Christian Civilization -- The Central Issue

[Alexis Jacobi]

I don’t know. I’m still mulling it over. But that post, if intended to insult and besmear has left me … unsatisfied. Could you not have held back until you’d come up with something … slightly more devastating?

Fact is I feel short changed.

You are slipping, Dubes.

[Dubious]

Fact is I feel short changed.

My apologies! I never meant for you to feel that way. My mention of you was meant to be sincere.

[Alexiev]

It has been for me a strange but also a curious conflict. All of my personal background, my university friends and friends growing up, and myself, were of that Left-Progressive orientation. When the Left was actually a Left that could be respected -- pro-family, anti-immigration (illegal immigration), antiwar, pro-free-speech, and opposed to corporate manipulation -- their platforms made sense. But everything has switched around in very strange ways in our present. To the degree that it is hard to sort things out. In fact I do not have it sorted out. Though I am aware that power-games and power-wars are going on all around us.

Are you opposed to illegal immigration? Do you think we should give North America back to the Indians?

Idiotic argument. Back to the drawing board.

It wasn't an argument. It was a question.

I don't understand why those of a Libertarian bent oppose immigration. Shouldn't freedom of movement be a basic human right? Isn't the U.S. a nation of immigrants? Was the early settlement of the U.S. O.K, because the indigenous population didn't have written laws? Why should non-citizens feel bound by U.S. laws? If they are not bound by U.S. laws, why shouldn't they try to immigrate illegally, if they can?

[Alexis Jacobi]

It wasn't an argument. It was a question.

It was not a question it was a loaded comment with specific intention. It was stupid and now you are compounding it.

Only good Injin is a dead Injin!

[Alexiev]

It wasn't an argument. It was a question.

It was not a question it was a loaded comment with specific intention. It was stupid and now you are compounding it.

Only good Injin is a dead Injin!

Wrong again. The question is reasonable. Which is more basic? Freedom (including freedom of movement)? Or the laws of any particular nation?

Also (since the title of this thread is "Christian Civilization") where, when and why are people morally obligated to follow the laws of the land (such as those regulating immigration)? On whom do these obligations rest?

If you are assuming (as might be the case, I'm not sure) that I'm advocating for the Indians right to keep Europeans out, you are mistaken. You obviously don't know what my "specific intention" was, and it's presumptuous of you to think you do.

[Wizard22]

It has been for me a strange but also a curious conflict. All of my personal background, my university friends and friends growing up, and myself, were of that Left-Progressive orientation. When the Left was actually a Left that could be respected -- pro-family, anti-immigration (illegal immigration), antiwar, pro-free-speech, and opposed to corporate manipulation -- their platforms made sense. But everything has switched around in very strange ways in our present. To the degree that it is hard to sort things out. In fact I do not have it sorted out. Though I am aware that power-games and power-wars are going on all around us.

When I realized what Left-Progressivism in its association with the State was set on, I naturally turned back to those who have been dispossessed in the sense expressed by Wilmot Robinson:

My life has many similar experiences. It seems you, myself, and seeds are all West Coast (Best Coast) spawns...well, it used to be the Best, only two or three decades ago...the "Left-Progressives" turned on almost all, or all, of their self-professed beliefs. This is something I critiqued and argued against seeds, but didn't seem to make a dent. The post-hippies/hipsters on the West Coast, the leftovers of the 1970s counter-culture, claimed their primary value and morality in life was/is "World Peace". And yet, they would not vote nor support the likes of Donald Trump, even if that were the 'Devil's Price' for "World Peace". And the Trump-Derangement-Syndrome does represent the grave weakness and failing of the Liberal-Left/Progressives.

What it all revealed to me was/is—that they never actually cared or believed in their supposedly public Self-Righteousness and Justice. It was, and is, only about Political Power. That's what they actually wanted. And they hoped, with the Hilary-Obama Administrations, that they would finally claim 100% full political power. They thought they were going to own the world. This is why they're so hung-up on Trump. This is why they are deranged. Again, because they are and were willing to expose themselves, that all of their previously 'Liberal' moral values and beliefs, were in fact empty!! They had no real moral beliefs, no real Righteousness...because of their Secularist-Atheist-Agnostic metaphysical underpinnings.

They actually, truly believe in: Nothing! Because they are the Nihilists. Their ideology and religion (the Religious-Left) is Nihilism!

