Consciousness and the Brain in the Vat

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

Moderators: AMod, iMod

Post Reply
risaperis
Posts: 6
Joined: Thu Mar 21, 2024 5:02 pm

Consciousness and the Brain in the Vat

Post by risaperis »

Consciousness remains confounding

The "brain in a vat" is a philosophical thought experiment often used to explore questions about the nature of reality, perception, and knowledge. The scenario posits that an individual's brain is removed from their body and placed in a vat of nutrient-rich liquid, where it is kept alive and connected to a supercomputer. This computer generates electrical impulses that simulate the experiences of the outside world, effectively creating a virtual reality for the brain.

Now imagine a brain in the vat where you do not simulate experiences of the outside world. Just imagine a brain in a vat with no external stimuli. Does the brain have consciousness? It seems that consciousness arises from both external stimuli and perception of that stimuli. Is there an internal reality that all brains have? How is our reality truly constructed?
seeds
Posts: 2175
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2016 9:31 pm

Re: Consciousness and the Brain in the Vat

Post by seeds »

risaperis wrote: Sat Mar 23, 2024 6:44 pm Consciousness remains confounding

The "brain in a vat" is a philosophical thought experiment often used to explore questions about the nature of reality, perception, and knowledge....

...Just imagine a brain in a vat with no external stimuli.
It seems obvious (to me, anyway) that whenever you sleep at night, just like the vat scenario, your brain resides in a nutrient-rich environment that is cut off from any outside stimuli,...

...yet "something" within your brain perceives vast, oftentimes, bizarre vistas of reality (in the form of dreams) that seem almost as real as the reality that one perceives while awake.

So, as far as the thought experiment goes, other than shape, what's the difference between what is normally thought of as a "vat" and that of a sleeping human body?
risaperis wrote: Sat Mar 23, 2024 6:44 pm Does the brain have consciousness?
No, the brain (an organized collection of quantum particles) does not have consciousness.

It's the self-aware "I Am-ness" that sits at the throne of the mind that has consciousness.

Brains are simply the means by which an "I Am-ness/soul" (with its accompanying mind) is awakened into existence.
risaperis wrote: Sat Mar 23, 2024 6:44 pm It seems that consciousness arises from both external stimuli and perception of that stimuli.
Again, while asleep, there is no "external" stimuli, yet the perception of dream phenomena by "something" conscious takes place.
risaperis wrote: Sat Mar 23, 2024 6:44 pm Is there an internal reality that all brains have?
Other than biological processes, brains don't have internal realities. No, minds have internal realities.

Indeed, as you stand on the earth and look out into the universe, you are witnessing (from a "fetal-like" perspective) the degree to which the infinitely malleable fabric of mind can be willfully organized by the mind's owner.

Again, brains are simply the means by which a new soul (with its accompanying mind) can be awakened into existence.
risaperis wrote: Sat Mar 23, 2024 6:44 pm How is our reality truly constructed?
Our own inward reality is constructed from the living (holographic-like) fabric of our own autonomous minds.

On the other hand, the outer reality of the universe (including our bodies and brains) is constructed from the living fabric of yet another autonomous mind (a mind just like ours) whose conscious "agent/I Am-ness" has matured to the point of now representing the "adult" version of what we (its literal "offspring") are destined to become like, sometime in the infinite depths of eternity.

It's almost too simple.
_______
Age
Posts: 20316
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Consciousness and the Brain in the Vat

Post by Age »

risaperis wrote: Sat Mar 23, 2024 6:44 pm Consciousness remains confounding
Only to those of you who have not, yet, uncovered, or learned, and understood what 'consciousness' is, exactly, yet.
risaperis wrote: Sat Mar 23, 2024 6:44 pm The "brain in a vat" is a philosophical thought experiment often used to explore questions about the nature of reality, perception, and knowledge. The scenario posits that an individual's brain is removed from their body and placed in a vat of nutrient-rich liquid, where it is kept alive and connected to a supercomputer. This computer generates electrical impulses that simulate the experiences of the outside world, effectively creating a virtual reality for the brain.

Now imagine a brain in the vat where you do not simulate experiences of the outside world. Just imagine a brain in a vat with no external stimuli. Does the brain have consciousness? It seems that consciousness arises from both external stimuli and perception of that stimuli.
'Consciousness', or 'conscious', when simplified down to a dictionary's definitions are just 'awareness', or 'aware', respectively.

