my own reality is now in question

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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Age
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Re: my own reality is now in question

Post by Age »

Flannel Jesus wrote: Sat Feb 01, 2025 8:27 am Age receives cock
LOL

And, 'this' is SUPPOSED TO BE A 'philosophy forum' OF ALL PLACES.

So, if this is what 'they' would say and write in A 'public philosophy forum', then you could very easily imagine how 'they' spoke and wrote to each other in ALL of the other forums, in public and in private.

'They' were SO DELUDED that some ACTUALLY BELIEVED that they did NOT RECEIVE 'Reality', Itself. Which, OBVIOUSLY MEANS that they BELIEVED that they were RECEIVING something ELSE, instead.
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Re: my own reality is now in question

Post by Gary Childress »

accelafine wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2025 11:11 pm
mack7963 wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2025 8:42 am 'how do i know my entire history wasn't downloaded into my brain this morning, i hope someone can help me understand how to make sense of this.
You don't know. There's actually a reasonably high chance that it was. You should listen to Donald Hoffman some time. He's pretty convincing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=reYdQYZ9Rj4&t=4s
He's definitely convincing. I have no idea what he is saying but he speaks as though he's backed by some seriously incontrovertible evidence. It's kind of funny, I gave up on ever understanding science when I encountered all the quantum physics made simple books in the 1990s. I realized then that there was something to science that I would never know the answers to. That some would forever be talking above the clouds as far as I'm concerned.
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Re: my own reality is now in question

Post by Age »

Gary Childress wrote: Sat Feb 01, 2025 8:47 am
accelafine wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2025 11:11 pm
mack7963 wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2025 8:42 am 'how do i know my entire history wasn't downloaded into my brain this morning, i hope someone can help me understand how to make sense of this.
You don't know. There's actually a reasonably high chance that it was. You should listen to Donald Hoffman some time. He's pretty convincing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=reYdQYZ9Rj4&t=4s
He's definitely convincing. I have no idea what he is saying but he speaks as though he's backed by some seriously incontrovertible evidence.
And, 'this' 'sounding convincing' was a VERY COMMON TRAIT among the adult population, in the days when this was being written, although they had NO ACTUAL idea NOR clue as to what they were SAYING and/or PROPOSING. Like, for example, the sun revolves around the earth and that the Universe began and is expanding.
Gary Childress wrote: Sat Feb 01, 2025 8:47 am It's kind of funny, I gave up on ever understanding science when I encountered all the quantum physics made simple books in the 1990s. I realized then that there was something to science that I would never know the answers to. That some would forever be talking above the clouds as far as I'm concerned.
This is BECAUSE some REALLY DO NOT HAVE ANY idea NOR clue as to what they are SAYING and CLAIMING, like, for example, when people speak of, 'In the early Universe'.

Now, there NEVER was such a thing, but this does NOT STOP some people speaking and writing as though there was. And, just because they might SOUND CONVINCING NEVER MEANS that they ACTUALLY DO KNOW what they are speaking about and saying.
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accelafine
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Re: my own reality is now in question

Post by accelafine »

Gary Childress wrote: Sat Feb 01, 2025 8:47 am
accelafine wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2025 11:11 pm
mack7963 wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2025 8:42 am 'how do i know my entire history wasn't downloaded into my brain this morning, i hope someone can help me understand how to make sense of this.
You don't know. There's actually a reasonably high chance that it was. You should listen to Donald Hoffman some time. He's pretty convincing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=reYdQYZ9Rj4&t=4s
He's definitely convincing. I have no idea what he is saying but he speaks as though he's backed by some seriously incontrovertible evidence. It's kind of funny, I gave up on ever understanding science when I encountered all the quantum physics made simple books in the 1990s. I realized then that there was something to science that I would never know the answers to. That some would forever be talking above the clouds as far as I'm concerned.
:lol: What he's basically saying is that our 'reality' is simply an 'interface', something we have created. An artificial 'reality' that hides a much deeper reality--a 'consciousness' that we are all part of. He likens it to a computer desktop, where we have no clue about, and don't need to know, all the workings that are going on that give us the pretty icons etc. we see on our screens. There are several quantum theories of reality that are theoretically sound but can't be tested empirically (yet). He says that reality is not part of space/time and uses the word 'doomed' a lot when referring to 'space/time' in the universe of classical physics that we are familiar with.
Age
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Re: my own reality is now in question

Post by Age »

accelafine wrote: Sat Feb 01, 2025 9:35 am
Gary Childress wrote: Sat Feb 01, 2025 8:47 am
accelafine wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2025 11:11 pm

