Incest Deterrence & Morality is Objectivity

[Lorikeet]

Punishment for an immoral act need not be imposed by men, nor god.
The consequences, over time, suffice....
This distance between cause & effect is how simple minds remain blind to the repercussions of past actions.

[Lorikeet]

When it comes to human amendments to moral rules of behaviour, such as rules against adultery, or incest, or abortion, the consequences accumulate and compound, because men are unable to acknowledge an error if the negative consequences are not immediate and obvious, so they continue on adding to their original error in judgment additional errors founded on it, until they face a 'day of reckoning' which they then must blame on what is most temporally and spatially immediate.

[Lorikeet]

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And fear/anxiety is the mother of all emotions.

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We know what happened to Nietzsche....something many covet not realizing that Nietzsche was a genius, offering us psychological insights but entirely adopting Schopenhauer's metaphysics.
Nietzsche fertilized millions of minds, posothumously....they cannot.

Conventionally speaking, he was an Incel....through some may claim that he was voluntarily celibate, after the Salome affair.
Postmodern men-children seek in him an excuse, and a solution to their predicaments.
He failed to "live dangerously" when he failed to tackle the most dangerous cultural beast of them all: woman.

Women - genetic/memetic filter.
Nature's judge and jury.
When men seek nature's agency, they will find it in the female.

[Veritas Aequitas]

No.
Incest has the potential for recessive unfit mutations to express themselves phenotypically.
I cannot play any role in propogating unfit genes. But the opposite. By allowing these genes to express themselves it lowers the chance of those genes propogating to the degree which it impedes the reproduction of viable progeny.

The "unfit" genes have to be present in the genome in the first place.

One famous example of this is the recessive disease heamophilia, which would pop up amongst the Royal families of Europe. who had for centuries been marrying close relatives. The problem never expressed itself until two parents with the recessive gene produce offspiring who got both genes at a rate of 25%.
The offsping and the other 75% of siblings were perfectly healthy.

I agree with Lorikeet's
Incest increases the reproduction of unfit mutations, but it also propagates the same genes making them more vulnerable to shifting environmental circumstances.

How?
Think exactly about the form of words, then check my response to them.
And now tell me HOW.

I agree with your point in general.

My point is heamophilia is not solely due to incest.
It happens as long as two recessive genes got together regardless of whether it in incest situation or not.

[Veritas Aequitas]

I want to add a deviation to the above;

Kant expresses the principle of humanity (PH) as follows:
“Act in such a way that you treat humanity, whether in your own person or in the person of any other, never merely as a means, but always at the same time as an end” (Gr. 429).
It is a principle, Kant holds, that would describe the conduct of fully rational beings toward themselves and each other, so it is a principle that should describe the conduct of human (i.e., finite rational) beings toward themselves and each other.
https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.10 ... 9-4345-2_6

Say, humans live like the primate, orangutan, who are loners and only get together and mate and thereafter the mother alone take care of the baby.

Kant posited that to commit suicide is taking oneself as a mean to satisfy some end results, e.g. end mental sufferings, pains, etc.
So committing suicide while being alone [or in a social group] is immoral.
The moral principle and theory is, if the above is permissible as a moral principle, then it will follow that it is possible to make the species to extinction.
In practice, suicide may be permissible under certain conditions.

So, the point is man is inherently moral regardless of whether humans live in a group or as loners like the orangutan primate.

[Lorikeet]

Cooperative survival and reproductive strategies will include species that are not social but must socialize periodically, during their mating season.
Self-awareness, second-person, and objectivity, third-person perspectives allow a mind to identify with another and to project itself in space/time.
This is part of empathy, and morality.

Of course this empathy is not always sympathetic, for instance a hunter 'gets into his prey's mind' to kill it.

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Morality is what binds individuals into a group.
Ethics enhances this binding by extending it and reinforcing it.

Ethical rules prohibiting adultery is a good example.
Homo sapiens are not a monogamous species.
Monogamy was essential to the development of cohesive groups that integrated males.
This necessitated a restriction no human promiscuity.

Without this ethical rule a society would fall apart due to male competitiveness and would be severely affected even if it didn't fall apart - its competitiveness relative to other groups would be diminished.
To achieve this the status of alpha-male had to be enhanced.

[Sculptor]

I agree with Lorikeet's
Incest increases the reproduction of unfit mutations, but it also propagates the same genes making them more vulnerable to shifting environmental circumstances.

How?
Think exactly about the form of words, then check my response to them.
And now tell me HOW.

I agree with your point in general.

My point is heamophilia is not solely due to incest.
It happens as long as two recessive genes got together regardless of whether it in incest situation or not.

