TRUMP AHEAD?

[Immanuel Can]

The whole world hates America and it's certainly not for its 'freedoms' (whatever that's supposed to mean).

"Hates"? Or "envies"?

If it's "hates," then why do so many people so desperately want to get in there?

[accelafine]

The whole world hates America and it's certainly not for its 'freedoms' (whatever that's supposed to mean).

"Hates"? Or "envies"?

If it's "hates," then why do so many people so desperately want to get in there?

In case you hadn't noticed mass immigration is happening in every Western country. People don't go around 'envying' countries. It's ridiculous to even suggest it, and it's only Americans who say it. It's not somewhere that I would ever want to live, although parts of it are breathtakingly beautiful.

[Harbal]

What "personal experience" convinces you that you've encountered what morality is, and how have you established that it was "subjective"?

And what do you do with the fact that a "subjective" view of morality makes the whole idea of morality itself ridiculous, because it makes EVERYTHING a person can "experience" equally "moral," allegedly?

If you want to argue that there is also, in addition, a form of morality based on objective moral truth, then go ahead, but I don't think it can be done convincingly. Please yourself; I'll listen to your argument if you have one, or draw my own conclusions if you decide not to attempt one.

I'm not worried about arguing that.

So that is your position on the argument for objective morality, is it, you've decided not to attempt one?

[Immanuel Can]

The whole world hates America and it's certainly not for its 'freedoms' (whatever that's supposed to mean).

"Hates"? Or "envies"?

If it's "hates," then why do so many people so desperately want to get in there?

In case you hadn't noticed mass immigration is happening in every Western country.

That is true now, but that's new for Europe, relatively speaking. It's not new for the US. All that's new is the open southern border.

People don't go around 'envying' countries.

Sure, they do. They have no opportunities where they live, and dream of the riches and opportunity they hear is in America. It's always been that way, since America was founded, actually.

England was fully enclosed, with all the land owned, by the 17th Century. No wonder, then, that so many left to go to America. Then there was the Potato Famine in Ireland, and that drove others out to America. Then there were two world wars, with waves of immigration from mid-Europe after each. And the Cuban Boat Crisis, where, as they famously said, "All the boats go one way..." And now there's the Southern Border Crisis, which is not only admitting floods of Central and South Americans, but people from all over the world...China, Sudan, Cuba, the Middle East...

There's nothing new about people envying America and wishing to get there. It's an old story.

[Immanuel Can]

If you want to argue that there is also, in addition, a form of morality based on objective moral truth, then go ahead, but I don't think it can be done convincingly. Please yourself; I'll listen to your argument if you have one, or draw my own conclusions if you decide not to attempt one.

I'm not worried about arguing that.

So that is your position on the argument for objective morality, is it, you've decided not to attempt one?

No. I'll even go over the many arguments I've offered before, if you like...once we've settled Subjectivism's hash, of course. Because really, it doesn't matter to the argument against Subjectivism whether Objectivism can be proved. Subjectivism has no card to play, but Nihilism does.

But you don't want to be a Nihilist? Why? It's the sole rational outcome of your belief in purely personal "morality"..., so why fight it? There's no other place to go...unless you want to reconsider Objectivism, which you say you will not.

[Harbal]

I'm not worried about arguing that.

So that is your position on the argument for objective morality, is it, you've decided not to attempt one?

No. I'll even go over the many arguments I've offered before, if you like

If you think you have an argument that is remotely convincing, to see it is what I would like.

once we've settled Subjectivism's hash, of course.

So let's just be clear. You are not prepared to present your argument unless I first abandon mine?

I think we've been here before. You obviously have no intention of trying to explain how objective moral truth could possibly exist.

[accelafine]

"Hates"? Or "envies"?

If it's "hates," then why do so many people so desperately want to get in there?

In case you hadn't noticed mass immigration is happening in every Western country.

That is true now, but that's new for Europe, relatively speaking. It's not new for the US. All that's new is the open southern border.

People don't go around 'envying' countries.

Sure, they do. They have no opportunities where they live, and dream of the riches and opportunity they hear is in America. It's always been that way, since America was founded, actually.