All living things are 'aware', in their own right. For example, a tree, dog, or human being is 'aware' of what is being 'sent in through, via, or by' the senses or nerve endings of 'the body'. For example, a tree is, or could be, 'aware' of the water going through the roots and/or the sun's rays on the leaves, branches, or trunk, and so, in its own right' 'grows' towards what is needed for its existence. An older human being more so, and a dog, to a lesser extent is 'aware' of what is being 'sent through, via, or by' the senses or nerve endings of 'the body'. And, the 'awareness' is stronger or 'made more aware' of some things to other things and to all different animals, and even to each individual of each and every species of animal.

So, the 'awareness/consciousness' of all is different, for 'remembering' of 'past awareness' there needs to be some thing that can 'capture', or 'grasp', and 'store' the 'information' which had previously been 'made aware of' by the senses/nerve endings of 'the body'. This capturing and storing capacity, which words, exactly, like a computer does is just 'the brain', itself.

The 'computer', human brain, is more efficient at this 'storing', and 'recalling/memory', and thus is why, generally, the older human being is better able to recall and share previously consciously grasped bodily experiences. And, because future human beings are always able to be 'fed', again through the senses, previously obtained, grasped, and stored 'information', or 'knowledge', why human beings, collectively, continually become more 'conscious', or more aware and thus continually more 'self-aware' creatures.

Leading, or evolving, up to when human beings know, for sure, what 'Consciousness', Itself was/is, and became/become Truly consciously aware of 'Who "I' am', and thus Truly 'Self-aware' beings.

It is 'life', itself, that is 'conscious', and thus has 'consciousness', itself. But, 'senses' had to evolve for 'consciousness', to come about, and then 'the brain' had to evolve for what was and is needed for the ability to capture and store what is obtained or experienced through the senses. Once all of what is happening and occurring here was discovered, and/or is learned, and understood, then more and more and more information/knowledge gradually more and more 'consciously' understood.

And when 'One' has reached full understanding and knowing here, regarding these things, 'Consciousness' is reached, and achieved, which is more or less just being 'Consciously Aware' of, and 'Consciously Knowing', who and what 'I' am, exactly, what the Universe is made up of, exactly, how 'I' and the Universe work, exactly.

But, all of this becomes far clearer and much better understood as 'we' move along and proceed here.
risaperis wrote: Sat Mar 23, 2024 6:44 pm Is there an internal reality that all brains have? How is our reality truly constructed?
There is only One Reality, only. So, any talk about 'internal reality, and, external reality', as though they are different things is another example of 'imagination' only.

The so-called 'our reality' is created by pre-existing thoughts, which includes views, assumptions, opinions, perceptions, preconceptions, beliefs, and any other thing else like 'information' and 'knowledge' which are, essentially, just 'thought', itself, here.

Now, that is how 'you', human beings, make up or create the so-called 'your reality'. However, what is Truly Real, or just 'Reality', Itself, is different, and how to find, uncover, discover, learn, comprehend, grasp, understand, and know 'Reality', Itself, is, contrary to popular belief in the days when this is being written, really is a very, very simple, quick, and easy thing to do.

And, how one will know, for sure and irrefutably, that they have reached and/or obtained the actual Truth of or about 'Reality', Itself, is also a Truly simple, easy, and quick process to learn, and understand.
Age
Posts: 20316
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Consciousness and the Brain in the Vat

Post by Age »

seeds wrote: Sat Mar 23, 2024 11:24 pm
risaperis wrote: Sat Mar 23, 2024 6:44 pm Consciousness remains confounding

The "brain in a vat" is a philosophical thought experiment often used to explore questions about the nature of reality, perception, and knowledge....

...Just imagine a brain in a vat with no external stimuli.
It seems obvious (to me, anyway) that whenever you sleep at night, just like the vat scenario, your brain resides in a nutrient-rich environment that is cut off from any outside stimuli,...
But, the brain is not 'cut off' from the stimuli.