At last.
Thanks for that.
It's also interesting that incest can bring useful traits forward by the same means; those hidden by recessiveness.
Selective breeding has been used by humans not only amongst themselves but also with their domesticated species since the very moment we began to corral animals we have chosen those most pleasing.
Interbreeding goes hand in hand with domestic selection and selective breeeding.
In the Andes it is a traditional practice to kill and eat Llamas that have a tendancy to stray. The result is that the tendacy to tolerate people and stay in the herd is reinforced.
In humans the selection of characteristics has led to hairless, women with hugh and unfeasible breasts. It should be noted that most of the excess flesh is just fat. Small breasts are at least as efficient at milk production as large ones. But like the host bird that favours the cuckoo egg over its own; size matter to the eye.
It's reasonable to assume that white skin is also a result of selective breeding. FOr thousands of years a woman with pale skin is a sign of wealth since individuals with white skin are those that do not have to work the field or hunt, but stay at home. By the time the indo-Europeans reach europe this selection process is a standard as you can read in the Greek writers of the 1st millienium bce. This parallels the VitaminD factor advantage, which is incidentally quite small.
There are thousands of such examples of domestic selection, but none so stark as the breeds of dog. THis is where close breeding or inbreeding has been praciced for thousands of years repeatedly. Sadly what has been missing is the grace of natural selection. As long as the bitch reaches breeding age to have progeny the existing problems are never removed from the genome.
But what is key here is that the unfavorable genes are part of natural variation (which is no guided), and have to be present recessively to be exposed as problems by incest.
So the incest is not morally dubious objectively. Incest can expose preexisting potential genetic problems but mostly it has been consciously used to enhance and preserve desirable ones. You might not that the Hapsburgs whilst keeping their power "in the family" also inheritied a large distinctive jaw. Such a mutation (if you can all it that) migh be an inconvenience but also led to the family having a bodily sigil of distinction, worn proudly by the family a sign of wealth and power.
Victoria spawned heamophiliacs true, but not caused by inbreeding, bu revealed by inbreeding

After 20,000 years of selective breeding many dog breeds have problems. Yet there is no one breed that have not alos had an extended life span due to domestic care. The wolf from which all domesticated dogs derive.
IN the wild a wolf will suffer from a very steep age pyramid. Most could only expect 5 years, though claims put it to 12. Domestic dogs despite generations of inbreeding, crossbreeding, and selective breeding for the most absurd characteristic see 12 years as more of a minimum.
So despite hip dysplasia, breathing problems, and so on. Dogs are doong fine.

Now the reason I say all this is that I resist the tempation to imply an ought from an is. And remember findly the Mill owners children who as siblings gave birth to a healthy child. When you turn against them on the grounds of "moral objectivity" you are on a crusade against ordinary honest people who for whatever reason made love and brought up a child. In your world that child would be (and is) anathematised and traduced as a freak of nature. Yet on the fields behind their mill a thousand sheep - all the result of incest, close bredding and selective breeding happily munch away, because they are unaware of the Christian morality tha is the scourge of all humanity.

[promethean75]

Steely Dan
Cousin Dupree
https://youtu.be/80b4Y_d8W8o

"Now I've come back home to plan my next move from the comfort of my Aunt Faye's couch. When I see my little cousin Janine walk in
Well, all I could say was, "Ouch"

Honey, how you've grown
Like a rose
Well we used to play
When we were three
How about a kiss for your cousin Dupree"

Comments: "i love how creepy lyrics is the hallmark of steely dan"

Study question: should dupree engage in incestuous acts with his cousin janine if she obliges?

[LuckyR]

Steely Dan
Cousin Dupree
https://youtu.be/80b4Y_d8W8o

"Now I've come back home to plan my next move from the comfort of my Aunt Faye's couch. When I see my little cousin Janine walk in
Well, all I could say was, "Ouch"

Honey, how you've grown
Like a rose
Well we used to play
When we were three
How about a kiss for your cousin Dupree"

Comments: "i love how creepy lyrics is the hallmark of steely dan"

Study question: should dupree engage in incestuous acts with his cousin janine if she obliges?

One of the hallmarks. Ignoring the licks and solos would be a huge mistake.

Sure, why not? Marriage between first cousins is legal in the majority of states, but you're only talking about sex, not marriage.

[promethean75]

"Ignoring the licks and solos would be a huge mistake."

And neither Fagen or Becker are instrument virtuosos. Neither one of em can shred but they're unmatched in the studio when it comes to writing and producing songs. The music is so well thought out, arranged and polished that even the bad songs are well written.

I hear the secret sauce that makes SD so good is the mu chord.

[LuckyR]

"Ignoring the licks and solos would be a huge mistake."

