Christian Civilization -- The Central Issue

[Gary Childress]

Harbal is a past master at seeing and understanding nothing. That is where his commitment lies! Amazing as that is he is only getting better day by day.

Perhaps I understand a little too much.

Shhh. It'll make Alexis feel bad. Just play along...

[Harbal]

Harbal is a past master at seeing and understanding nothing. That is where his commitment lies! Amazing as that is he is only getting better day by day.

Perhaps I understand a little too much.

Shhh. It'll make Alexis feel bad. Just play along...

So should we pretend that his personal vision for society actually matters to anybody?

[Gary Childress]

Perhaps I understand a little too much.

Shhh. It'll make Alexis feel bad. Just play along...

So should we pretend that his personal vision for society actually matters to anybody?

I don't know. I was just joking.

[Harbal]

Shhh. It'll make Alexis feel bad. Just play along...

So should we pretend that his personal vision for society actually matters to anybody?

I don't know. I was just joking.

Joking is good, Gary. We only have to look at Alexis and Wazzo to see what can happen when matters are taken too seriously.

[Gary Childress]

So should we pretend that his personal vision for society actually matters to anybody?

I don't know. I was just joking.

Joking is good, Gary. We only have to look at Alexis and Wazzo to see what can happen when matters are taken too seriously.

Unfortunately, I do get that impression as well. But what can we do?

[Alexis Jacobi]

That seems to answer my earlier question. At times it has seemed like you consider yourself modernist and haven't managed to do this as more than a grand idea, and at other times as something you have managed to believe in/have faith in. If you haven't managed, how do you know this is necessary. If you have, well, then I understand more clearly why you believe it is necessary. I realize I am focusing on you, while I am not interested in focus on me. But given that you and Wizard both seem to want people to believe things or see it as necessary and at least his case don't believe a central part of it, I wonder what that means. But if you have managed to move from the modernist metaphysics to a christian metaphysics, then I am not confused.

You are zeroing in I think to the •core•. I do not mind particularly a personal focus because, I am sure of it, I am an exemplar of and an outcome of the radical rebellion I describe — as a cultural and civilizational issue.

When I came to grasp the acute essence of Catholic/Christian morality — ultra-demanding and strict as well as indicating the consequences of sin (offenses to higher being, God if you wish) — the reality of what I’d lived and what I considered normal, acceptable and •good• became clear to me. If I speak of consequences I do mean those that affect the soul.

We set up the trajectory of our soul, if you catch my meaning.

I do not blame myself overall for those choices made — my parents and my parental generation forged the entire territory — but now I see how deviant it all was. I am alluding to many years of meditation on “the past” and, as I think is the case for all people if they are tuned-in, various levels of remorse or regret. These are entirely subjective processes. When one measures and evaluates oneself.

Now, and as it happens, our culture (factions within our culture) are realizing they must deal with •liberal rot• on all levels, and naturally the personal and spiritual element. The reference is to •repentance•. Yet there is also the issue of social activism (for one example in respect to the perversion of children in the schools).

Wizard, well-versed and well-informed of the depth and breadth of all having to do with •liberal rot• puts it out there shotgun-style. Thus — he responds.

The Grand Idea (I got that from Camille Paglia) of our civilization is, for her, just an Idea (she is an atheist I gather) The idea, taken alone, is valid and powerful, but one’s relationship does change when it becomes personal.

I think we have to go back to the very root of the founding of our civilization: it really does have to do with a realness of relationship with that which made us — i.e. our creator. It all depends on how serious one takes that — and life itself really.

[Iwannaplato]

I'm still not sure if it is mainly on a grand idea level for you now or if you have managed to come into the relationship, direct experiencing of the religion/metaphysics you think is important.

[Alexis Jacobi]

I'm still not sure if it is mainly on a grand idea level for you now or if you have managed to come into the relationship, direct experiencing of the religion/metaphysics you think is important.

I guess you will have to become comfortable carrying on your existence within that proverbial cloud of unknowing. I only hope the agony of your situation doesn’t tip you over some inner edge. Remain cool snd collected, bro.

[Iwannaplato]

I'm still not sure if it is mainly on a grand idea level for you now or if you have managed to come into the relationship, direct experiencing of the religion/metaphysics you think is important.

I guess you will have to become comfortable carrying on your existence within that proverbial cloud of unknowing. I only hope the agony of your situation doesn’t tip you over some inner edge. Remain cool snd collected, bro.

And I can only hope that the terror of being clear is something that subsides for you over time. For myself, I can manage to not ask the follow-up question I would have asked, if such clarity had been present, without suffering more agony then a mild hiccup.

You and Wizard do make a nice odd couple tag team: cryptic cop and brusque cop.

