TRUMP AHEAD?

[Alexis Jacobi]

but in hindsight having since read the Gospels — we were taught the important stuff

I can only [feigning humility] suggest that without about a month reading fundamental materials that your conception is limited, insufficient and susceptible to Protestant influences.

Examine those today who attempt to re-assimilate themselves back into traditional Catholicism.

The Reversion of the Round Pegs!

[Harbal]

but in hindsight having since read the Gospels — we were taught the important stuff

I can only [feigning humility] suggest that without about a month reading fundamental materials that your conception is limited, insufficient and susceptible to Protestant influences.

Examine those today who attempt to re-assimilate themselves back into traditional Catholicism.

The Reversion of the Round Pegs!

I always thought the only qualifying requirement of Catholicism was a highly developed capacity for guilt. All the fancy dress and Latin mumbo-jumbo is just window dressing. Or that's how it seems from the perspective of a termite.

[Atla]

I’d just drop it were I you.

Good point, back to reality.

Righto — which one?

The one we actually live in, not the shared wishful thinking realities that people have constructed for hundreds/thousands of years.

[Harbal]

I once saw an interview with Evelyn Waugh, where he was talking about his conversion to Catholicism. I never liked the man, but I liked him even less after I'd seen the interview.

[Harbal]

Apparently, Waugh's last words, to the nurse who was attending to him, were, "I am so sorry", so he went to his grave feeling guilty about something. A Catholic to the very end. It isn't known what he actually did to the nurse, but he was on his deathbed at the time, so it probably wasn't something she couldn't handle.

[seeds]

Now, with the preceding in mind, other than perhaps the positive psychological effects one might derive from being baptized, do you actually believe that the Christian ritual of baptism has any bearing on the outcome of one's soul post-death?

Nothing I’d say would have any effect on your concretized views — so why ask me such questions?

You indicated in the post I was responding to, that the purpose (or "result") of baptism is...

"...(a clean soul delivered from original sin)..."

In which case, the reason why I ask you questions such as the one you quoted above, is because I am interested in hearing a brilliant and eloquent wordsmith, such as yourself, explain to me why humans need to be baptized?

Come on now AJ, if you are going to be an advocate for Catholicism and speak of its notion of "3 possible baptisms" as being the means by which one can cleanse one's soul of the inherited stain of "original sin,"...

...then you should be ready and willing to answer any and all questions about the belief system you are promoting.

So, with the above in mind, and for the sake of me having a clear understanding of your stance on this situation, again I ask you: why do humans need to be baptized?
_______

[Immanuel Can]

Infant baptism, antisemitism = bad theology

What makes them bad is their blatant contradiction of Scripture, not my feelings.

Those many hardened positions that comprise the Protestant view...

Well, there's nothing at all "hardened" about deciding to obey God rather than men. (Acts 5:29) It's just good sense, good exegesis, and good morals. The Catholic argument that their version of "revelation" is "organic and progressive" has never much impressed me, nor has the conduct of the Popes and prelates who have attempted to foist upon Christians their personal preferences in the name of "ecclesiastical authority." It was they who denied the rights of ordinary Christians to have and read the Word of God; and understandably so, because they personally were so often in contravention of it.

Such caused the Reformation. They have nobody to blame but themselves.

[Immanuel Can]

I could just as well have said, “If such a thing as a prime mover exists, it would be sufficient but not necessary to perform its functions.” What would be something that would be both necessary and sufficient to perform the functions of a prime mover—whatever those functions may be—is a different matter than the one I raised.

Well, it's essential, if I am to have any chance of understanding what it is you're trying to say.

If you realize that mathematically, there has to be a "Prime Mover," or "First Cause," as I would say, or "Intelligent Creator," as you later put it, but it's not God, then I think it's quite necessary to ask what entity it is you mean. You say it's "sufficient" to have "performed its functions": but I don't understand what non-God entity you could possibly think is "sufficient" in just this way.

And given that we are in an argument-to-the-best-explanation, it's absolutely necessary for us to be able to compare and discuss the relative plausibility of the various options. If we can't, we're not going to be able to arrive at any such estimation as, what is the most likely explanation?

3. An infinite regress is no more impossible than an infinitesimally small number.

No, that's certainly wrong. We know that much.