To me, it was shocking, not that I hadn't had suspicions about them before...growing up with them all around me, on all sides...but primarily because of when, they thought they were safe, they 'exposed' themselves so brazenly, proudly, and auspiciously. As-if they wouldn't drive the moderates from their own ranks, who now cower and hide, waiting for the next social fad and virtue-signaling epidemic to wave a new flag and 'come out' again.

Much of this is what drove me to the "Conservative-Right". If I'm going to be forced to deal with religious Fundamentalists (from the Left), then I at least want them to be Honest with their faith, mysticism, morality, ideology, etc. And in this, the Christian Fundamentalists are far more trustworthy. Because I don't want to have and raise children in a Liberal-Leftist "Utopia" that plants pornography in kids' libraries! Or that their Sin is now their Pride Parades while they chastise Conservatives "what people do in the privacy of their own homes is not your business!" It's on the street! It's not in "their own homes"! It's in every child's hands, when they gain access to a smartphone!

Therefore in respect to what Wizard has said in the above-quoted paragraph, I make my commitments with those who seem better aligned with those general metaphysical principles that I have been outlining over the months and years. I have wavered though. For example in my conflicts with Immanuel Can (who is a terrible apologist for Christian values). Then the task become to go further to the root and to discern and try to understand, and if possible to appreciate, what is there at the very core of Traditional Catholicism. Because that is the most orignal nexus of Europe -- and it is to *Europe* that I make my personal commitment.

The more I reflect on this topic and your thread...

The more I understand the underpinnings and primary causes. America is not Europe. And Europe is not America. Yet almost all Americans identify as "American" far before "European" (or our ethnic countries), through the filter of "Classical Liberalism", in such a way that we (Americans) have a chance to "re-invent" ourselves, our culture, our identity, choosing which parts of our past (including Christianity) we will keep or throwaway. And this is most reflected in the recent century.

America is not adjusted (yet) to Imperialism. Our original governmental conception was/is: strictly Republican. The Founding Fathers were deeply inspired by the Enlightenment period and philosophers, along with Græco-Roman posterity (reflecting the Roman Architecture in Washington DC). These were Anti-Catholic Protestants, who did not want to give the Pope a stronghold in America, out of historic grudges and warfare. The Anglicans were (and still are to this day, on this forum) resentful of Catholic ideological supremacy.

Here is a contradiction, perhaps the most obvious...

Anglicans (British Islanders) had a brief time of world Imperialism and Dominion, because of naval supremacy...but also had a Monarchy and Feudal Lord system to back it up. However, they did not want to cowtow to the Catholic Romans and Vatican. Thus they started their own (Per)version of Catholicism in their Anglican Church. Their 'Protest' was, and is, a political resentiment.

Yet, the American Protestants took the Roman Architecture and philosophical underpinnings. So this creates a duplicitous semblance of 'Christianity' in the West. And it worked and was practical, while in the early Colonial phases. It worked in the 1500s, 1600s, 1700s, and 1800s. But it's *NO LONGER* working the 1900s and 2000s. Because the nature of any Empire/Imperialism, especially a 'Globalist' one, must have a centralized morality or an undisputed, absolute, Monotheistic Church.

The Founding Fathers could never have envisioned how large and domineering the Anglo Colonies would become...to today, after WWII, global air travel, smart phones, internet, etc.

Basically, the West is unfit to deal with the cultural clashes and moral panic occurring...because we don't have the proper foundations to deal with them (a centralized Church/Morality). Unlike the Roman Empire, which did (the CC).

[Alexiev]

Yet, the American Protestants took the Roman Architecture and philosophical underpinnings. So this creates a duplicitous semblance of 'Christianity' in the West. And it worked and was practical, while in the early Colonial phases. It worked in the 1500s, 1600s, 1700s, and 1800s. But it's *NO LONGER* working the 1900s and 2000s. Because the nature of any Empire/Imperialism, especially a 'Globalist' one, must have a centralized morality or an undisputed, absolute, Monotheistic Church.

The Founding Fathers could never have envisioned how large and domineering the Anglo Colonies would become...to today, after WWII, global air travel, smart phones, internet, etc.

Basically, the West is unfit to deal with the cultural clashes and moral panic occurring...because we don't have the proper foundations to deal with them (a centralized Church/Morality). Unlike the Roman Empire, which did (the CC).

Huh? There have been Empires that were not Monotheistic (Rome for the first 600 years, Egypt, Babylon and more). There have also been Empires with diverse religions (the Mongols, who had the largest empire of all time and adopted a variety of religions from their conquests).

Of course all of these empires eventually fell apart, but many lasted longer than any monotheistic empires. It may be true that centralized morality helps empire building, but there's not much evidence supporting that.