And neither Fagen or Becker are instrument virtuosos. Neither one of em can shred but they're unmatched in the studio when it comes to writing and producing songs. The music is so well thought out, arranged and polished that even the bad songs are well written.

I hear the secret sauce that makes SD so good is the mu chord.

Right. "Steely Dan" after the first album, was their songwriting and session aces providing the playing.

[Veritas Aequitas]

How?
Think exactly about the form of words, then check my response to them.
And now tell me HOW.

I agree with your point in general.

My point is heamophilia is not solely due to incest.
It happens as long as two recessive genes got together regardless of whether it in incest situation or not.

At last.
Thanks for that.
It's also interesting that incest can bring useful traits forward by the same means; those hidden by recessiveness.
Selective breeding has been used by humans not only amongst themselves but also with their domesticated species since the very moment we began to corral animals we have chosen those most pleasing.
Interbreeding goes hand in hand with domestic selection and selective breeeding.
In the Andes it is a traditional practice to kill and eat Llamas that have a tendancy to stray. The result is that the tendacy to tolerate people and stay in the herd is reinforced.
In humans the selection of characteristics has led to hairless, women with hugh and unfeasible breasts. It should be noted that most of the excess flesh is just fat. Small breasts are at least as efficient at milk production as large ones. But like the host bird that favours the cuckoo egg over its own; size matter to the eye.
It's reasonable to assume that white skin is also a result of selective breeding. FOr thousands of years a woman with pale skin is a sign of wealth since individuals with white skin are those that do not have to work the field or hunt, but stay at home. By the time the indo-Europeans reach europe this selection process is a standard as you can read in the Greek writers of the 1st millienium bce. This parallels the VitaminD factor advantage, which is incidentally quite small.
There are thousands of such examples of domestic selection, but none so stark as the breeds of dog. THis is where close breeding or inbreeding has been praciced for thousands of years repeatedly. Sadly what has been missing is the grace of natural selection. As long as the bitch reaches breeding age to have progeny the existing problems are never removed from the genome.
But what is key here is that the unfavorable genes are part of natural variation (which is no guided), and have to be present recessively to be exposed as problems by incest.
So the incest is not morally dubious objectively. Incest can expose preexisting potential genetic problems but mostly it has been consciously used to enhance and preserve desirable ones. You might not that the Hapsburgs whilst keeping their power "in the family" also inheritied a large distinctive jaw. Such a mutation (if you can all it that) migh be an inconvenience but also led to the family having a bodily sigil of distinction, worn proudly by the family a sign of wealth and power.
Victoria spawned heamophiliacs true, but not caused by inbreeding, bu revealed by inbreeding

After 20,000 years of selective breeding many dog breeds have problems. Yet there is no one breed that have not alos had an extended life span due to domestic care. The wolf from which all domesticated dogs derive.
IN the wild a wolf will suffer from a very steep age pyramid. Most could only expect 5 years, though claims put it to 12. Domestic dogs despite generations of inbreeding, crossbreeding, and selective breeding for the most absurd characteristic see 12 years as more of a minimum.
So despite hip dysplasia, breathing problems, and so on. Dogs are doong fine.

Now the reason I say all this is that I resist the tempation to imply an ought from an is. And remember findly the Mill owners children who as siblings gave birth to a healthy child. When you turn against them on the grounds of "moral objectivity" you are on a crusade against ordinary honest people who for whatever reason made love and brought up a child. In your world that child would be (and is) anathematised and traduced as a freak of nature. Yet on the fields behind their mill a thousand sheep - all the result of incest, close bredding and selective breeding happily munch away, because they are unaware of the Christian morality tha is the scourge of all humanity.

Do you have reference to support humans in general has been using 'incest' as a tool for something positive or progress?

Currently there are laws on 'incest' all over the world with relation to varying kinship. From the legal perspective, there are oughts from is.

Laws regarding incest (i.e. sexual activity between family members or close relatives) vary considerably between jurisdictions, and depend on the type of sexual activity and the nature of the family relationship of the parties involved, as well as the age and sex of the parties.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_incest

Before there were laws on incest, there were;

Besides legal prohibitions, at least some forms of incest are also socially taboo or frowned upon in most cultures around the world.

I understand there could be positives from inbreeding, but those are accidental and deviations from the incest 'ougthnot-ness'.

From the above, my point is there is objective inbreeding avoidance oughtnot_ness which is represented by its physical neural correlates. This is scientific and an objective science-evolutionary biological fact.
When this objective scientific fact is inputted into a moral framework and system it is a qualified moral fact.
On this basis morality is objective.

There is a difference between 'ought' [modal verb] and 'oughtness' [noun] which is a fact when justified within a Framework and System [FS], e.g. the oughtnon-ness of incest as a moral objective fact qualified to a moral FS.