The brain for most part is just not aware/not conscious of what stimuli it is that is being fed into it.
seeds wrote: Sat Mar 23, 2024 11:24 pm ...yet "something" within your brain perceives vast, oftentimes, bizarre vistas of reality (in the form of dreams) that seem almost as real as the reality that one perceives while awake.
Is it the brain 'perceiving' these things, or is it just the previously captured and stored stimuli, which is already held within the brain, that is making (up) 'the dreams', which can be a 'perceived', at the time, 'reality'?
seeds wrote: Sat Mar 23, 2024 11:24 pm So, as far as the thought experiment goes, other than shape, what's the difference between what is normally thought of as a "vat" and that of a sleeping human body?
I am not yet aware of 'the brain in the vat experiment', but I would not be at all surprised if all it really shows and/or proves is that just what is 'thought', by an 'actual thing', (a brain, and its actual surroundings, for this experiment), could be completely imaginary, but the 'actual thing' with 'the thoughts' has to exist.
risaperis wrote: Sat Mar 23, 2024 6:44 pm Does the brain have consciousness?
No, the brain (an organized collection of quantum particles) does not have consciousness.[/quote]

Well if this is true, then absolutely nothing in the physical Universe has 'consciousness', considering the fact that all of these things are a so-called 'organized collection of quantum particles'.
seeds wrote: Sat Mar 23, 2024 11:24 pm It's the self-aware "I Am-ness" that sits at the throne of the mind that has consciousness.
So, to "seeds" anyway, there is a so-called 'I am-ness', a 'mind', and 'consciousness'.

And, well again to "seeds" anyway, the 'I am-ness' 'sits at the throne', like 'God', 'I' suppose, or is 'at the lead', as some might say, of some 'mind', which both the 'I am-ness' and 'the mind' can, obviously, not be physical at all, and which it is 'the mind' that, somehow, has 'consciousness', itself, or that the, so-called, 'I am-ness' 'has consciousness'.

Now, 'I' wonder if "seeds" will explain to 'us' here who and what the 'I am-ness' is, exactly, what the 'mind' is, exactly, and what 'consciousness' is, exactly?

If "seeds" does not, then 'I' wonder if "seeds" expects any of 'the readers' here to have absolutely any clue or idea about what 'it' is, exactly, that "seeds" is talking about or referring to here, now?
seeds wrote: Sat Mar 23, 2024 11:24 pm Brains are simply the means by which an "I Am-ness/soul" (with its accompanying mind) is awakened into existence.
Although part of this may well be irrefutably True, with the other part being absolutely False, then this explains and shows why 'you' are still not yet HERE "seeds".

Would you like to now explain how and why you think or believe that there are 'many minds'?
seeds wrote: Sat Mar 23, 2024 11:24 pm
risaperis wrote: Sat Mar 23, 2024 6:44 pm It seems that consciousness arises from both external stimuli and perception of that stimuli.
Again, while asleep, there is no "external" stimuli, yet the perception of dream phenomena by "something" conscious takes place.
Again, there are always external stimuli going to the brain, that the brain might not 'be awake', or 'not aware/not conscious', of what is being 'fed' to it, is another matter. The senses of the body are always accepting or 'being fed' external to the body stimuli.
risaperis wrote: Sat Mar 23, 2024 6:44 pm Is there an internal reality that all brains have?
Other than biological processes, brains don't have internal realities. No, minds have internal realities.[/quote]

And, once again, what are 'minds', exactly?

Obviously, anyone can cut open a human head and find and see 'a brain', but if you were to cut open a human body "seeds" tell 'us' where 'we' would find and see 'a mind'. Inform 'us' of what the 'mind' is, exactly, how does 'it' work, exactly, and what does 'it' do, exactly?

Once 'you' start informing 'us' of things like this, then 'we' will know that 'you' actually know what 'you' keep talking about here.

Until then you are just stating and claiming things of which you have no actual proof for, let alone have any actual evidence for.
seeds wrote: Sat Mar 23, 2024 11:24 pm Indeed, as you stand on the earth and look out into the universe, you are witnessing (from a "fetal-like" perspective) the degree to which the infinitely malleable fabric of mind can be willfully organized by the mind's owner.
So, you claim that 'you' 'have a mind'. Therefore, when 'we' look out into the Universe, Itself, 'we' are, supposedly, witnessing what "seeds" has willfully organized. Which, considering that "seeds" only came into Existence at a relatively 'nothing amount of time' ago, this claim is obviously False considering that the Universe is a little bit older than "seeds", itself.

Now, what 'you' are trying to say, and mean, may well be irrefutably True and Right, but 'you' are still some way from 'that', yet.

However, if you just started 'letting go' of 'that', which you have absolutely no proof of nor for, then you can, and will, learn and see how what 'it' is that 'you', essentially, already have experienced, and thus do know, is absolutely True, Right, Accurate, and Correct.
seeds wrote: Sat Mar 23, 2024 11:24 pm Again, brains are simply the means by which a new soul (with its accompanying mind) can be awakened into existence.
But, you, souls, people, human beings, animals, plants, nor anything else does not have a so-called 'accompanying mind'. Human beings, however, have thoughts. Some thoughts are True and Right, and some are certainly not.