Infinity is not "a small number." It isn't even comparable to some number. In fact, it isn't actually a "real number" at all, mathematically speaking. It's a placeholder concept for an unending or unbeginning entity, or one that recurs without cessation, like the sequence of digits ideally following "3.14..." in pi. Thus, the one thing it never does is terminate in any "number," whether big or small. That's what makes it infinity.

I stand by my remark.

You really shouldn't. It mistakes "infinity" for "a really small number," and that's just not right. Infinity is not properly a number at all...a fact I first learned in grade 9 maths, actually.

[Gary Childress]

What makes them bad is their blatant contradiction of Scripture, not my feelings.

Those many hardened positions that comprise the Protestant view...

Well, there's nothing at all "hardened" about deciding to obey God rather than men. (Acts 5:29) It's just good sense, good exegesis, and good morals. The Catholic argument that their version of "revelation" is "organic and progressive" has never much impressed me, nor has the conduct of the Popes and prelates who have attempted to foist upon Christians their personal preferences in the name of "ecclesiastical authority." It was they who denied the rights of ordinary Christians to have and read the Word of God; and understandably so, because they personally were so often in contravention of it.

Such caused the Reformation. They have nobody to blame but themselves.

Sounds sensible to me. If there's a God, then let ordinary people determine that for ourselves and establish our own relationship with him/her/it (or whatever). If there's a God, then God is in charge, not high priests. And if there's no God, then there's no need to have high priests claiming there is one, so again, no need for high priests.

[Immanuel Can]

Those many hardened positions that comprise the Protestant view...

Well, there's nothing at all "hardened" about deciding to obey God rather than men. (Acts 5:29) It's just good sense, good exegesis, and good morals. The Catholic argument that their version of "revelation" is "organic and progressive" has never much impressed me, nor has the conduct of the Popes and prelates who have attempted to foist upon Christians their personal preferences in the name of "ecclesiastical authority." It was they who denied the rights of ordinary Christians to have and read the Word of God; and understandably so, because they personally were so often in contravention of it.

Such caused the Reformation. They have nobody to blame but themselves.

Sounds sensible to me. If there's a God, then let ordinary people determine that for ourselves and establish our own relationship with him/her/it (or whatever). If there's a God, then God is in charge, not high priests. And if there's no God, then there's no need to have high priests claiming there is one, so again, no need for high priests.

Right. Exactly. There's no need for a "priest" caste at all.

[Gary Childress]

Well, there's nothing at all "hardened" about deciding to obey God rather than men. (Acts 5:29) It's just good sense, good exegesis, and good morals. The Catholic argument that their version of "revelation" is "organic and progressive" has never much impressed me, nor has the conduct of the Popes and prelates who have attempted to foist upon Christians their personal preferences in the name of "ecclesiastical authority." It was they who denied the rights of ordinary Christians to have and read the Word of God; and understandably so, because they personally were so often in contravention of it.

Such caused the Reformation. They have nobody to blame but themselves.

Sounds sensible to me. If there's a God, then let ordinary people determine that for ourselves and establish our own relationship with him/her/it (or whatever). If there's a God, then God is in charge, not high priests. And if there's no God, then there's no need to have high priests claiming there is one, so again, no need for high priests.

Right. Exactly. There's no need for a "priest" caste at all.

Hurray, we agree on something!!

[Harbal]

Sounds sensible to me. If there's a God, then let ordinary people determine that for ourselves and establish our own relationship with him/her/it (or whatever). If there's a God, then God is in charge, not high priests. And if there's no God, then there's no need to have high priests claiming there is one, so again, no need for high priests.

Right. Exactly. There's no need for a "priest" caste at all.

Hurray, we agree on something!!

And that doesn't worry you?

[Immanuel Can]

Hurray, we agree on something!!

Not the first, and won't be the last, Gary.

[Alexis Jacobi]

Such caused the Reformation. They have nobody to blame but themselves.

Carry on. I unnerstan. There are likely other areas where some agreements have been or could be forged.

[Alexis Jacobi]

Hurray, we agree on something!!

It’s a rebel’s position though. You could hold priests or officiants in contempt if that is your predilection, and you could also value those men for a host of good reasons.

The project of the undermining of hierarchy … is also one of a civilizational termite.