What is tolerance?

[Sculptor]

Yes Tolerance was the watch word for Europe to escape and move on from the conflicts of the so-called Reflormation and Counter Reformation which left millions dead from religious bigotry.
However for some people Toerance was not acceptible and many found the Americas (most North as the South was Catholic land) a place wherein they could persue their religious bigotry.
The Pilgrim Fathers and other religious cults sucn as fakers, quakers, and shakers, unitarians, baptists and so on aninfinitem feld Europe to continue their bigotry.
Soon after the war of Independace the American government had to respond to religious violence by adding to the constitution the separation of church and state and to bar religion from government office.

As usual, Sculptor's anti-American screed is overblown. He mentions the millions killed in Europe: what was the figure in the U.S.? Thousands, maybe?

Pre-Revolution America was religiously diverse. ..

I have the advantage of avoiding the indoctrination of American schooling. Rather then have all the childish myths of the American state thrust upon me, I heave learned my History as a Master's student in a Universith setting.

For example most Americans beleive that the Boston Tea Party was because AMericans objected paying tax for their tea,
So ingraned is this myth that it even entered the words of a song..

The king has said he's going to put a tax on tea
And that's the reason y'all Americans drink coffee

Nothing could be further from the trust. The objection was not from the people.
It was the elites objecting to the sale of TAX FREE TEA, by boats from England.
THe people were happy to get their tea tax free.
But the "American" (obvious there was no such country at that time), wanted to tax the common people.
SO there was engineered an attack on the boats by cowards dressed as Indians, or they paid Indians to attack the boats.

The rest is just SPIN for gullible Americans..

If all this continues to upset you READ A FUCKING BOOK.

Here's a couple of suggestions..

The American Future: A History From The Founding Fathers To Barack Obama, (2009, ISBN 0-06-053923-2), Simon Schama



A People's History of the United States:(1995) ISBN 978-1-56584-171-0., Howard Zynn

https://archive.org/details/peopleshist ... 9/mode/2up

[Gary Childress]

however, there is still the need for fairness and equality in law and schools, so as to prevent unfair discrimination.

Schools are seriously overrated. Schools merely churn out good employees, if even; who wage slave for company owners who often did not go particularly much to school. The more you are intelligent and entrepreneurial, the more you benefit from -- not -- going to school.

Well, as I say the Abrahamic religions drive me crazy sometimes.

I use the Islamic distributed database of jurisprudential rulings to figure out what is halal/right or haraam/wrong. Other people use other databases. That is clearly their God-given right. The only thing I tend to point out, again and again, is that they often do not even have a database. That means that they are generally not consistent in what they believe is right or wrong. Especially atheists turn out to be one grand exercise in total confusion.

That is about "other people". They can do whatever they want. When the government, on the other hand, enforces whatever they want, it becomes a real problem, because governments somehow erroneously believe that they have the right to haphazardly force people. Ok, but in that case, we have the right to side with, and assist, their geopolitical enemies. Governments must learn that there is no such thing as a free lunch. If you want to force other people, then you must prove that you are willing to risk your life and die for what you believe in.

Are you taxed by the US government? If you live in SE Asia, then aren't your taxes from your own government? I'm not understanding your hatred of the US. Are you a Muslim male and against empowerment of females? Is that why you're against "feminist governments"?

[commonsense]

I agree with Harbal’s point that one cannot assess a book for its age appropriateness without reading it, but I think it is only necessary to read from the beginning until an age inappropriate passage is found.

Complicating the matter is the question of who determines what is inappropriate. A large number of instances are easy to define, but where is the line to be drawn?

Further difficulty is encountered in determining the average maturity of any given age of children. Some 6 yo’s are more mature than some 7 yo’s. And should the average level of maturity be protected or the lowest, depriving more children than protecting?

[Alexiev]

I have the advantage of avoiding the indoctrination of American schooling. Rather then have all the childish myths of the American state thrust upon me, I heave learned my History as a Master's student in a Universith setting.

For example most Americans beleive that the Boston Tea Party was because AMericans objected paying tax for their tea,
So ingraned is this myth that it even entered the words of a song..

