as Philosophers we often forget what theories we have
that can be used to help us explain what it means to be human.....
and one of these theories is evolution and Darwin........
the basement or the foundation of every theory is, whether we admit
it or not, is evolution.... where we come from lies at the heart of
every single theory we have....in religions, at the heart of every theology
is, where we are from..... "God created the heaven and the earth''
is at the heart of the Christian religion...and Buddhism is about returning
to the void we came from....to no longer being born and thus avoiding
the ever-present suffering that every single human being must face.....
the suffering of growing old, and disease and finally death.....
(for me anyway, the suffering we get in this life is part of the price
of admission into life... if you live, you suffer... that is part of the deal
of living, suffering.. suffering is part of the cost of existence... I exist,
therefor I suffer...one demands the other and we cannot avoid suffering
any more than we can avoid puberty or middle age or old age.. it just a
fact of life, nothing more)
the question of Darwin forces people to take a deep look at themselves....
to be human is to be animal.... we come from animals... and much of
what we do is reverting back to our original beginnings, which is animal...
and what do animals do? they take care of their needs... the basic necessities
of life is food, water, shelter, comfort.... and animals do just that.. they seek
out food and water and sleep and safety/security.....just as we do,
because our basic instincts come from animals.... the urge, the almost
violent urge to procreate, is strictly from our animal background....
look at animals... look at our dogs or cats... and what do they do? they seek out
their inborn instincts of fulfilling their needs...the animals seek out love and
companionship..... the bond with their human owners... that instinct is as strong
as eating and sleeping and drinking water in our dogs and cats....
but notice something interesting in dogs and cats... they don't seek out
meaning or what am I for belief, that human beings need?
the question of the ''meaning of life'' never occurs in dogs or cats
or elephants or rats.....the entire basis of our animal existence
is to eat, sleep, water, security/safety, procreation.....
why do we (and animals fight) is because we/animals think that
the other animal is trying to take one of our needs..... be it food,
water, shelter, or threaten our children......animals as is humans,
are programmed to protect our children, at all costs....and we do so....
and much of, if not all of animals programming is done by instincts, from
evolution.....but it seems clear that animals are unable to go past
their evolutionary instincts... to eat and sleep and water...and we
human beings also follow our basic evolutionary instincts...
but somehow or someway, we have, some of us anyway, have advance
beyond our programming of evolution.... to go beyond the basic human
needs of food, water, shelter, health care, education......
much of what we do lies in terms of evolution....we seek out our needs,
just as all animals do.... and we follow the evolutionary programming
procreation..... as all animals do.....
but stop at this point.... what do animals do? one, they attempt
to fulfill their biological needs of food, water, shelter....
and two, they attempt to fulfill their other biological need
of procreation.... to continue the species... but think about it...
Ok, we have fulfilled our evolutionary need to procreate, and that
is that.... they, the animals don't go beyond that.... they fulfill
their biological need to procreate and that is that..... their is no
other meaning or purpose in life for animals other than this
evolutionary need to procreate... it has no other meaning...
for animals, their entire existence is too simple recreate themselves....
and we human beings also follow that biological necessity, by
recreating ourselves..... but unlike animals, we seek out some other
meaning for ourselves beyond just continuing the species as animals do...
unlike all the other animals, we ask, ''what was I made for?"
the Kantian question of ''what am I to do?" are two peas in a pod....
to answer the question, ''what was I made for'' is wondering why
we would spend eternity worshiping god, which seems to negate all human
possibilities into one pointless use of time.....if I am to spend my time,
my limited time as a human being, getting ready for going to heaven where
I will spend my time worshiping god..... makes human existence pointless
and boring...... if the goal is to just worship god, then what does it matter
if we find love or happiness or gain knowledge if all we can do with that is
to worship god.... it makes most human activity worthless and pointless.....
what it the point of most human action if all we do with it, is to go to heaven
and worship god..... forever........ that belief that the point of existence
is to go to heaven, negates virtually everything we do as human beings...
it becomes pointless to vote or watch the sunset or love your mate,
if all that happens, is you go to heaven and worship god forever.....
the other example we have is, as I said, the animal example... whereas
the only point of being an animal seems to be about the simple
procreation of yourself... the continuation of the species....
there doesn't seem to be another point to animals' existence....
do Rabbits exist to be another food source for human beings?
what is the point of Rabbits? or Elephants or whales or ants?
is the point of existence for all of these life forms, simply
to continue the species?
and what of humans? what is the point of existence if the point
is suffering or begetting or shooting defenseless animals or
worshiping god forever, and ever and ever?
''What am I to do?" ''What was I made for?" two questions that
reach into the heart of the human experience......
now think of those two questions in terms of evolution, of Darwin?
what next?
Kropotkin
the forgotten theory....