[Alexis Jacobi]

And I can only hope that the terror of being clear is something that subsides for you over time. For myself, I can manage to not ask the follow-up question I would have asked, if such clarity had been present, without suffering more agony then a mild hiccup.

You and Wizard do make a nice odd couple tag team: cryptic cop and brusque cop.

Hey there buddy. I have been extremely forthcoming about my own thinking and my own internal world. So (politely!) piss off.

If you wish to personalize these exchanges talk about yourself. You have been and remain extremely non-forthcoming. Don’t fucking lecture me about clarity.

[Alexis Jacobi]

For myself, I can manage to not ask the follow-up question I would have asked, if such clarity had been present, without suffering more agony then a mild hiccup.

My suggestion? Drop the “I am your inquisitor” act; realize how honest and direct I have been; and share your opinions of the general (cultural, civilizational) situation that we all now face.

[Iwannaplato]

And I can only hope that the terror of being clear is something that subsides for you over time. For myself, I can manage to not ask the follow-up question I would have asked, if such clarity had been present, without suffering more agony then a mild hiccup.

You and Wizard do make a nice odd couple tag team: cryptic cop and brusque cop.

Hey there buddy. I have been extremely forthcoming about my own thinking and my own internal world. So (politely!) piss off.

If you wish to personalize these exchanges talk about yourself. You have been and remain extremely non-forthcoming. Don’t fucking lecture me about clarity.

1) I think the post where you were supposedly answering my questioning was not clear.
2) You seem to be confused about what a lecture is.
3) Oh, dear, the emotionalism!!! Please be balanced. Or not hypocritical.
4) Again and again when disagreeing or critiquing what I write - here mainly in fun - you use new words as if they have the same meaning as what I wrote. I said NOTHING about forthcoming. I did focus on clarity, for example.
5) There is an important difference between your continuously assessing my mind and worldview and my asking your about yours in YOUR thread where you have brought up your own personal experiences and connected them to the topic. Further, given that it is your thread and you consider specific metaphysical attitudes and experiences to be central, it is on topic to wonder how you know this. Presumably based, in part on your own experience, which you yourself introduced into the topic. IOW if you think we need to have those kinds of metaphysical attitudes and experiences, yet you yourself have not had these, how do you know it is necessary. Wizard, for example, while respecting the CC, is an atheist. You seem to respect his reaction and perception of the problem, so does he in fact need to have the kind of relationship with God that you focus on? Does he need that core metaphysical attitude?
I raise the issue of Wizard not for you to answer about him, but to point out why my asking about your beliefs IS on topic, while my beliefs are not.

This is not my thread. Your guesses about me, for example, having a modern mind not really capable of taking supernatural metaphysics literally were not only incorrect, but they weren't necessary for presenting your position - since it had nothing to do with your position or the topic of the thread. Again, it had nothing to do with it. Which I have explained before, a few times.

I asked for more clarity.
You responded:

I guess you will have to become comfortable carrying on your existence within that proverbial cloud of unknowing. I only hope the agony of your situation doesn’t tip you over some inner edge. Remain cool snd collected, bro.

I responded in kind with a playful post, and in fact accepted: Ok, he's not going to clarify for me.

So, remain cool and collected yourself, since that is supposedly one of your values: or perhaps it's only other people's emotions you have distaste for.

We've had a testy interaction here, but if you actually read the thread, I think you'll see I'm one of the few people in the forum actually interested in the topic and actively engaging with the ideas.

But I'll leave you to it. Uninterested in clarifying, hypocrisy and managing not to remember or perhaps read things I have explained several times. Boring! Enjoy your remaining interlocutors. You deserve their lack of interest and lack of respect.

[FlashDangerpants]

how honest and direct I have been

Good one

[Alexis Jacobi]

Further, given that it is your thread …

My thread? What a crazy idea. One doesn’t own threads. And if experience is any indication one can never assume ownership. You are hiding behind that absurd assertion.

Come out into the open …

But I'll leave you to it. Uninterested in clarifying, hypocrisy and managing not to remember or perhaps read things I have explained several times. Boring! Enjoy your remaining interlocutors. You deserve their lack of interest and lack of respect.

Phssssssssst!

We've had a testy interaction here, but if you actually read the thread, I think you'll see I'm one of the few people in the forum actually interested in the topic and actively engaging with the ideas.

I think you do just fine. Nothing really •testy• either. I never get upset with anyone in any serious sense. My only focus is my own learning, realization and I suppose progress.

Now, whack down that annoying sodomite Flash, would you? You’ll earn 5 merit points — and they are redeemable for a limited time at your (European equivalent?) of Walmart.

[Atla]

I think we have to go back to the very root of the founding of our civilization: it really does have to do with a realness of relationship with that which made us — i.e. our creator. It all depends on how serious one takes that — and life itself really.

It's the 21st century, what about the countless people who think that taking life seriously includes not having a relationship with a non-existent creator?