[seeds]

It has been for me a strange but also a curious conflict. All of my personal background, my university friends and friends growing up, and myself, were of that Left-Progressive orientation. When the Left was actually a Left that could be respected -- pro-family, anti-immigration (illegal immigration), antiwar, pro-free-speech, and opposed to corporate manipulation -- their platforms made sense. But everything has switched around in very strange ways in our present. To the degree that it is hard to sort things out. In fact I do not have it sorted out. Though I am aware that power-games and power-wars are going on all around us.

When I realized what Left-Progressivism in its association with the State was set on, I naturally turned back to those who have been dispossessed in the sense expressed by Wilmot Robinson:

My life has many similar experiences. It seems you, myself, and seeds are all West Coast (Best Coast) spawns...well, it used to be the Best, only two or three decades ago...the "Left-Progressives" turned on almost all, or all, of their self-professed beliefs. This is something I critiqued and argued against seeds, but didn't seem to make a dent.

Nah, I'm a spawn of the Motown suburbs.

Not that I presume that anyone cares, but I provided a partial autobiography in my thread titled: "My "Burning Bush-like" encounter with God" - viewtopic.php?t=41452 which explains why I am the way I am.

My mini autobiography also explains why you can't "make a dent" in something that you - (in your state of somnambulism) - are not awake enough to comprehend.

That was not meant as an insult.

No, it was merely intended to point out that the sooner you and AJ realize that compared to the true intelligence presiding over this universe, we humans are nothing more than the metaphorical equivalent of amoebas suspended in a drop of water,...

...then the sooner you will understand what I mean by "somnambulism" and just how "tempesty-in-a-teapoty" our little arguments truly are.

And just so that we are clear on this "TDS" business, I don't trust any politicians, no matter who they are.

To me they're all just a bunch of (sleep-walking) liars who seem to be nothing more than the older versions of the power-hungry little nerds who ran for the student council or class president back in high school.

Clearly, they all lie, but Trump takes home the "GOLD" in that competition, which is why he is worthy of the most scorn and distrust.

Basically, the West is unfit to deal with the cultural clashes and moral panic occurring...because we don't have the proper foundations to deal with them (a centralized Church/Morality). Unlike the Roman Empire, which did (the CC).

I can agree with that, Wiz, to which I would add my usual assertion of how the west (more specifically, America) is reaping the negative (necrotizing) karma from all of the death, destruction, and treachery it has sown across the planet over the last 6 or 7 decades through its Imperialistic endeavors.
_______

[Alexis Jacobi]

Basically, the West is unfit to deal with the cultural clashes and moral panic occurring...because we don't have the proper foundations to deal with them (a centralized Church/Morality). Unlike the Roman Empire, which did (the CC).

I can agree with that, Wiz, to which I would add my usual assertion of how the west (more specifically, America) is reaping the negative (necrotizing) karma from all of the death, destruction, and treachery it has sown across the planet over the last 6 or 7 decades through its Imperialistic endeavors.

Interesting to consider the difference between “God’s wrath” and “karma”.

[Gary Childress]

Only good Injin is a dead Injin!

[seeds]

Basically, the West is unfit to deal with the cultural clashes and moral panic occurring...because we don't have the proper foundations to deal with them (a centralized Church/Morality). Unlike the Roman Empire, which did (the CC).

I can agree with that, Wiz, to which I would add my usual assertion of how the west (more specifically, America) is reaping the negative (necrotizing) karma from all of the death, destruction, and treachery it has sown across the planet over the last 6 or 7 decades through its Imperialistic endeavors.

Interesting to consider the difference between “God’s wrath” and “karma”.

I tend to think of karma as simply being part of the "programming" in the informational underpinning of the universe.

Speculatively speaking,...

...I suggest that God has designed the system in such a way that his (her/its) central consciousness does not need to be personally present and aware of every piddly (or large) moral infraction we humans commit in order for justice to be meted out.

And that's because the programmed (mechanistic) turnings of the cogs and wheels of karma take care of it in some, perhaps, unexpected way that may not even seem to be directly related to the initial infraction(s).

In other words, in the same way that the "CEO" of the universe "delegates" the tedious grunt-work involved in the creation of human bodies and brains (and all other lifeforms, for that matter) to suns, cells, and DNA,...



...likewise, the grunt-work involved in figuring out who did something wrong and then dispensing justice is delegated to, again, some sort of programmed process.