-
Peter Kropotkin
- Posts: 1776
- Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:11 am
Re: the forgotten theory....
as much as anything, human beings want to feel ''special''
to be acknowledged as much as anything else......
the religious theory of life makes human beings feel special
in some respect... the theory of evolution which, at its heart,
is as much about randomness and chance and possibility as
any theory ever created... takes away that feeling of being
''special"" as any theory ever created..... a theory of chance and
probability such as the theory of evolution will take people away
from their supposed ''special nature'' as anything....
much of the ''value'' of religions especially those religions like
Christianity or the Protestant ones, comes from this feeling of
being ''special'' by being a ''personal'' religion.... god is looking after me,
specifically, me....and he has a plan just for me, one of 8 billion people,
a plan just for me.....and only me......and what egotism that allows one
to hold that a god, omnipresent, omnipotent, god of the entire universe
has a plan just for me and a personal investment in me and my getting to
heaven.... I am not sure even the word egotism covers all of this.....
but in looking at the conclusion of religions and evolution,
one can see how the theory of evolution can bring us back into
some sort of balance in ourselves and our relationship to others.......
for I hold that this ''special'' relationship that some have with religions
and god, takes us away from the real relationship we should be engaged with....
that of being one within nature.....we, all can't be in touch with god,
but we all can be in touch with our nature and the animal side of who we are.....
if, as Nietzsche suggests, that man is the bridge between what was, us being
animals and the ''end'' product, of us human beings, being in possession of
us being fully and completely human......we are not a final product....
we are, constantly being made and remade.... not by religious rules, but
by evolution....as the environment changes how we are supposed to
met our needs, we must change to meet those needs.......
as I have grown older, my needs have changed.... the egotistical
needs of my youth have changed...to my much more modest needs of
old age.... the piss and vinegar of my youth where I had ''certainty''
that I knew everything.... replaced in my old age by ''knowing'' that I know
nothing..... which is '''guaranteed'' by my age of 65....
my own ''self-knowledge'' is informed by my own changing needs....
I once needed to be the ''big shot'', to be wanted and loved by others,
to get what was ''rightfully'' mine which was, well everything worth having.....
today, my own needs have been reduced... I no longer need the vast amount
of things that I once desired... I no longer need the sports car or the fanciest house
on the block or the longing of millions.... my needs today are far more modest....
I don't want to win millions in the lottery, I would be happy with a buck 98......
and all of this leads us back into our ever-changing needs......
and in looking at Darwin's theory and making connections with my own life,
I see that in simplifying my life as I have done, I am becoming more in tune
with Darwin and his theory of evolution..... not on purpose but by the
inevitable passing of the years, my own life has slowing turned into
process that Darwin advanced.... that my own nature has slowly
transformed into a Darwinian understanding of the universe......
and in my youth of excesses of desires and needs, that takes me
away from the path of the process of evolution....
in other words, in my youth, I practice the principles of evolution
and in doing so, I was happy... of just meeting my needs...
in the simple act of being me.... I was following the course
of evolution......
but as I ''grew'' up and I became an adult... my nature which was
to be simple and follow my needs, became complicated... in following
the excess of the ism's, capitalism, communism, Catholicism, Buddhism....
I turned away from the basics of evolution.... of simply meeting my needs....
I would suggest that adults become unhappy because they have followed
the path of following the ism's instead of following the process of
evolution.... which is meeting our needs.... we have made life way
too complicated and excessive... we seek out making money and
seeking fame and power and titles and material possession.... way out
of proportion to what is the path of evolution.... and in doing so,
we have fallen into addictions, of money, of power, of sex, and of drugs......
of the addiction of buying and selling, and of thinking that those excesses
will bring us happiness and love.... we think that these excessive
seeking of money, fame, material possessions, of titles and power will
fill our soul.....but the path to that fulfillment of our soul comes from
the small, not the large..... it comes from the meeting of our simple needs that
comes from our past, comes from evolution.....
in seeking to fulfill our excessive desire for wealth and power and fame
and titles, and material possessions, we become less and less happy....
in truth, our happiness comes from meeting our simply needs of food,
water, shelter, health care and education....and in meeting our psychological
needs of love, esteem, safety/security, of belonging.... if we gain those
simple needs, we are happy...... nothing more is really needed....and our
own modern unhappiness comes from thinking that there must be more to it,
then just meeting our bodily and psychological needs...
but the reality is, no, not really.....and people will shout,
but what about, or what about or what about this? again, trying to
make life much more complicated than it really is....
if we see life correctly, and we follow Darwin, we see that we can be
happy if, if we understand the path to happiness comes from our simple
meeting of our needs, of the need for food, water, shelter, safety/security,
of love, of belonging, of esteem..... of procreation......to continue the species....
what else does evolution teaches us?