Now, how to distinguish between the two, by the way, is a, really, very simple and easy thing to do.
seeds wrote: Sat Mar 23, 2024 11:24 pm
risaperis wrote: Sat Mar 23, 2024 6:44 pm How is our reality truly constructed?
Our own inward reality is constructed from the living (holographic-like) fabric of our own autonomous minds.
'now', "seed's" claims that 'minds' are 'autonomous'. Although there is a, supposed, 'I am-ness', that 'sits at the throne of', and that, supposedly, 'has a mind'.
seeds wrote: Sat Mar 23, 2024 11:24 pm On the other hand, the outer reality of the universe (including our bodies and brains) is constructed from the living fabric of yet another autonomous mind (a mind just like ours) whose conscious "agent/I Am-ness" has matured to the point of now representing the "adult" version of what we (its literal "offspring") are destined to become like, sometime in the infinite depths of eternity.

It's almost too simple.
_______
Yet, you fail time after time to explain how what you claim is true could even be true.

And, the reason why you fail is because some of what you believe is true is, just simply, not true at all.

All of these posters here like "seeds", "dontaskme", "attofishpi", "lacewing", and the others who have 'had experiences', and have 'come-to-know' some things, which are irrefutably True and Right, but which other posters here will mock and ridicule, do not yet realize, fully, that they are all talking about and referring to the 'exact same Thing'.

If only they could just 'let go' of 'those other things' that they believe or presume are true, but which are certainly not, and which the belief and presumption of is what is holding them back from learning, understanding, seeing, and knowing how and why what they 'centrally' believe is true is absolutely and irrefutably the whole and actual Truth here.

Instead of these posters 'working together', which will prove, once and for all, what they are each individually saying and claiming, they 'work against' each other, which is only delaying the inevitable exposing and revealing of the actual irrefutable Truth.

I have offered numerous times already to help out here in order to get to the actual Truth, but these posters want to do it alone. It is is like they want to take or get 'personal credit' or 'personal acknowledgment' for something here.

They seem to appear to not yet realize that absolutely every thing that they have to come to discover, learn, understand, and know is because of the human beings that came before them.

Once the actual Truth is revealed, and thus known, there is absolutely not one human being who could take credit for this.

Now, if absolutely anyone would like to 'work together' in uncovering, exposing, and revealing the absolute and irrefutable Truths of Life, and living, then let 'us' do this NOW.
User avatar
Trajk Logik
Posts: 390
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2016 12:35 pm

Re: Consciousness and the Brain in the Vat

Post by Trajk Logik »

risaperis wrote: Sat Mar 23, 2024 6:44 pm Consciousness remains confounding

The "brain in a vat" is a philosophical thought experiment often used to explore questions about the nature of reality, perception, and knowledge. The scenario posits that an individual's brain is removed from their body and placed in a vat of nutrient-rich liquid, where it is kept alive and connected to a supercomputer. This computer generates electrical impulses that simulate the experiences of the outside world, effectively creating a virtual reality for the brain.

Now imagine a brain in the vat where you do not simulate experiences of the outside world. Just imagine a brain in a vat with no external stimuli. Does the brain have consciousness? It seems that consciousness arises from both external stimuli and perception of that stimuli. Is there an internal reality that all brains have? How is our reality truly constructed?
Reality isn't constructed. It just is. Our perceptions of reality are constructed. Don't conflate the map with the territory (unless you're a solipsist).

As for your question, it depends on when the brain was put in a vat - after is has been in a body that has interacted with and acquired experiences of the world, just after birth, or from the moment of conception?

It seems to me that if the brain has accumulated memories of the world then it would use this information to construct it's own "reality". Sensory deprivation is known to cause hallucinations. So it seems to me that the brain can generate it's own "reality" when it doesn't have access to the real one. I wonder if dreams are actually the hallucinations that are brought on by being asleep and deprived of sensory stimuli.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensory_deprivation

If the brain was put in a vat at birth then the mind will probably still hallucinate the comforting feeling of being back in the womb.

If the nervous system was somehow able to be developed from an embryo inside the vat, then I don't know if there would be any kind of hallucinations, or mind, as there would be no way for it to accumulate any memories and it seems to me that dreams and hallucinations are based on prior experiences. If you've never seen a car can you hallucinate or dream of one?