England was fully enclosed, with all the land owned, by the 17th Century. No wonder, then, that so many left to go to America. Then there was the Potato Famine in Ireland, and that drove others out to America. Then there were two world wars, with waves of immigration from mid-Europe after each. And the Cuban Boat Crisis, where, as they famously said, "All the boats go one way..." And now there's the Southern Border Crisis, which is not only admitting floods of Central and South Americans, but people from all over the world...China, Sudan, Cuba, the Middle East...

There's nothing new about people envying America and wishing to get there. It's an old story.

I'm pretty sure most of them go there for work, menial work. The US is full of poverty-stricken people, many of them homeless. The wages aren't even that great. The minimum wage is laughable, so imagine how bad their countries of origin must be.

[commonsense]

What "personal experience" convinces you that you've encountered what morality is, and how have you established that it was "subjective"?

And what do you do with the fact that a "subjective" view of morality makes the whole idea of morality itself ridiculous, because it makes EVERYTHING a person can "experience" equally "moral," allegedly?

If you want to argue that there is also, in addition, a form of morality based on objective moral truth, then go ahead, but I don't think it can be done convincingly. Please yourself; I'll listen to your argument if you have one, or draw my own conclusions if you decide not to attempt one.

I'm not worried about arguing that. I don't have to, for present purposes, because even if I granted you that there were no such thing as objective morality, that would not imply there WAS such a thing as a subjective morality. It would imply, instead, that there was no such thing as morality at all.

That's the important insight: that whatever you decide, Subjectivism is not going to save the day. It's just not credible on its own terms...regardless of one's attitude to objective morality.

Right! There’s no such thing as objective morality, subjective morality is unworkable, and there’s really no such thing as morality.

[Immanuel Can]

So that is your position on the argument for objective morality, is it, you've decided not to attempt one?

No. I'll even go over the many arguments I've offered before, if you like

If you think you have an argument that is remotely convincing, to see it is what I would like.

We can do that.

once we've settled Subjectivism's hash, of course.

So let's just be clear. You are not prepared to present your argument unless I first abandon mine?

No, I can defend my view...it's just that it makes no difference, so far as you are concerned. If you want to believe in no morality at all, you can be a Nihilist. If you want to entertain Objectivism, then you can; but Subjectivism, if it has anything to commend it, should be able to stand or fall on its own.

When it tries, it fails. So we can rule out Subjectivism completely, regardless of whether Objectivism or Nihilism is the preferred choice. It's the one option that simply will not work -- whether there's a God and an objective truth about morality or not.

As for "being here before," it's interesting to me that you've paid absolutely no attention to any of the arguments for objective morality I've already raised. I wonder how a person can claim to have his eyes open, and yet not see things that are plainly in writing. What about the infinite regress argument, for example -- why does that not make any impression on you?

[Immanuel Can]

In case you hadn't noticed mass immigration is happening in every Western country.

That is true now, but that's new for Europe, relatively speaking. It's not new for the US. All that's new is the open southern border.

People don't go around 'envying' countries.

Sure, they do. They have no opportunities where they live, and dream of the riches and opportunity they hear is in America. It's always been that way, since America was founded, actually.

England was fully enclosed, with all the land owned, by the 17th Century. No wonder, then, that so many left to go to America. Then there was the Potato Famine in Ireland, and that drove others out to America. Then there were two world wars, with waves of immigration from mid-Europe after each. And the Cuban Boat Crisis, where, as they famously said, "All the boats go one way..." And now there's the Southern Border Crisis, which is not only admitting floods of Central and South Americans, but people from all over the world...China, Sudan, Cuba, the Middle East...

There's nothing new about people envying America and wishing to get there. It's an old story.

I'm pretty sure most of them go there for work, menial work.

That may, for some, turn out to be true; but it's certainly not why they go. They hope they will gain opportunities...and many do. The most successful communities in the US are "visible minority" communities, and ones that have experienced as much "discrimination" as anybody...the Chinese and the East Indians. Right now, they're more successful than any of the many "white" (so called by racists) communities.