The king has said he's going to put a tax on tea
And that's the reason y'all Americans drink coffee

Nothing could be further from the trust. The objection was not from the people.
It was the elites objecting to the sale of TAX FREE TEA, by boats from England.
THe people were happy to get their tea tax free.
But the "American" (obvious there was no such country at that time), wanted to tax the common people.
SO there was engineered an attack on the boats by cowards dressed as Indians, or they paid Indians to attack the boats.

The rest is just SPIN for gullible Americans..

If all this continues to upset you READ A FUCKING BOOK.

Here's a couple of suggestions..

The American Future: A History From The Founding Fathers To Barack Obama, (2009, ISBN 0-06-053923-2), Simon Schama



A People's History of the United States:(1995) ISBN 978-1-56584-171-0., Howard Zynn

https://archive.org/details/peopleshist ... 9/mode/2up

Nothing you write "upsets me". I sometimes set the record straight, though. Your anti-American bigotry has led you to ignore the truth about the Boston Tea Party, quote mine to demonstrate Lincoln's racism, and prove nothing other than your own ignorance.

Some historians enjoy attempting to debunk what they see as hagiographies or legendary histories. Sculptor appears to read only those histories which debunk American legends. The mainstream histories, however, agree that the Boston Tea Party was a protest againt tax. Here's the Encyclopedia Britannica (from Britain) report:

https://www.britannica.com/event/Boston-Tea-Party

Here's what Wikipedia has to say about Zinn's "People's History".

A People's History of the United States has been criticized by various pundits and fellow historians. Critics, including professor Chris Beneke and Randall J. Stephens,[5] assert blatant omissions of important historical episodes, uncritical reliance on biased sources, and failure to examine opposing views

Sculptor, of course, accepts uncritically any views which bash the U,S. (in particular) or agree with his prejudices (in general).

I would read a FUCKING BOOK, but they've been banned in Florida.

[godelian]

Are you taxed by the US government? If you live in SE Asia, then aren't your taxes from your own government?

I am not a US citizen. If I were, however, I would be taxed by the US government wherever I live subject to a foreign tax exemption. The US is the only country in the world that taxes its citizens wherever they live. Fortunately, I don't have that horrible problem.

Concerning the place where I live, personal income tax, like in most countries outside the West, is "not implemented". They do not send out tax returns and they do not try to collect it, if only, because the post office does not work, and they do not have a population address database to begin with. The real reason is that half the population are subsistence farmers or work in the informal urban economy. So, it wouldn't be possible to collect personal income tax anyway.

I'm not understanding your hatred of the US.

Hatred is probably a strong word. I left the EU because I did not like to live there. I would obviously not like to live in the US, because it has all the same problems as the EU, only worse. I simply do not want the US+EU+UK+AUS to export and impose their bullshit laws -- which are exactly the reason why I left -- to the places where I have left to. In SE Asia, they do not have these bullshit laws. Life is super here. Therefore, don't bring the bullshit here.

Are you a Muslim male

Yes, I converted from Christianity to Islam. It is undoubtedly also another anti-western statement of mine.

and against empowerment of females?

As far as I am concerned, let anybody do what they want. Seriously, I don't give a flying fart.

Is that why you're against "feminist governments"?

I do not want to give half my assets, alimony or child support -- which is actually the same as alimony -- to a woman that is no longer my wife or my common-law girlfriend. That is mostly what it is about.

I do not have to do that here in SE Asia. That is why I like it here. I want to keep things the way they are now. I do not want the West to come over with their bullshit "human rights" and nonsensical feminist laws to impose all of that crap over here. I can see them trying. That is why I have to react. Hostility is necessary, because otherwise they are going to ruin the place here. I see it as my task to foment hostility towards the West, simply because my own quality of life depends on it.

[Alexiev]

Because there can be no reasons provided to support them. They're matters of taste, not of reason.

Nobody thus needs to agree. And no line of reasoning or argument can be produced by the subjectivist complainer to induce another person to believe that he/she is obligated to share that personal complaint of opinion. If they do, they do; if they don't, they don't. But nobody is a better or worse person if they don't, and nothing objective can be pulled into the conversation to tip the balance to either side.

And there, the matter ends. The subjectivist has no more to offer. That's why subjectivism is mere moral-nihilism-for-cowards. They're cowards because they don't have the courage to go all the way with moral nihilism, but their lack of any objective basis means they really can't justify any claim to morality, and their supposed "morality" is no more than the preening valorization of their own personal tastes...and nobody should be impressed by that.