So it seems to me that to have a mind you have to have had some kind of sensory experience and a memory to store them.

seeds wrote: Sat Mar 23, 2024 11:24 pm It seems obvious (to me, anyway) that whenever you sleep at night, just like the vat scenario, your brain resides in a nutrient-rich environment that is cut off from any outside stimuli,...
Then how is it that you can be woken up by an alarm clock?
seeds
Posts: 2175
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2016 9:31 pm

Re: Consciousness and the Brain in the Vat

Post by seeds »

Trajk Logik wrote: Mon Apr 01, 2024 2:59 pm
seeds wrote: Sat Mar 23, 2024 11:24 pm It seems obvious (to me, anyway) that whenever you sleep at night, just like the vat scenario, your brain resides in a nutrient-rich environment that is cut off from any outside stimuli,...
Then how is it that you can be woken up by an alarm clock?
I didn't mean to imply that you were cut-off to the point of being completely unreachable. Indeed, only in death will that be the case.

No, it was just meant to point out that the multi-sensory phenomena you experience while dreaming are not being caused by outside stimuli. Thus, your body/cranium (while asleep), relative to your brain, is not that much different from the "vat" in the thought experiment.

Indeed, if you think about it, an old-fashioned slap on the butt (or skin massage) when you were first born, was sort of an "alarm clock" that awakened you into the non-ending stimuli taking place in this outer world.
_______
User avatar
Trajk Logik
Posts: 390
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2016 12:35 pm

Re: Consciousness and the Brain in the Vat

Post by Trajk Logik »

seeds wrote: Mon Apr 01, 2024 7:02 pm
Trajk Logik wrote: Mon Apr 01, 2024 2:59 pm
seeds wrote: Sat Mar 23, 2024 11:24 pm It seems obvious (to me, anyway) that whenever you sleep at night, just like the vat scenario, your brain resides in a nutrient-rich environment that is cut off from any outside stimuli,...
Then how is it that you can be woken up by an alarm clock?
I didn't mean to imply that you were cut-off to the point of being completely unreachable. Indeed, only in death will that be the case.

No, it was just meant to point out that the multi-sensory phenomena you experience while dreaming are not being caused by outside stimuli. Thus, your body/cranium (while asleep), relative to your brain, is not that much different from the "vat" in the thought experiment.

Indeed, if you think about it, an old-fashioned slap on the butt (or skin massage) when you were first born, was sort of an "alarm clock" that awakened you into the non-ending stimuli taking place in this outer world.
_______
I disagree. I had a dream where I was escaping from my captors and the escape alarm in my dream was actually my alarm clock. So my brain represented external stimuli as a component of my dream. I've also dreamt that someone was calling my name only to find it was someone trying to wake me up.

Fetuses are already awake in the womb. This is why, after being born, they calm down when swaddled because it reminds them of being in the womb. The experience of being swaddled is similar to being in the womb. This is also why they recognize their mother's voice outside the womb. Consciousness begins at least when the brain and nervous system are fully formed around the end of the 2nd trimester.
seeds
Posts: 2175
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2016 9:31 pm

Re: Consciousness and the Brain in the Vat

Post by seeds »

Trajk Logik wrote: Mon Apr 01, 2024 10:34 pm
seeds wrote: Mon Apr 01, 2024 7:02 pm
Trajk Logik wrote: Mon Apr 01, 2024 2:59 pm
Then how is it that you can be woken up by an alarm clock?
I didn't mean to imply that you were cut-off to the point of being completely unreachable. Indeed, only in death will that be the case.

No, it was just meant to point out that the multi-sensory phenomena you experience while dreaming are not being caused by outside stimuli. Thus, your body/cranium (while asleep), relative to your brain, is not that much different from the "vat" in the thought experiment.