As for historical immigrant communities, the Irish, the Dutch, the Italians, the Jews...all arrived poor, and didn't stay that way. Nowadays, they have successful communities and successful integration in the American system. There are still difficulties, to be sure; but an immigrant has a better shot in America than most other world nations, for sure. Which is why they're leaving their own country, and sneaking into America through the border.

The minimum wage is laughable,...

Minimum wage is appropriate for entry-level jobs only. It doesn't say much. Average income is probably the more relevant statistic.

[Immanuel Can]

Right! There’s no such thing as objective morality, subjective morality is unworkable, and there’s really no such thing as morality.

Well, I commend you on your consistency. That's exactly what a person who believes morality is individual would have to end up thinking. At least it's rational, which makes it at least more sensible than Subjectivism will ever be...if the assumption that there's no basis for objective morality is true.

Now we need to ask, is that correct?

[accelafine]

That is true now, but that's new for Europe, relatively speaking. It's not new for the US. All that's new is the open southern border.


Sure, they do. They have no opportunities where they live, and dream of the riches and opportunity they hear is in America. It's always been that way, since America was founded, actually.

England was fully enclosed, with all the land owned, by the 17th Century. No wonder, then, that so many left to go to America. Then there was the Potato Famine in Ireland, and that drove others out to America. Then there were two world wars, with waves of immigration from mid-Europe after each. And the Cuban Boat Crisis, where, as they famously said, "All the boats go one way..." And now there's the Southern Border Crisis, which is not only admitting floods of Central and South Americans, but people from all over the world...China, Sudan, Cuba, the Middle East...

There's nothing new about people envying America and wishing to get there. It's an old story.

I'm pretty sure most of them go there for work, menial work.

That may, for some, turn out to be true; but it's certainly not why they go. They hope they will gain opportunities...and many do. The most successful communities in the US are "visible minority" communities, and ones that have experienced as much "discrimination" as anybody...the Chinese and the East Indians. Right now, they're more successful than any of the many "white" (so called by racists) communities.

As for historical immigrant communities, the Irish, the Dutch, the Italians, the Jews...all arrived poor, and didn't stay that way. Nowadays, they have successful communities and successful integration in the American system. There are still difficulties, to be sure; but an immigrant has a better shot in America than most other world nations, for sure. Which is why they're leaving their own country, and sneaking into America through the border.

Yeah, 150 years ago. FFS!

[Immanuel Can]

I'm pretty sure most of them go there for work, menial work.

That may, for some, turn out to be true; but it's certainly not why they go. They hope they will gain opportunities...and many do. The most successful communities in the US are "visible minority" communities, and ones that have experienced as much "discrimination" as anybody...the Chinese and the East Indians. Right now, they're more successful than any of the many "white" (so called by racists) communities.

As for historical immigrant communities, the Irish, the Dutch, the Italians, the Jews...all arrived poor, and didn't stay that way. Nowadays, they have successful communities and successful integration in the American system. There are still difficulties, to be sure; but an immigrant has a better shot in America than most other world nations, for sure. Which is why they're leaving their own country, and sneaking into America through the border.

Yeah, 150 years ago. FFS!

No. Right now, too. There's a reason there's an economic migrant crisis at the southern border today. And it's not because America's a bad place to be.

[Harbal]

No. I'll even go over the many arguments I've offered before, if you like

If you think you have an argument that is remotely convincing, to see it is what I would like.

We can do that.

Okay, let's do it then.

You could start by explaining what you think morality actually is. As far as I can make out, all behaving morally amounts to in your view is obeying what you believe are God's wishes. If you think there is more to morality than that, perhaps you could define the term, to begin with.

[commonsense]

Right! There’s no such thing as objective morality, subjective morality is unworkable, and there’s really no such thing as morality.

Well, I commend you on your consistency. That's exactly what a person who believes morality is individual would have to end up thinking. At least it's rational, which makes it at least more sensible than Subjectivism will ever be...if the assumption that there's no basis for objective morality is true.

Now we need to ask, is that correct?

Are you now going to say that objective morality is correct on God, a feature whose existence has never been proved to exist?