[Sculptor]

I agree with your point in general.

My point is heamophilia is not solely due to incest.
It happens as long as two recessive genes got together regardless of whether it in incest situation or not.

At last.
Thanks for that.
It's also interesting that incest can bring useful traits forward by the same means; those hidden by recessiveness.
Selective breeding has been used by humans not only amongst themselves but also with their domesticated species since the very moment we began to corral animals we have chosen those most pleasing.
Interbreeding goes hand in hand with domestic selection and selective breeeding.
In the Andes it is a traditional practice to kill and eat Llamas that have a tendancy to stray. The result is that the tendacy to tolerate people and stay in the herd is reinforced.
In humans the selection of characteristics has led to hairless, women with hugh and unfeasible breasts. It should be noted that most of the excess flesh is just fat. Small breasts are at least as efficient at milk production as large ones. But like the host bird that favours the cuckoo egg over its own; size matter to the eye.
It's reasonable to assume that white skin is also a result of selective breeding. FOr thousands of years a woman with pale skin is a sign of wealth since individuals with white skin are those that do not have to work the field or hunt, but stay at home. By the time the indo-Europeans reach europe this selection process is a standard as you can read in the Greek writers of the 1st millienium bce. This parallels the VitaminD factor advantage, which is incidentally quite small.
There are thousands of such examples of domestic selection, but none so stark as the breeds of dog. THis is where close breeding or inbreeding has been praciced for thousands of years repeatedly. Sadly what has been missing is the grace of natural selection. As long as the bitch reaches breeding age to have progeny the existing problems are never removed from the genome.
But what is key here is that the unfavorable genes are part of natural variation (which is no guided), and have to be present recessively to be exposed as problems by incest.
So the incest is not morally dubious objectively. Incest can expose preexisting potential genetic problems but mostly it has been consciously used to enhance and preserve desirable ones. You might not that the Hapsburgs whilst keeping their power "in the family" also inheritied a large distinctive jaw. Such a mutation (if you can all it that) migh be an inconvenience but also led to the family having a bodily sigil of distinction, worn proudly by the family a sign of wealth and power.
Victoria spawned heamophiliacs true, but not caused by inbreeding, bu revealed by inbreeding

After 20,000 years of selective breeding many dog breeds have problems. Yet there is no one breed that have not alos had an extended life span due to domestic care. The wolf from which all domesticated dogs derive.
IN the wild a wolf will suffer from a very steep age pyramid. Most could only expect 5 years, though claims put it to 12. Domestic dogs despite generations of inbreeding, crossbreeding, and selective breeding for the most absurd characteristic see 12 years as more of a minimum.
So despite hip dysplasia, breathing problems, and so on. Dogs are doong fine.

Now the reason I say all this is that I resist the tempation to imply an ought from an is. And remember findly the Mill owners children who as siblings gave birth to a healthy child. When you turn against them on the grounds of "moral objectivity" you are on a crusade against ordinary honest people who for whatever reason made love and brought up a child. In your world that child would be (and is) anathematised and traduced as a freak of nature. Yet on the fields behind their mill a thousand sheep - all the result of incest, close bredding and selective breeding happily munch away, because they are unaware of the Christian morality tha is the scourge of all humanity.

Do you have reference to support humans in general has been using 'incest' as a tool for something positive or progress?

Example already given of European Royal families. Also Pharoahs of Egypt, and anthropologically look up endogamy.

But in animal breeding the examples are legion.

Currently there are laws on 'incest' all over the world with relation to varying kinship. From the legal perspective, there are oughts from is.



Before there were laws on incest, there were;



I understand there could be positives from inbreeding, but those are accidental and deviations from the incest 'ougthnot-ness'.

From the above, my point is there is objective inbreeding avoidance oughtnot_ness which is represented by its physical neural correlates. This is scientific and an objective science-evolutionary biological fact.
When this objective scientific fact is inputted into a moral framework and system it is a qualified moral fact.
On this basis morality is objective.

There is a difference between 'ought' [modal verb] and 'oughtness' [noun] which is a fact when justified within a Framework and System [FS], e.g. the oughtnon-ness of incest as a moral objective fact qualified to a moral FS.

[promethean75]

"was their songwriting and session aces providing the playing."

Oh Don and Walter used all the aces. Jeff 'skunk' Baxter is one of the baddest guitarists you'll ever hear that u never heard of. Wayne Shorter from Weather Report. Steve Gadd... here he goes right here: https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxJl1rXuol69 ... JHHEnAZ-nD

And then later they had dennis chambers play it when they were touring.

[promethean75]

If i had one CD and were stuck on an island, SD would take up a quarter of it. That song Aja would absolutely be on it.