Indeed, if you think about it, an old-fashioned slap on the butt (or skin massage) when you were first born, was sort of an "alarm clock" that awakened you into the non-ending stimuli taking place in this outer world.
_______
I disagree. I had a dream where I was escaping from my captors and the escape alarm in my dream was actually my alarm clock. So my brain represented external stimuli as a component of my dream.
Just because every once in a while, some loud outside stimulus has some effect on one of your dreams, does not change the fact that the majority of what you experience while dreaming is not induced by outside stimuli.
Trajk Logik wrote: Mon Apr 01, 2024 10:34 pm I've also dreamt that someone was calling my name only to find it was someone trying to wake me up.
Right, and that's because you are not completely unreachable while in the "cranial vat" state.
Trajk Logik wrote: Mon Apr 01, 2024 10:34 pm Fetuses are already awake in the womb. This is why, after being born, they calm down when swaddled because it reminds them of being in the womb. The experience of being swaddled is similar to being in the womb. This is also why they recognize their mother's voice outside the womb. Consciousness begins at least when the brain and nervous system are fully formed around the end of the 2nd trimester.
Well, they might be in sort of a "twilight" (semi-conscious) state of being, but they are certainly not "awake" in the way you are implying.

That's why they (we) need to be "coaxed-out" of that state by stimulating the body in some way so that our general consciousness and our five inner senses can flood the ubiquitous network of the body's nervous system in such a way as to not only allow our wills to take charge of the body's musculature in order to take that first breath,...

...but also is the moment when our five inner senses begin peering outward into the universe through the body's five corresponding "windows." For that's all the eyes, skin, ears, nose, and tongue are, they are just "windows," and not our actual senses.

I suggest that that greater awakening we experience at the moment of birth is the moment when the inner light of our minds "turns on," so to speak, and a new eternal soul is officially formed.

Indeed, I suggest that if that initial birth and greater awakening did not occur, then that potential soul would not have come into being,...

...hence the real tragedy of the abortion issue.
_______
User avatar
Trajk Logik
Posts: 390
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2016 12:35 pm

Re: Consciousness and the Brain in the Vat

Post by Trajk Logik »

seeds wrote: Tue Apr 02, 2024 12:55 am Just because every once in a while, some loud outside stimulus has some effect on one of your dreams, does not change the fact that the majority of what you experience while dreaming is not induced by outside stimuli.
I never said a majority of what we experience in the dream is triggered by external stimuli. I only meant to show that you were incorrect in saying:
seeds wrote: Sat Mar 23, 2024 11:24 pm It seems obvious (to me, anyway) that whenever you sleep at night, just like the vat scenario, your brain resides in a nutrient-rich environment that is cut off from any outside stimuli,...
Not only that, but isn't the vat external to the brain? So wouldn't the brain still be receiving external stimuli because the vat is external to it? What it would actually be similar to is being stuck in a highly sophisticated virtual reality suit and helmet where all stimuli come from the suit and helmet you are wearing, providing tactile, visual and auditory stimuli. We don't need to remove brains and put them in a vat. That's so 20th century. We have virtual reality now. Or what about being stuck in one of Star Trek's holodecks for the rest of your life? We can duplicate the same experience without removing the brain from the body. Instead we just feed the actual senses false information from the outside.

This calls into question the meaning of "external" vs. "internal". What are you - your mind? Is your brain external to you?

Another issue is that when I dream I don't have memories of my life while awake. I don't remember falling asleep for me to know that this is a dream, or even have any memory of what happened during the day. It's often as if I am living a different life in my dream. When wake up I remember what happened the day before and I remember going to bed the night before. As I mentioned in my response to the OP it depends on when our brain was placed in the vat and which memories we would still possess. Does the vat somehow suppress our memories before our brain was placed in a vat? Will we remember that we had our brain placed in a vat? If so, then we would know that what we are experiencing in the vat isn't real.
seeds wrote: Tue Apr 02, 2024 12:55 am
Trajk Logik wrote: Mon Apr 01, 2024 10:34 pm Fetuses are already awake in the womb. This is why, after being born, they calm down when swaddled because it reminds them of being in the womb. The experience of being swaddled is similar to being in the womb. This is also why they recognize their mother's voice outside the womb. Consciousness begins at least when the brain and nervous system are fully formed around the end of the 2nd trimester.
Well, they might be in sort of a "twilight" (semi-conscious) state of being, but they are certainly not "awake" in the way you are implying.

That's why they (we) need to be "coaxed-out" of that state by stimulating the body in some way so that our general consciousness and our five inner senses can flood the ubiquitous network of the body's nervous system in such a way as to not only allow our wills to take charge of the body's musculature in order to take that first breath,...

...but also is the moment when our five inner senses begin peering outward into the universe through the body's five corresponding "windows." For that's all the eyes, skin, ears, nose, and tongue are, they are just "windows," and not our actual senses.

I suggest that that greater awakening we experience at the moment of birth is the moment when the inner light of our minds "turns on," so to speak, and a new eternal soul is officially formed.