Kropotkin
to be acknowledged as much as anything else......
the religious theory of life makes human beings feel special
in some respect... the theory of evolution which, at its heart,
is as much about randomness and chance and possibility as
any theory ever created... takes away that feeling of being
''special"" as any theory ever created..... a theory of chance and
probability such as the theory of evolution will take people away
from their supposed ''special nature'' as anything....
much of the ''value'' of religions especially those religions like
Christianity or the Protestant ones, comes from this feeling of
being ''special'' by being a ''personal'' religion.... god is looking after me,
specifically, me....and he has a plan just for me, one of 8 billion people,
a plan just for me.....and only me......and what egotism that allows one
to hold that a god, omnipresent, omnipotent, god of the entire universe
has a plan just for me and a personal investment in me and my getting to
heaven.... I am not sure even the word egotism covers all of this.....
but in looking at the conclusion of religions and evolution,
one can see how the theory of evolution can bring us back into
some sort of balance in ourselves and our relationship to others.......
for I hold that this ''special'' relationship that some have with religions
and god, takes us away from the real relationship we should be engaged with....
that of being one within nature.....we, all can't be in touch with god,
but we all can be in touch with our nature and the animal side of who we are.....
if, as Nietzsche suggests, that man is the bridge between what was, us being
animals and the ''end'' product, of us human beings, being in possession of
us being fully and completely human......we are not a final product....
we are, constantly being made and remade.... not by religious rules, but
by evolution....as the environment changes how we are supposed to
met our needs, we must change to meet those needs.......
as I have grown older, my needs have changed.... the egotistical
needs of my youth have changed...to my much more modest needs of
old age.... the piss and vinegar of my youth where I had ''certainty''
that I knew everything.... replaced in my old age by ''knowing'' that I know
nothing..... which is '''guaranteed'' by my age of 65....
my own ''self-knowledge'' is informed by my own changing needs....
I once needed to be the ''big shot'', to be wanted and loved by others,
to get what was ''rightfully'' mine which was, well everything worth having.....
today, my own needs have been reduced... I no longer need the vast amount
of things that I once desired... I no longer need the sports car or the fanciest house
on the block or the longing of millions.... my needs today are far more modest....
I don't want to win millions in the lottery, I would be happy with a buck 98......
and all of this leads us back into our ever-changing needs......
and in looking at Darwin's theory and making connections with my own life,
I see that in simplifying my life as I have done, I am becoming more in tune
with Darwin and his theory of evolution..... not on purpose but by the
inevitable passing of the years, my own life has slowing turned into
process that Darwin advanced.... that my own nature has slowly
transformed into a Darwinian understanding of the universe......
and in my youth of excesses of desires and needs, that takes me
away from the path of the process of evolution....
in other words, in my youth, I practice the principles of evolution
and in doing so, I was happy... of just meeting my needs...
in the simple act of being me.... I was following the course
of evolution......
but as I ''grew'' up and I became an adult... my nature which was
to be simple and follow my needs, became complicated... in following
the excess of the ism's, capitalism, communism, Catholicism, Buddhism....
I turned away from the basics of evolution.... of simply meeting my needs....
I would suggest that adults become unhappy because they have followed
the path of following the ism's instead of following the process of
evolution.... which is meeting our needs.... we have made life way
too complicated and excessive... we seek out making money and
seeking fame and power and titles and material possession.... way out
of proportion to what is the path of evolution.... and in doing so,
we have fallen into addictions, of money, of power, of sex, and of drugs......
of the addiction of buying and selling, and of thinking that those excesses
will bring us happiness and love.... we think that these excessive
seeking of money, fame, material possessions, of titles and power will
fill our soul.....but the path to that fulfillment of our soul comes from
the small, not the large..... it comes from the meeting of our simple needs that
comes from our past, comes from evolution.....
in seeking to fulfill our excessive desire for wealth and power and fame
and titles, and material possessions, we become less and less happy....
in truth, our happiness comes from meeting our simply needs of food,
water, shelter, health care and education....and in meeting our psychological
needs of love, esteem, safety/security, of belonging.... if we gain those
simple needs, we are happy...... nothing more is really needed....and our
own modern unhappiness comes from thinking that there must be more to it,
then just meeting our bodily and psychological needs...
but the reality is, no, not really.....and people will shout,
but what about, or what about or what about this? again, trying to
make life much more complicated than it really is....
if we see life correctly, and we follow Darwin, we see that we can be
happy if, if we understand the path to happiness comes from our simple
meeting of our needs, of the need for food, water, shelter, safety/security,
of love, of belonging, of esteem..... of procreation......to continue the species....
what else does evolution teaches us?