Of course there are reasons to support subjective opinions. Why wouldn't there be? I can give any number of reasons why physical pain (a subjective feeling) is worth avoiding. I can support my subjective opinion that there is no such thing as "objective morality". After all, who can know the MInd of God (to quote the Bible, a book with which you seem curiously unfamiliar). So morality for the Christian (as for the atheist) is a matter of opinion and interpretation.

To soothe your conservative prejudices, I'll even say that one argument in favor of subjective morals is an appeal to cultural traditions. Such culturally constituted ethics (including Christian mores) have stood the test of time, which suggests they may conduce a workable society. However, like Kant, I believe that we can generalize from specific rules to general ethics (like do unto others) and recognize that such an ethic is incompatible with discriminating against gay, transexual, or otherwise divergent people, whatever the norms of our troubled past. I can also suggest that we avoid banning books, based on the general principle that freedom of information conduces a superior education (and, subjectively, liberal education is a good thing). Liberal, as I'm using it, means "generous, open-minded, and (based on the Latin root) free". Clearly banning books is neither open-minded nor accepting of freedom.

[Harbal]

I agree with Harbal’s point that one cannot assess a book for its age appropriateness without reading it, but I think it is only necessary to read from the beginning until an age inappropriate passage is found.

It isn't only a question of age appropriateness, although I do acknowledge that we need to check that the inappropriateness is not of such a degree as to warrant any hysterical running about like a headless chicken. There was a specific allegation made that schoolchildren were being read to from "perverted" books, presumably with the blessing of the education authorities. I find that hard to believe, but it would be alarming if true, and I would like to find out for myself if it actually is true. The only reliable way of doing that is for me to read what is in these books for myself.

[Alexiev]

I do not have to do that here in SE Asia. That is why I like it here. I want to keep things the way they are now. I do not want the West to come over with their bullshit "human rights" and nonsensical feminist laws to impose all of that crap over here. I can see them trying. That is why I have to react. Hostility is necessary, because otherwise they are going to ruin the place here. I see it as my task to foment hostility towards the West, simply because my own quality of life depends on it.

Your screeds seem obsessed with "(your) own quality of life". In the interest of fair play, why should anyone else be concerned about your quality of life, given your own ethic? As far as I can tell, you object even to supporting your own children. This does not appear to be a principle with which most East Asians (or Westerners) would agree.

The quality of life for most Americans and Europeans is, I'll bet, far superior to that of most citizens of whatever country in which you live. But, of course, you don't care about anyone but yourself. There's a word for that. It begins with an "A".

[commonsense]

I agree with Harbal’s point that one cannot assess a book for its age appropriateness without reading it, but I think it is only necessary to read from the beginning until an age inappropriate passage is found.

It isn't only a question of age appropriateness, although I do acknowledge that we need to check that the inappropriateness is not of such a degree as to warrant any hysterical running about like a headless chicken. There was a specific allegation made that schoolchildren were being read to from "perverted" books, presumably with the blessing of the education authorities. I find that hard to believe, but it would be alarming if true, and I would like to find out for myself if it actually is true. The only reliable way of doing that is for me to read what is in these books for myself.

https://www.orlandosentinel.com/2023/12 ... lassrooms/

[Gary Childress]

I agree with Harbal’s point that one cannot assess a book for its age appropriateness without reading it, but I think it is only necessary to read from the beginning until an age inappropriate passage is found.

It isn't only a question of age appropriateness, although I do acknowledge that we need to check that the inappropriateness is not of such a degree as to warrant any hysterical running about like a headless chicken. There was a specific allegation made that schoolchildren were being read to from "perverted" books, presumably with the blessing of the education authorities. I find that hard to believe, but it would be alarming if true, and I would like to find out for myself if it actually is true. The only reliable way of doing that is for me to read what is in these books for myself.

https://www.orlandosentinel.com/2023/12 ... lassrooms/

The books on the list range from well-known classics to popular contemporary novels. The newspaper noted that the list contains books found in teachers’ classrooms, not in school libraries. The newspaper also noted that not all of the books were necessarily part of required instruction, but were available to students if they wanted to read them.

