*(this is from the negative view)
Don't be too arrogant with your ignorance.Peter Holmes wrote:What tripe.Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Thu May 23, 2024 8:41 am My point is there is no reality that is absolutely independent of the human conditions.
It is not 'for there to be reality' there MUST be humans;
rather
'reality emerges with the human condition'
the difference above is critical and subtle.
'Reality emerges with the human condition.' =
1 Before there were humans, there was no reality (no universe).
2 Had there been no humans, there would have been no reality (no universe).
There is big difference in the way I phrase the point, i.e. in the negative perspective:
'Reality does not emerge without the human condition.'
This view is to appose the p-realist ideological view that reality is absolutely independent of the human conditions.
Here are some clues:But, by all means, keep wriggling. You know this is nonsense, and no amount of subtle prevarication saves it.
Humans have been around for an almost infinitesimally small time in the vast history of the universe. So the claim that 'reality emerges with the human condition' is mind-bogglingly stupid.
Note this
1. In the mask illusion;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKa0eaKsdA0
a 'real' Convex ) shaped appears instantly when you set your eyes to it,
originally it is a Concave ( shaped thing.
Why is this so?
This is established by evolution over millions of years and hardwired in all normal humans.
Thus this is supported by its neural correlates.
It is because we humans are aware of the experiment we know the truth of this illusion.
If in ancient times, the people would think the Convex ) shaped figure is real if they do not have the access to check it physically.
2. Here is another one involving we humans moving;
Dinosaur that follow your gaze optical illusion
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZl7zeqFHS4
It appears the dinosaur is turning its head to follow your gaze when it is actually not moving.
As you will note from the above, the "reality" of the above only when human interact with it is a certain manner.
So without humans, there is no such "reality" which is apparent.
There are may other similar examples of the above where reality [apparent] only appears when there are human interactions.
These apparent reality do not emerge by themselves.
Such a reality of an illusion cannot be absolutely independent of the human conditions
Here is the 'Eureka' moment;
The above are illusions which can be discovered by rational humans.
These sort of illusions evolved from millions of years.
But there are illusions of "reality" that evolved from billions of years ago.
These refer to the everyday reality of things you take as really real, .e.g. the apples and whatever solid things you observed outside you or even the parts inside you.
Such 'really' real things are actually illusions but the majority of humans even the most intelligent and rational could not detect they are illusions that had evolved organically from over 3.5 billions and 13.7 billions of years physically.
They are so 'permanent' and 'persistent' that humans take them as the-real as opposed to other visual illusion, abstract objects, imaginations, etc.
Just like the above 2 illusions, these hardcore illusions are only reality and realized with the human conditions.
But the latter are very difficult to understand as a refined kind of illusions by the majority.
There is a need for very refined deep reflections to understand, ultimately they cannot exist as absolutely independent without the human conditions.
So, my point;
'Reality does not emerge and is not realized as real without the human conditions.'
Reality as it is cannot be absolutely independent of the human conditions.
(note the above is stated in the negative) which leaves room for deep reflections of the point.
You condemned my point with arrogance and ignorance because these sublime facts are beyond your cognition.
Discuss??
Views??