Kropotkin
-
Peter Kropotkin
- Posts: 1776
- Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:11 am
Re: the forgotten theory....
part of the modern day unhappiness lies in how we understand human
beings.... we think of human beings as economic beings, as workers,
as producers and as consumers..... and our very educational system,
of schools and colleges, continue this practice of thinking that human beings
are economic beings... but we are not.......where in Darwin does he talk
about human beings being economic beings?
No, that is not being human, being human means seeking out and finding
our needs.... of seeking out and finding food, water, shelter, education,
health care... and our psychological needs of esteem, love, safety/security,
of a sense of belonging...... that is the basic identity of being human...
of seeking out our needs.... being a worker isn't a need...
nor is being a policeman or a doctor or a priest.... any occupation
is not meeting our primary needs... outside of maybe our psychological
needs of esteem and belonging... being a doctor meets more esteem
needs than being what I do, which is a checker in a grocery store.....
but the basic principle still stands... we work to meet our bodily needs
of food, water, shelter......
but we can meet those needs, both bodily and psychological needs
by other means than those offered by capitalism or even communism.....
what communism offers that capitalism doesn't offer is a sense
of belonging to the tide of history...the big selling point of communism
is that we belong to something greater than ourselves, which isn't true
in capitalism......so, our economic and political systems are about
meeting our bodily and psychological needs.....
and now we can see the failure of capitalism..... it fails to meet the needs
of evolution, of meeting the bodily and psychological needs....
whereas communism as least met some needs.... but certainly
not all needs...
we have to judge our political and economic systems based on
how they meet our bodily and psychological needs...and today,
the social, economic, and political systems are failing to meet our needs...
democracy at least meets some of our needs....whereas a dictatorship
does not....and a Monarchy no longer fits our needs... and neither does
capitalism or mercantilism or hunter-gatherer society meets our needs....
if they did meet our needs, we would still have them as economic/political
systems.....
the political/economic system we have, must match and
meet our needs... both bodily and psychologically....
today, they do not and thus we are not happy campers....
holding to a democracy, that can help us seek out our needs...
and thus, a democracy can be part of a political system that
allow us to meet our needs and thus be happy......
which allow us to track other political and economic systems
and allow us to see if they are worth having or not....
and the criteria being, do those economic and political
systems meet our needs as constructed by evolution....
if they do not, we dump them where they belong...
in the trash heap of history......
Kropotkin
beings.... we think of human beings as economic beings, as workers,
as producers and as consumers..... and our very educational system,
of schools and colleges, continue this practice of thinking that human beings
are economic beings... but we are not.......where in Darwin does he talk
about human beings being economic beings?
No, that is not being human, being human means seeking out and finding
our needs.... of seeking out and finding food, water, shelter, education,
health care... and our psychological needs of esteem, love, safety/security,
of a sense of belonging...... that is the basic identity of being human...
of seeking out our needs.... being a worker isn't a need...
nor is being a policeman or a doctor or a priest.... any occupation
is not meeting our primary needs... outside of maybe our psychological
needs of esteem and belonging... being a doctor meets more esteem
needs than being what I do, which is a checker in a grocery store.....
but the basic principle still stands... we work to meet our bodily needs
of food, water, shelter......
but we can meet those needs, both bodily and psychological needs
by other means than those offered by capitalism or even communism.....
what communism offers that capitalism doesn't offer is a sense
of belonging to the tide of history...the big selling point of communism
is that we belong to something greater than ourselves, which isn't true
in capitalism......so, our economic and political systems are about
meeting our bodily and psychological needs.....
and now we can see the failure of capitalism..... it fails to meet the needs
of evolution, of meeting the bodily and psychological needs....
whereas communism as least met some needs.... but certainly
not all needs...
we have to judge our political and economic systems based on
how they meet our bodily and psychological needs...and today,
the social, economic, and political systems are failing to meet our needs...
democracy at least meets some of our needs....whereas a dictatorship
does not....and a Monarchy no longer fits our needs... and neither does
capitalism or mercantilism or hunter-gatherer society meets our needs....
if they did meet our needs, we would still have them as economic/political
systems.....
the political/economic system we have, must match and
meet our needs... both bodily and psychologically....
today, they do not and thus we are not happy campers....
holding to a democracy, that can help us seek out our needs...
and thus, a democracy can be part of a political system that
allow us to meet our needs and thus be happy......
which allow us to track other political and economic systems
and allow us to see if they are worth having or not....
and the criteria being, do those economic and political
systems meet our needs as constructed by evolution....
if they do not, we dump them where they belong...
in the trash heap of history......