On the list were classics including John Steinbeck’s “East of Eden,” John Milton’s “Paradise Lost,” Toni Morrison’s “Beloved” and Betty Smith’s “A Tree Grows in Brooklyn.”

Others were part of high school curricula, the newspaper reported, citing teachers. Those included “The Color Purple,” “Catch-22” and “Brave New World.”

https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watc ... y-in-2023/

[godelian]

As far as I can tell, you object even to supporting your own children.

Let's take a recent example case:

A judge on Sept. 8 ordered Kevin Costner to pay about $63,000 per month for their three children, People reported. Baumgartner had sought about $175,000 per month.

What are these $63,000 per month? Is she going to spend that on the children? How?

So, is it child support or, in fact, alimony?

If the marriage rate in the West is at its lowest ever, and predicted to go increasingly lower in the future, it is because of two reasons: (1) divorce-rape laws (2) hoeflation.

Concerning the hoeflation, apparently, Kevin Costner's ex-wife was also part of that:

Kevin Costner's former tenant Daniel Starr vehemently denied rumors that he had an affair with the Yellowstone actor's estranged wife, Christine Baumgartner, who filed for divorce from the 68-year-old on Monday, May 1, after 18 years of marriage. The real estate developer insisted he "absolutely" did not "hook up" with the 49-year-old while Costner was away focusing on his career.

So, Kevin Costner is supposed to pay $63,000 per month to that kind of person?

This does not appear to be a principle with which most East Asians (or Westerners) would agree.

There are certainly divorces over here in SE Asia. However, SE Asians do not pay alimony or child support. I have never heard of a case like that. Concerning western men, they disagree with the existing divorce-rape system, and very much so in principle. They even vote with their feet by not showing up for marriage.

The quality of life for most Americans and Europeans is, I'll bet, far superior to that of most citizens of whatever country in which you live.

Have you ever been here? Have you ever lived here? If not, how do you even know?

But, of course, you don't care about anyone but yourself. There's a word for that. It begins with an "A".

Since your concern for SE Asian people is so real, what exactly have you done for them lately?

[Gary Childress]

https://www.flgov.com/2024/02/15/govern ... activists/

Governor Ron DeSantis Debunks Book Ban Hoax, Calls on Florida Legislature to Amend the Law to Prevent Abuse from Activists

TALLAHASSEE, Fla. — Today, Governor Ron DeSantis continued to debunk the false narrative that the state of Florida bans books. Florida does not ban books, instead, the state has empowered parents to object to obscene material in the classroom. Still, some have abused this process to object to items including books about Johnny Appleseed, The Giver and even the Bible. Governor DeSantis is calling on the Legislature to finetune this process to prevent people from taking advantage of Florida law that is designed solely to remove inappropriate material from the classroom.

Myth #1

Myth 1: The Florida Department of Education bans books.

Truth 1: The Department does not ban books. Each school district is responsible for ensuring all the materials in their schools adhere to state education standards.



Myth #2

Myth 2: Every book written is age-appropriate and has literary value for children.

Truth 2: This is a lie. Books with pornographic and sexually explicit material do not belong in school libraries accessible to children.



Myth #3

Myth 3: Dictionaries and thesauruses have been removed from classrooms.

Truth 3: This is ridiculous. No district in Florida has removed any dictionaries or thesauruses.

[Harbal]

https://www.orlandosentinel.com/2023/12 ... lassrooms/

This content is not available in my region, it seems.

[Sculptor]

I agree with Harbal’s point that one cannot assess a book for its age appropriateness without reading it, but I think it is only necessary to read from the beginning until an age inappropriate passage is found.

Complicating the matter is the question of who determines what is inappropriate. A large number of instances are easy to define, but where is the line to be drawn?

Further difficulty is encountered in determining the average maturity of any given age of children. Some 6 yo’s are more mature than some 7 yo’s. And should the average level of maturity be protected or the lowest, depriving more children than protecting?

Age Appropriteness is not the issue.
The representative read out the whole book.
There was nothing inapproprite.
Stop gaslighting.

[Sculptor]

https://www.orlandosentinel.com/2023/12 ... lassrooms/

This content is not available in my region, it seems.

me too