Indeed, I suggest that if that initial birth and greater awakening did not occur, then that potential soul would not have come into being,...

...hence the real tragedy of the abortion issue.
_______
How can you be "coaxed-out" if you didn't already have some kind of access to the world that is "coaxing" you out? It seems obvious to me that once your brain and sensory organs have fully developed you can sense the world, even if it's just the warm, dark and cramped environment of the womb. Think about how you would feel if you were warm and cozy in the womb and then forced into a cold, bright and open environment of the world? You'd freak out most likely as your world has just turned upside down, just like the baby does and is then calmed down when swaddled in a warm blanket and placed next to your mother that you can smell and hear.

The greater awakening you speak of is when a toddler begins to realize that the objects in their mind have object permanence in that they continue to exist even when not experienced. This is when we abandon our solipsistic view and adopt a realist view.
seeds
Posts: 2175
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2016 9:31 pm

Re: Consciousness and the Brain in the Vat

Post by seeds »

seeds wrote: Tue Apr 02, 2024 12:55 am
Trajk Logik wrote: Mon Apr 01, 2024 10:34 pm Fetuses are already awake in the womb. This is why, after being born, they calm down when swaddled because it reminds them of being in the womb. The experience of being swaddled is similar to being in the womb. This is also why they recognize their mother's voice outside the womb. Consciousness begins at least when the brain and nervous system are fully formed around the end of the 2nd trimester.
Well, they might be in sort of a "twilight" (semi-conscious) state of being, but they are certainly not "awake" in the way you are implying.

That's why they (we) need to be "coaxed-out" of that state by stimulating the body in some way so that our general consciousness and our five inner senses can flood the ubiquitous network of the body's nervous system in such a way as to not only allow our wills to take charge of the body's musculature in order to take that first breath,...

...but also is the moment when our five inner senses begin peering outward into the universe through the body's five corresponding "windows." For that's all the eyes, skin, ears, nose, and tongue are, they are just "windows," and not our actual senses.

I suggest that that greater awakening we experience at the moment of birth is the moment when the inner light of our minds "turns on," so to speak, and a new eternal soul is officially formed.

Indeed, I suggest that if that initial birth and greater awakening did not occur, then that potential soul would not have come into being,...

...hence the real tragedy of the abortion issue.
_______
Trajk Logik wrote: Tue Apr 02, 2024 1:05 pm How can you be "coaxed-out" if you didn't already have some kind of access to the world that is "coaxing" you out?
Of course you have access to the world via your body. And that's because your body and brain represent the physiological means by which your mind and soul were awakened into existence within this world.

It's needless to say that we're both just speculating here, but isn't it at least logical to assume that the official (mechanistic) moment when a brand-new soul (a brand-new "I Am-ness") is formed, is the moment when the proverbial "lights come on" after being born-out of its mother's womb, as opposed to some random and arbitrary moment during the 9-month span between conception and birth?

In the meantime, think of the body and brain as simply being the "interface" that connects the inner (and autonomous) dimension of your mind to that of the "womb-like" inner (and autonomous) dimension of God's mind (the universe).

Indeed, your body and brain are not a part of your being, they are a part of God's being.

And by sensing and manipulating this amazing "interface" (again, your body), along with all the other phenomenal features of the universe, you are involved in the rare instance of literally seeing, touching, hearing, smelling, and tasting another mind's (another soul's) personal mental holography.
Trajk Logik wrote: Tue Apr 02, 2024 1:05 pm It seems obvious to me that once your brain and sensory organs have fully developed you can sense the world, even if it's just the warm, dark and cramped environment of the womb.
Is your central consciousness (your "I Am-ness") accessing and sensing the outer world when you are engrossed in a vivid dream?

No, it is not.

Indeed, what do you think your alarm clock is for if not to "coax" your "I Am-ness" out of that dream world?

Well, the same thing especially applies to that initial coaxing you receive at the moment of birth, when the doctor (or whoever) slaps your butt (or whatever method),...

Image

...thus, acting as a proverbial "alarm clock" to coax the almost "liquid-like" essence of your mind out of that pre-birth - twilight - state of awareness where you (if you are being honest) had no real or acute cognition of your body or surroundings.

From then on, this ebb and flow of your consciousness - out of, then back into - your body, takes place every time you fall asleep and then wake back up again.

Why in the world do you think that someone can touch you anywhere on your body while you are sleeping (assuming it's not an aggressive touch), and you will be oblivious to that touch?