Kropotkin
-
Peter Kropotkin
- Posts: 1776
- Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:11 am
Re: the forgotten theory....
and on the basis of Darwinism and evolution, many have
come to the conclusion that there are superior races
and inferior races.... but that is not the conclusion
that comes from Darwin or evolution......
the point of evolution is the meet our needs.... to get food
water, shelter, education, health care, and our psychological
needs of esteem and love and safety/security, of belonging...
and how do we possibly fit this idea of superior or inferior
races/people into the real reason of evolution which is
the meeting of needs? does the bodily needs or the psychological
needs even need the idea of superior or inferior races/people?
No, not all...... meeting our needs has nothing to do with
any supposed superior or inferior people......
in fact, we can see that the point of evolution really suggests
that we are in fact, equal.... as we are in equal need of meeting
our needs, which is the same in every single human being...
you and I are the same because we have the same needs... of the bodily
needs and the psychological needs... and how do we meet those needs
come from our political, social and economic systems....
we are, equal.... as we both need food, water, shelter, health care,
education and our psychological needs of love, esteem, safety/security,
and belonging..... but our differences come from I may not need as much
esteem or a sense of belonging as you do, or you may need love more than I do....
and our bodily needs are slightly different... I don't eat anywhere as much as I
used to... my own bodily needs have changed as I have gotten older.....
as your own bodily needs have changed as you have gotten older......
and our economic, political and social systems must be able to
adapt and change to meet our every changing bodily and psychological
needs... a democracy has that flexibility as does capitalism....
hence in part, their value for us as human beings.....
so, instead of forcing people to adapt to the social, economic
and political systems, how about we force the social, economic
and political system to adapt, change to our needs.....
the call here is for a far more adaptable and changeable political,
social and economic systems than we have today....and those same
political, social and economic systems to engage us as equal beings
with similar needs... not as superior or inferior beings, but as equal
beings......
Kropotkin
come to the conclusion that there are superior races
and inferior races.... but that is not the conclusion
that comes from Darwin or evolution......
the point of evolution is the meet our needs.... to get food
water, shelter, education, health care, and our psychological
needs of esteem and love and safety/security, of belonging...
and how do we possibly fit this idea of superior or inferior
races/people into the real reason of evolution which is
the meeting of needs? does the bodily needs or the psychological
needs even need the idea of superior or inferior races/people?
No, not all...... meeting our needs has nothing to do with
any supposed superior or inferior people......
in fact, we can see that the point of evolution really suggests
that we are in fact, equal.... as we are in equal need of meeting
our needs, which is the same in every single human being...
you and I are the same because we have the same needs... of the bodily
needs and the psychological needs... and how do we meet those needs
come from our political, social and economic systems....
we are, equal.... as we both need food, water, shelter, health care,
education and our psychological needs of love, esteem, safety/security,
and belonging..... but our differences come from I may not need as much
esteem or a sense of belonging as you do, or you may need love more than I do....
and our bodily needs are slightly different... I don't eat anywhere as much as I
used to... my own bodily needs have changed as I have gotten older.....
as your own bodily needs have changed as you have gotten older......
and our economic, political and social systems must be able to
adapt and change to meet our every changing bodily and psychological
needs... a democracy has that flexibility as does capitalism....
hence in part, their value for us as human beings.....
so, instead of forcing people to adapt to the social, economic
and political systems, how about we force the social, economic
and political system to adapt, change to our needs.....
the call here is for a far more adaptable and changeable political,
social and economic systems than we have today....and those same
political, social and economic systems to engage us as equal beings
with similar needs... not as superior or inferior beings, but as equal
beings......
Kropotkin
-
Peter Kropotkin
- Posts: 1776
- Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:11 am
Re: the forgotten theory....
and how does this theory of evolution
fit into my own personal preference for the
Enlightenment and existentialism philosophy?
in ism's, the truth is given to us... the search in communism
is the hunt of the creation of the ''workers state'' and in capitalism,
the search is for wealth, as wealth is the ''truth'' we seek.....
and in Catholicism, the truth is seeking out heaven and god.....
truth as already given to us.. not found by us, but given to us...
but our ''truths'' is bound up with our needs and wants....
the reason we are unhappy and in misery, is because
we have lost sight of our evolutionary needs....
of meeting those bodily and psychological needs we have....
and we mistake our needs as being about money, material
possessions, fame, titles and power..... we think that by being
wealthy, we will have esteem or a sense of belonging....
but the answer of evolution is that we can be happy with
modest wealth or material possessions or fame.....or having
enough food and shelter that we don't have to worry about those
things... those needs are being met.. of education and of health care,
of love and safety/security.... if those needs are being met,
and we are still unhappy and miserable, something is wrong
because we are focused on feeding the ego.... of being the
richest guy on the block or feeling the love of millions...
our own needs are really quite modest.... of food and water
and shelter... are not immense needs... a bit of food and water
and a roof over our heads can meet those needs easily....
why ask for more? ego....
much of what drives us today is nothing more than ego.....
but we must come back to our beginning.. which is evolution...
and that is the basis of how we must think of ourselves...
tie our questions of being human to the question and answers
of evolution.... what does it mean to be human? and I suspect
that evolution has an answer..... just not the answer you
are looking and hoping for.... and an answer that your ego demands....