You don't know. There's actually a reasonably high chance that it was. You should listen to Donald Hoffman some time. He's pretty convincing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=reYdQYZ9Rj4&t=4s
He's definitely convincing. I have no idea what he is saying but he speaks as though he's backed by some seriously incontrovertible evidence. It's kind of funny, I gave up on ever understanding science when I encountered all the quantum physics made simple books in the 1990s. I realized then that there was something to science that I would never know the answers to. That some would forever be talking above the clouds as far as I'm concerned.
:lol: What he's basically saying is that our 'reality' is simply an 'interface', something we have created.
OF COURSE you human beings 'own reality' is just some thing that you have created. For example;

The earth is flat.
The sun revolves around the earth.
The Universe began.
The Universe is expanding.

These are all CREATED so-called 'realities'. But, they are, OBVIOUSLY, NOT 'Reality', Itself.

And, 'those human being created realities' are among a countless number of other ones.

However, 'Reality' WILL ALWAYS STAND ON Its OWN and BY Itself. you human beings COME-TO-KNOW, and UNDERSTAND, 'Reality', Itself. Some just QUICKER than others.

Also, and quite humorously ALL new born human babies, which OBVIOUSLY includes ALL of you, here, SEE and VIEW 'Reality', EXACTLY, for what 'It' is. But, 'this perception' QUICKLY GOT TWISTED, DISTORTED, and/or LOST COMPLETELY through and by a False and Wrong 'education system'.
accelafine wrote: Sat Feb 01, 2025 9:35 am An artificial 'reality' that hides a much deeper reality--a 'consciousness' that we are all part of.
But, the Truth, or 'Reality', Itself, is NOT 'hidden' once one LEARNS HOW TO LOOK AT and SEE things, for what they Truly ARE, ONCE AGAIN.
accelafine wrote: Sat Feb 01, 2025 9:35 am He likens it to a computer desktop, where we have no clue about, and don't need to know, all the workings that are going on that give us the pretty icons etc. we see on our screens. There are several quantum theories of reality that are theoretically sound but can't be tested empirically (yet).
BUT, they CAN BE tested, empirically. However, they do NOT REALLY NEED TO BE, BECAUSE the ACTUAL, IRREFUTABLE, Truth of things IS ALREADY KNOWN.

OBVIOUSLY if there are two or more contradictory or inconsistent 'theories', which, laughably, are also can NOT YET be 'empirically tested', then this is a SURE SIGN that you ARE, STILL, A LONG WAY OFF, and ARE GOING DOWN THE Wrong TRACK, in Life.
accelafine wrote: Sat Feb 01, 2025 9:35 am He says that reality is not part of space/time and uses the word 'doomed' a lot when referring to 'space/time' in the universe of classical physics that we are familiar with.
So what if some one USES the word 'doomed' A LOT?
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Re: my own reality is now in question

Post by Gary Childress »

accelafine wrote: Sat Feb 01, 2025 9:35 am
Gary Childress wrote: Sat Feb 01, 2025 8:47 am
accelafine wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2025 11:11 pm

You don't know. There's actually a reasonably high chance that it was. You should listen to Donald Hoffman some time. He's pretty convincing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=reYdQYZ9Rj4&t=4s
He's definitely convincing. I have no idea what he is saying but he speaks as though he's backed by some seriously incontrovertible evidence. It's kind of funny, I gave up on ever understanding science when I encountered all the quantum physics made simple books in the 1990s. I realized then that there was something to science that I would never know the answers to. That some would forever be talking above the clouds as far as I'm concerned.
:lol: What he's basically saying is that our 'reality' is simply an 'interface', something we have created. An artificial 'reality' that hides a much deeper reality--a 'consciousness' that we are all part of. He likens it to a computer desktop, where we have no clue about, and don't need to know, all the workings that are going on that give us the pretty icons etc. we see on our screens. There are several quantum theories of reality that are theoretically sound but can't be tested empirically (yet). He says that reality is not part of space/time and uses the word 'doomed' a lot when referring to 'space/time' in the universe of classical physics that we are familiar with.
That part I understood. I couldn't follow his evidence for why that was necessarily the case though.
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accelafine
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Re: my own reality is now in question

Post by accelafine »

Age wrote: Sat Feb 01, 2025 10:14 am
accelafine wrote: Sat Feb 01, 2025 9:35 am
Gary Childress wrote: Sat Feb 01, 2025 8:47 am

He's definitely convincing. I have no idea what he is saying but he speaks as though he's backed by some seriously incontrovertible evidence. It's kind of funny, I gave up on ever understanding science when I encountered all the quantum physics made simple books in the 1990s. I realized then that there was something to science that I would never know the answers to. That some would forever be talking above the clouds as far as I'm concerned.
:lol: What he's basically saying is that our 'reality' is simply an 'interface', something we have created.
OF COURSE you human beings 'own reality' is just some thing that you have created. For example;

The earth is flat.
The sun revolves around the earth.
The Universe began.
The Universe is expanding.

