and access to information and knowledge that we accumulate as an adult.

And the part where you agreed with me that this is no less applicable to you. But that you have come to acquire [through Nature, through the Goddess] this deeper more intuitive, spiritual Self able to sustain what from my frame of mind is another rendition of objectivism.

It's the part of your psychology that, from my own rooted existentially in dasein frame of mind, comforts and consoles you. That anchors you to a Reality that allows you to feel connected to something that is far, far bigger than your own utterly insignificant "self" in the staggering vastness of "all there is".

Again, there are many, many, many, many others...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_r ... traditions
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_p ... ideologies
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_s ... philosophy

...who have in turn found their own paths here.

A path that I would like to find again myself.

I know what you mean by it, but you have elevated it to the status of a religious dogma.

Well, from my frame of mind, that is ridiculous. But if, from your frame of mind, that is actually what you believe given our many, many exchanges over the years then I can only assume this comes back to how little we can truly grasp about each other given the very different lives that we have lived. That and the part where we both agreed that above all else we would make every effort to avoid causing others pain and suffering given the behaviors we choose.

We can try, though. It may not be possible to fully understand what other people are thinking, but language has evolved for this exact purpose.

[Maia]

Just as someone can decide to play music or not, someone can decide to return to a place that gives them a numinous feeling. They can trigger those reactions themselves. With music it's no less involuntary. A person goes to a concert having never heard any of the music before. With some music they get an involuntary reaction. A reaction they describe as "numinous". A person goes to a place they have never been before. They get an involuntary reaction. A reaction they describe as numinous. What's the difference?

Once again:
In your mind, what is different between that feeling when triggered by music vs when triggered by a place? From my experience, for all intents and purposes they are the same. Can you articulate what you think is different about that feeling in and of itself?

Thus far, your attempts to answer, for all intents and purposes, boil down to you feel they are different, but are unable to articulate the difference about the quality of that feeling in and of itself.

Well, as I said, it's more physical in nature, and there seems to be an electro-magnetic element to it. That's not what I get with music, nor indeed dreams, which nevertheless can sometimes have a very powerful emotional effect.

Electro-magnetic element? That hasn't been detected by any instruments?

You seem to believe that there's something special about some places above and beyond a quirk in the nervous system. What of an eerie feeling from certain places? Also from some undetected physical force?

From what I gather, both believers and non-believers can get a numinous feeling from old cavernous cathedrals. Believers also ascribe it a "spiritual meaning", in their case the presence of God. Also from some undetected electro-magnetic force?

Yes, eerie feelings from certain places are included. I don't think the force is undetected, though. Dowsers detect it all the time. I've even had a go at dowsing myself.

Churches usually leave me pretty cold, but if you want a practical answer as to why some of them could evoke this feeling, then consider that many of the medieval ones were built on pre-existing sacred places. There's a famous letter from Pope Gregory from around AD 600 instructing his representatives in England, converting the Pagan inhabitants, to do exactly that.