Kropotkin
fit into my own personal preference for the
Enlightenment and existentialism philosophy?
in ism's, the truth is given to us... the search in communism
is the hunt of the creation of the ''workers state'' and in capitalism,
the search is for wealth, as wealth is the ''truth'' we seek.....
and in Catholicism, the truth is seeking out heaven and god.....
truth as already given to us.. not found by us, but given to us...
but our ''truths'' is bound up with our needs and wants....
the reason we are unhappy and in misery, is because
we have lost sight of our evolutionary needs....
of meeting those bodily and psychological needs we have....
and we mistake our needs as being about money, material
possessions, fame, titles and power..... we think that by being
wealthy, we will have esteem or a sense of belonging....
but the answer of evolution is that we can be happy with
modest wealth or material possessions or fame.....or having
enough food and shelter that we don't have to worry about those
things... those needs are being met.. of education and of health care,
of love and safety/security.... if those needs are being met,
and we are still unhappy and miserable, something is wrong
because we are focused on feeding the ego.... of being the
richest guy on the block or feeling the love of millions...
our own needs are really quite modest.... of food and water
and shelter... are not immense needs... a bit of food and water
and a roof over our heads can meet those needs easily....
why ask for more? ego....
much of what drives us today is nothing more than ego.....
but we must come back to our beginning.. which is evolution...
and that is the basis of how we must think of ourselves...
tie our questions of being human to the question and answers
of evolution.... what does it mean to be human? and I suspect
that evolution has an answer..... just not the answer you
are looking and hoping for.... and an answer that your ego demands....
Kropotkin
-
Peter Kropotkin
- Posts: 1776
- Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:11 am
Re: the forgotten theory....
it is assumed, assumed, that wealth is a sign of
one superiority over others... the fittest of a human being
resides in their accumulation of goods and houses and wealth....
but is that what is really the value of wealth and material
possessions?
but the reality is something quite different...... to horde something,
be it money, matchbox cars, rare coins, or stamps... is not a sign
of a healthy person..... it is an addiction.... and what addiction
is actually healthy? to be a glutton is an addiction...
to eat far more than what is healthy or normal... to pursue
wealth beyond what one could spend in a dozen lifetimes,
is an addiction.... nothing more, nothing less....
to be honest, what we praise, very wealthy people like Bill Gates
and Elon Musk, is to praise people who are addicts... addicted to
wealth like a drug addict is addicted to drugs....... can they walk away
from it? Gates, did sort of.... Musk couldn't to save his life.....
and that is an addiction.....and are they happy? Musk certainly doesn't sound
like a happy or well-adjusted human being...
now let us come back to my topic of evolution.... do we need
vast wealth or material possessions to be happy? does evolution
demand us to have vast wealth or material possessions?
or even connect this to a moral problem.....
does a person who seeks out and gets vast amount of wealth and
thus, allowing millions of people to have little or nothing in terms of food
or the bodily needs, that that person really being moral/ethical?
is being wealthy a moral plus or a moral minus?
I would argue that the gaining of wealth is a moral minus.... in gaining
wealth, we are denying others the chance at getting their needs met.....
and in evolution, that is the name of the game... to met our needs,
be it bodily or be it psychologically.....
to think about our modern life in terms of evolution, is
to condemn our modern world....
what say you?
Kropotkin
one superiority over others... the fittest of a human being
resides in their accumulation of goods and houses and wealth....
but is that what is really the value of wealth and material
possessions?
but the reality is something quite different...... to horde something,
be it money, matchbox cars, rare coins, or stamps... is not a sign
of a healthy person..... it is an addiction.... and what addiction
is actually healthy? to be a glutton is an addiction...
to eat far more than what is healthy or normal... to pursue
wealth beyond what one could spend in a dozen lifetimes,
is an addiction.... nothing more, nothing less....
to be honest, what we praise, very wealthy people like Bill Gates
and Elon Musk, is to praise people who are addicts... addicted to
wealth like a drug addict is addicted to drugs....... can they walk away
from it? Gates, did sort of.... Musk couldn't to save his life.....
and that is an addiction.....and are they happy? Musk certainly doesn't sound
like a happy or well-adjusted human being...
now let us come back to my topic of evolution.... do we need
vast wealth or material possessions to be happy? does evolution
demand us to have vast wealth or material possessions?
or even connect this to a moral problem.....
does a person who seeks out and gets vast amount of wealth and
thus, allowing millions of people to have little or nothing in terms of food
or the bodily needs, that that person really being moral/ethical?
is being wealthy a moral plus or a moral minus?