These are all CREATED so-called 'realities'. But, they are, OBVIOUSLY, NOT 'Reality', Itself.

And, 'those human being created realities' are among a countless number of other ones.

However, 'Reality' WILL ALWAYS STAND ON Its OWN and BY Itself. you human beings COME-TO-KNOW, and UNDERSTAND, 'Reality', Itself. Some just QUICKER than others.

Also, and quite humorously ALL new born human babies, which OBVIOUSLY includes ALL of you, here, SEE and VIEW 'Reality', EXACTLY, for what 'It' is. But, 'this perception' QUICKLY GOT TWISTED, DISTORTED, and/or LOST COMPLETELY through and by a False and Wrong 'education system'.
accelafine wrote: Sat Feb 01, 2025 9:35 am An artificial 'reality' that hides a much deeper reality--a 'consciousness' that we are all part of.
But, the Truth, or 'Reality', Itself, is NOT 'hidden' once one LEARNS HOW TO LOOK AT and SEE things, for what they Truly ARE, ONCE AGAIN.
accelafine wrote: Sat Feb 01, 2025 9:35 am He likens it to a computer desktop, where we have no clue about, and don't need to know, all the workings that are going on that give us the pretty icons etc. we see on our screens. There are several quantum theories of reality that are theoretically sound but can't be tested empirically (yet).
BUT, they CAN BE tested, empirically. However, they do NOT REALLY NEED TO BE, BECAUSE the ACTUAL, IRREFUTABLE, Truth of things IS ALREADY KNOWN.

OBVIOUSLY if there are two or more contradictory or inconsistent 'theories', which, laughably, are also can NOT YET be 'empirically tested', then this is a SURE SIGN that you ARE, STILL, A LONG WAY OFF, and ARE GOING DOWN THE Wrong TRACK, in Life.
accelafine wrote: Sat Feb 01, 2025 9:35 am He says that reality is not part of space/time and uses the word 'doomed' a lot when referring to 'space/time' in the universe of classical physics that we are familiar with.
So what if some one USES the word 'doomed' A LOT?
Fuck off bot
Age
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Re: my own reality is now in question

Post by Age »

accelafine wrote: Sat Feb 01, 2025 7:44 pm
Age wrote: Sat Feb 01, 2025 10:14 am
accelafine wrote: Sat Feb 01, 2025 9:35 am

:lol: What he's basically saying is that our 'reality' is simply an 'interface', something we have created.
OF COURSE you human beings 'own reality' is just some thing that you have created. For example;

The earth is flat.
The sun revolves around the earth.
The Universe began.
The Universe is expanding.

These are all CREATED so-called 'realities'. But, they are, OBVIOUSLY, NOT 'Reality', Itself.

And, 'those human being created realities' are among a countless number of other ones.

However, 'Reality' WILL ALWAYS STAND ON Its OWN and BY Itself. you human beings COME-TO-KNOW, and UNDERSTAND, 'Reality', Itself. Some just QUICKER than others.

Also, and quite humorously ALL new born human babies, which OBVIOUSLY includes ALL of you, here, SEE and VIEW 'Reality', EXACTLY, for what 'It' is. But, 'this perception' QUICKLY GOT TWISTED, DISTORTED, and/or LOST COMPLETELY through and by a False and Wrong 'education system'.
accelafine wrote: Sat Feb 01, 2025 9:35 am An artificial 'reality' that hides a much deeper reality--a 'consciousness' that we are all part of.
But, the Truth, or 'Reality', Itself, is NOT 'hidden' once one LEARNS HOW TO LOOK AT and SEE things, for what they Truly ARE, ONCE AGAIN.
accelafine wrote: Sat Feb 01, 2025 9:35 am He likens it to a computer desktop, where we have no clue about, and don't need to know, all the workings that are going on that give us the pretty icons etc. we see on our screens. There are several quantum theories of reality that are theoretically sound but can't be tested empirically (yet).
BUT, they CAN BE tested, empirically. However, they do NOT REALLY NEED TO BE, BECAUSE the ACTUAL, IRREFUTABLE, Truth of things IS ALREADY KNOWN.