The same could also be said about the subtle workings of prayer, wherein instead of imagining the incredulous situation of God, personally (and constantly) listening to billions of simultaneously occurring prayers,...

...the prayers are simply dealt with in some mechanistic (again "programmed") way - granted or denied - depending on whether or not what is being requested is feasible, and not something that might breach the integrity of the illusion of objective reality.

That way, God's central consciousness (her "I Am-ness")...

(not being limited by the speed of light, btw)

...is free to be anywhere in the universe of her mind, observing, interacting with, and enjoying the vastness and variety of her creation.
_______

[Lorikeet]

The center of this central issue is Abrahamism.
We may even trace it back to Gnosticism - the source of all this madness.
It is an issue because all three of the major Abrahamic variants are nihilistic to their core.

This current insanity we call "wokeness," is part of its "logic."
Transgender madness is part of its nihilistic "logic" pushed to its self-referential ends.
From secular to spiritual nihilism.
Conventional definitions of 'nihilism' are, of course, part of the modern/postmodern nihilistic paradigm, describing what makes life possible, void of a universal morality, a god, and purpose' (an end), as a 'negative' when, in fact it is a positive.

The idea is rooted in the insanity of an incorporeal "soul" imprisoned within a corporeal body.

[Age]

I can agree with that, Wiz, to which I would add my usual assertion of how the west (more specifically, America) is reaping the negative (necrotizing) karma from all of the death, destruction, and treachery it has sown across the planet over the last 6 or 7 decades through its Imperialistic endeavors.

Interesting to consider the difference between “God’s wrath” and “karma”.

I tend to think of karma as simply being part of the "programming" in the informational underpinning of the universe.

Speculatively speaking,...

...I suggest that God has designed the system in such a way that his (her/its) central consciousness does not need to be personally present and aware of every piddly (or large) moral infraction we humans commit in order for justice to be meted out.

And that's because the programmed (mechanistic) turnings of the cogs and wheels of karma take care of it in some, perhaps, unexpected way that may not even seem to be directly related to the initial infraction(s).

In other words, in the same way that the "CEO" of the universe "delegates" the tedious grunt-work involved in the creation of human bodies and brains (and all other lifeforms, for that matter) to suns, cells, and DNA,...



...likewise, the grunt-work involved in figuring out who did something wrong and then dispensing justice is delegated to, again, some sort of programmed process.

The same could also be said about the subtle workings of prayer, wherein instead of imagining the incredulous situation of God, personally (and constantly) listening to billions of simultaneously occurring prayers,...

...the prayers are simply dealt with in some mechanistic (again "programmed") way - granted or denied - depending on whether or not what is being requested is feasible, and not something that might breach the integrity of the illusion of objective reality.

That way, God's central consciousness (her "I Am-ness")...

(not being limited by the speed of light, btw)

...is free to be anywhere in the universe of her mind, observing, interacting with, and enjoying the vastness and variety of her creation.
_______

Why do you human beings, even in the days when this is being written, still anthropomorphize things?

Why is there a constant belief that God is gendered, or a constant want to try to put a gender onto God, Itself?

Once you learn why you continually do this, then this will help you in discovering, and/or learning, and knowing what the actual Truth is here.

[Age]

The center of this central issue is Abrahamism.
We may even trace it back to Gnosticism - the source of all this madness.
It is an issue because all three of the major Abrahamic variants are nihilistic to their core.

This current insanity we call "wokeness," is part of its "logic."
Transgender madness is part of its nihilistic "logic" pushed to its self-referential ends.
From secular to spiritual nihilism.
Conventional definitions of 'nihilism' are, of course, part of the modern/postmodern nihilistic paradigm, describing what makes life possible, void of a universal morality, a god, and purpose' (an end), as a 'negative' when, in fact it is a positive.

The idea is rooted in the insanity of an incorporeal "soul" imprisoned within a corporeal body.

Do you believe that there are no incorporeal souls within human bodies?

If yes, then why, exactly?

[Wizard22]

Huh? There have been Empires that were not Monotheistic (Rome for the first 600 years, Egypt, Babylon and more). There have also been Empires with diverse religions (the Mongols, who had the largest empire of all time and adopted a variety of religions from their conquests).

Of course all of these empires eventually fell apart, but many lasted longer than any monotheistic empires. It may be true that centralized morality helps empire building, but there's not much evidence supporting that.

Rome and the Vatican have been around for nearly 2000 years; the German nations called themselves the Holy Roman Empire in 1512.

Can you give me some examples of "many lasted longer than any monotheistic empires"?