I would argue that the gaining of wealth is a moral minus.... in gaining
wealth, we are denying others the chance at getting their needs met.....
and in evolution, that is the name of the game... to met our needs,
be it bodily or be it psychologically.....
to think about our modern life in terms of evolution, is
to condemn our modern world....
what say you?
Kropotkin
-
Peter Kropotkin
- Posts: 1776
- Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:11 am
Re: the forgotten theory....
now, we have evolution to thank for our existence....
but there are other, more fanciful theories of existence....
some, some believe that a mysterious being called god,
create us.... and the evidence for this is?
I have been told, more than once, that if, if I were to believe
that god created the heaven and earth, I will see the truth of
the matter... with faith, come assurances of the truth......
But I am a modern man, I must see proof before I believe,
proof must come before belief.... and in evolution, I can see
proof... I can see bones and fossils of the species before me....
the question becomes, how does the religious, the believers
explain the bones and fossils? They can't... or they say, well,
you know, god just put them there to confuse us....but that makes
no sense as to why would god want to confuse us? From a religious
standpoint, there is no explanation for dinosaur's bones or
fossils....
the theory of evolution suggests that over millions of years,
we have changes in our bodies... and we can see this at work,
as every day we change, our bodies change... I am old now,
but at one time, I was a decent athlete... not great, but decent....
at one time, 40 years ago, running 10 or 15 miles was no big
deal... I could easily do that.... today, not so much.... after spinal
surgery and ankle surgery, even walking is, at times, difficult....
little less running... I can see in my body own changes, how
evolution can work....were I an animal, I would already have
been eaten as I can no longer escape other animals....
but being human, we seem to be against that..... well,
good for me, anyway.......
in thinking about the path of being human.... from birth to today
and then into tomorrow... where I will grow older and feebler...
as if that is possible....I follow the path of every human ever, who
has lived this long....and into tomorrow, into tomorrow where I am
a shell of who I am today.... it doesn't frighten me, as much as it
discourages me.... but this is the path of evolution.....
not of religion, for how do we explain the, as the Buddha
said, the ''Suffering'' of human beings....in religious terms...
how do we explain the pangs of old age and of disease and finally
death? it is far easier to explain old age and death in terms of
physics... that as we age, we lose energy... we go from beings
who are full of energy to beings that over time, lose energy....
we ourselves are proof of entropy... the gradual dissipation of
energy in cells... the creation of disorder within ourselves...
we go from order to disorder (in terms of energy) and old
age is just that.... going from order.. enough to be able to run
10 miles to the disorder that prevents me from running at all....
there is no religious explanation for this outside of, ''it's god's will''
but why would god want this? and that answer is ''it's not for us to know'''
''why can't we know?'' ''It's gods will'' what about this.... ''It's gods will''
every single answer comes down to, ''It's gods will''
and what is evolution/science answers to our questions......
Why do we go from order to disorder? Entropy....
what is death? where we no longer have enough energy in our cells
to function anymore... entropy has caused the cells of the body to
stop functioning.... everything in the universe, everything goes from
order to disorder.... the only question becomes a question of time....
how long does this last, this going from order to disorder?
and the answer is, as it is within the object itself.... for example,
the universe will go from order to disorder.. but that will take time,
an immense amount of time.... not millions of, or billions of years,
but trillion of years... that entropy is built within any give body....
it travels according to that body... the human being has a different
clock for entropy than say a dog or a cat.... which is different than
an elephant or a turtle....each of us, every single living being,
has a different clock setting on the amount of entropy it has......
going from order to disorder.....
we know of tree's that are thousands of years old... the entropy
clock for them is vastly different than the entropy clock is for us.....
or for dogs or cats or elephants.....and that difference in the entropy
clock was the creation of evolution.... for evolution/reality has determined the
speed of the entropy clock.....
(I was going to write science, but it actually isn't science that created the
entropy clock... it is reality, existence, evolution and time, that created
the entropy clock.. science is a word that allows us to explain that reality
and that evolutionary clock, but it isn't that reality or clock... science
is simply an explanation of that reality/entropy/clock.. I suspect
that part of problem is that we confuse the word science, with the
reality it describes... the reality science describes is different than
the word ''science'' itself)
In comparing reality in terms of the science and reality
in terms of religion, we see that science is a rather straightforward attempt
to explain reality...and religion is anything but straightforward... in its
attempt to explain reality.... religion is forever saying, ''its gods will''
or that ''humans aren't privy to god's explanation of reality''
or that it is ''mysterious'' as to gods will.... all religious explanations are
attempts to hide, cloud us from god... whereas science attempts to
remove the hiding, the clouds that prevent us from seeing.... religions
keeps the clouds..... and adds more clouds to our field of vision.....
to keep us from seeing....
for me, I would prefer my explanations of the universe, of reality to
be clear and free of clouds..... so, what explanations of reality
would you prefer?