OBVIOUSLY if there are two or more contradictory or inconsistent 'theories', which, laughably, are also can NOT YET be 'empirically tested', then this is a SURE SIGN that you ARE, STILL, A LONG WAY OFF, and ARE GOING DOWN THE Wrong TRACK, in Life.
accelafine wrote: Sat Feb 01, 2025 9:35 am He says that reality is not part of space/time and uses the word 'doomed' a lot when referring to 'space/time' in the universe of classical physics that we are familiar with.
So what if some one USES the word 'doomed' A LOT?
Fuck off bot
So much for me being on your IGNORE list.

And, ONCE MORE, what 'we' can CLEARLY SEE, here, is another one who just can NOT back up and support its CLAIMS NOR just ANSWER and CLARIFY the SIMPLEST OF QUESTIONS.
mack7963
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Re: my own reality is now in question

Post by mack7963 »

I'm really going to have to stop thinking so much, now i realise that literally everything happens as i understand it in my own brain, audio, visual, tactile etc. Although i have accepted that accepting it is fine and that's what most people do anyway, i can't stop wondering what it actually looks, sounds, and feels like outside of my brain.
Impenitent
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Re: my own reality is now in question

Post by Impenitent »

it appears as it does

you have the imagination of the appearance

if the usion is sick, let it be ill

bananas have appeal for a reason

-Imp
mack7963
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Re: my own reality is now in question

Post by mack7963 »

Impenitent wrote: Wed Feb 05, 2025 12:30 am bananas have appeal for a reason

-Imp
i guess, i mean it makes as much sense as any of this does now.
Maia
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Re: my own reality is now in question

Post by Maia »

mack7963 wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2025 4:57 pm I'm really going to have to stop thinking so much, now i realise that literally everything happens as i understand it in my own brain, audio, visual, tactile etc. Although i have accepted that accepting it is fine and that's what most people do anyway, i can't stop wondering what it actually looks, sounds, and feels like outside of my brain.
It doesn't look, sound or feel like anything. It's just a collection of forces and energies interacting with each other. The brain will use any input it has to create an understandable representation of what's out there, just about good enough for you to be able to function in it.
Atla
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Re: my own reality is now in question

Post by Atla »

Maia wrote: Wed Feb 05, 2025 12:57 pm
mack7963 wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2025 4:57 pm I'm really going to have to stop thinking so much, now i realise that literally everything happens as i understand it in my own brain, audio, visual, tactile etc. Although i have accepted that accepting it is fine and that's what most people do anyway, i can't stop wondering what it actually looks, sounds, and feels like outside of my brain.
It doesn't look, sound or feel like anything. It's just a collection of forces and energies interacting with each other. The brain will use any input it has to create an understandable representation of what's out there, just about good enough for you to be able to function in it.
I don't think so. If there are these sights and sounds and feels inside the head, then there are probably more out there. Technically, forces and energies are how we conceptualize what is out there, but these concepts themselves are also inside the head.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: my own reality is now in question

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

mack7963 wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2025 4:57 pm 1. I'm really going to have to stop thinking so much, now i realise that literally everything happens as i understand it in my own brain, audio, visual, tactile etc. Although i have accepted that accepting it is fine and that's what most people do anyway,

2. i can't stop wondering what it actually looks, sounds, and feels like outside of my brain.
Your [1] is a good move but as Kant warned you are not likely to stay that way for long because [2] will keep haunting you, as with every human beings who had been programmed by evolution from a 3.5 billion years algorithm to focus on what is outside your brain which is necessary to facilitate survival, i.e. to search for food, opposite sex and avoid enemies out there.
  • Kant: Even the wisest of men cannot free himself from them {the illusions}. After long effort he perhaps succeeds in guarding himself against actual error; but he will never be able to free himself from the Illusion, which unceasingly mocks and torments him. CPR B39
What is out there [independent of the self] is critical for basic survival, but the problem is when the majority 'naturally' adopted as it as a dogmatic ideology of philosophical realism [PR] and its subset, theism.
Philosophical realism—usually not treated as a position of its own but as a stance towards other subject matters—is the view that a certain kind of thing (ranging widely from abstract objects like numbers to moral statements to the physical world itself) has mind-independent existence, i.e. that it exists even in the absence of any mind perceiving it or that its existence is not just a mere appearance in the eye of the beholder.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_realism
The problem is when philosophical realists and theists assume, reify, hypostatize what is out there [absolutely mind independent] as something very real, when in reality there is nothing substantively real out there; this is chasing after an illusion, albeit a useful illusion.