Kropotkin
but there are other, more fanciful theories of existence....
some, some believe that a mysterious being called god,
create us.... and the evidence for this is?
I have been told, more than once, that if, if I were to believe
that god created the heaven and earth, I will see the truth of
the matter... with faith, come assurances of the truth......
But I am a modern man, I must see proof before I believe,
proof must come before belief.... and in evolution, I can see
proof... I can see bones and fossils of the species before me....
the question becomes, how does the religious, the believers
explain the bones and fossils? They can't... or they say, well,
you know, god just put them there to confuse us....but that makes
no sense as to why would god want to confuse us? From a religious
standpoint, there is no explanation for dinosaur's bones or
fossils....
the theory of evolution suggests that over millions of years,
we have changes in our bodies... and we can see this at work,
as every day we change, our bodies change... I am old now,
but at one time, I was a decent athlete... not great, but decent....
at one time, 40 years ago, running 10 or 15 miles was no big
deal... I could easily do that.... today, not so much.... after spinal
surgery and ankle surgery, even walking is, at times, difficult....
little less running... I can see in my body own changes, how
evolution can work....were I an animal, I would already have
been eaten as I can no longer escape other animals....
but being human, we seem to be against that..... well,
good for me, anyway.......
in thinking about the path of being human.... from birth to today
and then into tomorrow... where I will grow older and feebler...
as if that is possible....I follow the path of every human ever, who
has lived this long....and into tomorrow, into tomorrow where I am
a shell of who I am today.... it doesn't frighten me, as much as it
discourages me.... but this is the path of evolution.....
not of religion, for how do we explain the, as the Buddha
said, the ''Suffering'' of human beings....in religious terms...
how do we explain the pangs of old age and of disease and finally
death? it is far easier to explain old age and death in terms of
physics... that as we age, we lose energy... we go from beings
who are full of energy to beings that over time, lose energy....
we ourselves are proof of entropy... the gradual dissipation of
energy in cells... the creation of disorder within ourselves...
we go from order to disorder (in terms of energy) and old
age is just that.... going from order.. enough to be able to run
10 miles to the disorder that prevents me from running at all....
there is no religious explanation for this outside of, ''it's god's will''
but why would god want this? and that answer is ''it's not for us to know'''
''why can't we know?'' ''It's gods will'' what about this.... ''It's gods will''
every single answer comes down to, ''It's gods will''
and what is evolution/science answers to our questions......
Why do we go from order to disorder? Entropy....
what is death? where we no longer have enough energy in our cells
to function anymore... entropy has caused the cells of the body to
stop functioning.... everything in the universe, everything goes from
order to disorder.... the only question becomes a question of time....
how long does this last, this going from order to disorder?
and the answer is, as it is within the object itself.... for example,
the universe will go from order to disorder.. but that will take time,
an immense amount of time.... not millions of, or billions of years,
but trillion of years... that entropy is built within any give body....
it travels according to that body... the human being has a different
clock for entropy than say a dog or a cat.... which is different than
an elephant or a turtle....each of us, every single living being,
has a different clock setting on the amount of entropy it has......
going from order to disorder.....
we know of tree's that are thousands of years old... the entropy
clock for them is vastly different than the entropy clock is for us.....
or for dogs or cats or elephants.....and that difference in the entropy
clock was the creation of evolution.... for evolution/reality has determined the
speed of the entropy clock.....
(I was going to write science, but it actually isn't science that created the
entropy clock... it is reality, existence, evolution and time, that created
the entropy clock.. science is a word that allows us to explain that reality
and that evolutionary clock, but it isn't that reality or clock... science
is simply an explanation of that reality/entropy/clock.. I suspect
that part of problem is that we confuse the word science, with the
reality it describes... the reality science describes is different than
the word ''science'' itself)
In comparing reality in terms of the science and reality
in terms of religion, we see that science is a rather straightforward attempt
to explain reality...and religion is anything but straightforward... in its
attempt to explain reality.... religion is forever saying, ''its gods will''
or that ''humans aren't privy to god's explanation of reality''
or that it is ''mysterious'' as to gods will.... all religious explanations are
attempts to hide, cloud us from god... whereas science attempts to
remove the hiding, the clouds that prevent us from seeing.... religions
keeps the clouds..... and adds more clouds to our field of vision.....
to keep us from seeing....
for me, I would prefer my explanations of the universe, of reality to
be clear and free of clouds..... so, what explanations of reality
would you prefer?
Kropotkin