It is only about 2500 years ago, with philosophy, that SOME humans are endowed with the knowledge that what is reality to humans could be merely what is activated by the brain within and there is no absolute reality that is mind-independent, giving rise to skepticism.

This is why it is was stated "skepticism was understood as a way of life associated with inner peace."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skepticism

As such, radical skepticism is a sort of a more evolutionary advanced view over philosophical realism. Such views are common within Eastern philosophy and not many in Western Philosophy, [e.g. are Kant, Hawking, ??]

However, one should not be an ideological skeptic [ANTI-philosophical realist] but equips oneself with rational and objective knowledge why one adopts an anti-philosophical_realist's position.

Generally, it is not easy to shift from the dogmatic and fundamentalistic psychological realism position to being ANTI-philosophical_realism as it require one to go through some sort of cold-turkey which could be unbearable for the majority.

Hoffman sort of give explanations of how our brain create reality as an intermediary but he [as a PR] could not give up what is supposedly the final reality out there.
It it the same with Einstein, the neo-Kantians, the majority of philosophers and most posters in this forum. As Kant warned they will continue to be deceived by that illusion of an absolute mind-independent reality.
mack7963
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Re: my own reality is now in question

Post by mack7963 »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Thu Feb 06, 2025 5:32 am
mack7963 wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2025 4:57 pm 1. I'm really going to have to stop thinking so much, now i realise that literally everything happens as i understand it in my own brain, audio, visual, tactile etc. Although i have accepted that accepting it is fine and that's what most people do anyway,

2. i can't stop wondering what it actually looks, sounds, and feels like outside of my brain.
Your [1] is a good move but as Kant warned you are not likely to stay that way for long because [2] will keep haunting you, as with every human beings who had been programmed by evolution from a 3.5 billion years algorithm to focus on what is outside your brain which is necessary to facilitate survival, i.e. to search for food, opposite sex and avoid enemies out there.
  • Kant: Even the wisest of men cannot free himself from them {the illusions}. After long effort he perhaps succeeds in guarding himself against actual error; but he will never be able to free himself from the Illusion, which unceasingly mocks and torments him. CPR B39
What is out there [independent of the self] is critical for basic survival, but the problem is when the majority 'naturally' adopted as it as a dogmatic ideology of philosophical realism [PR] and its subset, theism.
Philosophical realism—usually not treated as a position of its own but as a stance towards other subject matters—is the view that a certain kind of thing (ranging widely from abstract objects like numbers to moral statements to the physical world itself) has mind-independent existence, i.e. that it exists even in the absence of any mind perceiving it or that its existence is not just a mere appearance in the eye of the beholder.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_realism
The problem is when philosophical realists and theists assume, reify, hypostatize what is out there [absolutely mind independent] as something very real, when in reality there is nothing substantively real out there; this is chasing after an illusion, albeit a useful illusion.

It is only about 2500 years ago, with philosophy, that SOME humans are endowed with the knowledge that what is reality to humans could be merely what is activated by the brain within and there is no absolute reality that is mind-independent, giving rise to skepticism.

This is why it is was stated "skepticism was understood as a way of life associated with inner peace."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skepticism

As such, radical skepticism is a sort of a more evolutionary advanced view over philosophical realism. Such views are common within Eastern philosophy and not many in Western Philosophy, [e.g. are Kant, Hawking, ??]

However, one should not be an ideological skeptic [ANTI-philosophical realist] but equips oneself with rational and objective knowledge why one adopts an anti-philosophical_realist's position.

Generally, it is not easy to shift from the dogmatic and fundamentalistic psychological realism position to being ANTI-philosophical_realism as it require one to go through some sort of cold-turkey which could be unbearable for the majority.

Hoffman sort of give explanations of how our brain create reality as an intermediary but he [as a PR] could not give up what is supposedly the final reality out there.
It it the same with Einstein, the neo-Kantians, the majority of philosophers and most posters in this forum. As Kant warned they will continue to be deceived by that illusion of an absolute mind-independent reality.
dont get me wrong, im not so naive as to think I'm going to become Neo in the next decade or so, however, where my interest is now drifting towards is not what's out there but what's in there, i have access to my own mind which is where every single aspect of my reality is played out, so i think looking in there makes more sense.
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