Well, I suggest it's because the "liquid-like" aspect of your mind has literally withdrawn from the ubiquitous network of your body's nervous system and is being directed inward, into the inner-dimension of your own "universe," so to speak.

And isn't it interesting that when the, again, "liquid-like" essence of your consciousness flows outward from your mind and into your body, the multifarious features of the universe (the holographic-like phenomena of God's mind) look and feel real and solid,...

...but, when that same "liquid-like" essence of your consciousness ebbs back into your mind (i.e., "retained" at the source), the multifarious features of your own mind look and feel real and solid.

Now (other than making me seem like a lunatic for posing the scenario), try to imagine what that implies about the ultimate status of our minds when we die and are completely released from the "placental-like" reality of these temporary bodies.

Here's a hint...

Image
_______
User avatar
Trajk Logik
Posts: 390
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2016 12:35 pm

Re: Consciousness and the Brain in the Vat

Post by Trajk Logik »

seeds wrote: Tue Apr 02, 2024 10:30 pm Of course you have access to the world via your body. And that's because your body and brain represent the physiological means by which your mind and soul were awakened into existence within this world.

It's needless to say that we're both just speculating here, but isn't it at least logical to assume that the official (mechanistic) moment when a brand-new soul (a brand-new "I Am-ness") is formed, is the moment when the proverbial "lights come on" after being born-out of its mother's womb, as opposed to some random and arbitrary moment during the 9-month span between conception and birth?
I never said it was arbitrary. I said (and yes I am speculating) that "the lights are on" when the brain and nervous system are fully formed, which is around the end of the 2nd trimester. Just because the baby is in the dark space of its mother's womb does not mean that it can't be conscious. Do you immediately lose consciousness when you walk into a dark room? Of course not. The baby is conscious and the warm, dark and cramped environment of the womb is all it knows. When it is born it simply changes locations from being in the womb to being outside it, and the only change in consciousness is just an awareness of being somewhere other than where you were and it's such a stark change that it stresses the baby out.

The baby is only spanked on the behind to get it to wake up and cry and start breathing if it already isn't when born. It's not always necessary.

Other than that, I have no clue what a "soul" is or "I Am-ness" is. Maybe you mean when the child becomes self-aware and understands it has an identity, but that doesn't come until months to years after it is born.
seeds wrote: Tue Apr 02, 2024 10:30 pm In the meantime, think of the body and brain as simply being the "interface" that connects the inner (and autonomous) dimension of your mind to that of the "womb-like" inner (and autonomous) dimension of God's mind (the universe).

Indeed, your body and brain are not a part of your being, they are a part of God's being.
Does this mean I can blame God for everything the evil minds in this world do?

I find it odd that God would have part of itself not believe in itself and another part believe in itself. Seems like God has multiple personality disorder.

seeds wrote: Tue Apr 02, 2024 10:30 pm Is your central consciousness (your "I Am-ness") accessing and sensing the outer world when you are engrossed in a vivid dream?

No, it is not.

Indeed, what do you think your alarm clock is for if not to "coax" your "I Am-ness" out of that dream world?

Well, the same thing especially applies to that initial coaxing you receive at the moment of birth, when the doctor (or whoever) slaps your butt (or whatever method),...
I have no idea what this has to do with the example of the baby being born. The baby in the womb is not dreaming it is in the womb. It is in the womb and experiencing being in the womb. When it is born it is now experiencing being in a different location in the same world, no different from you walking from being outside on a hot day into a cool air-conditioned room. The difference is that the hot day is all the baby has ever known and never experiencing anything else. The shock causes stress you can see in the baby's heart rate.

I've watched all three of my kids being born and the doctor didn't have to spank them to get them to cry and I never saw the doctor do anything else that would lead me to believe that they are triggering some "I Am-ness" in the baby. The baby came out, she used a bulb syringe to clear their nasal and throat so they could breath and they started crying. She let me cut the umbilical cord and they put the baby in a warm cradle, put a little hat on their head and took footprints and put some kind of gel on their eyes to reduce the swelling so they can open their eyes easier. They wrapped the baby in a blanket and gave the baby to the mother to hold and the baby started calming down. What part of that is where they imbued the baby with "I Am-ness"?


seeds wrote: Tue Apr 02, 2024 10:30 pm Why in the world do you think that someone can touch you anywhere on your body while you are sleeping (assuming it's not an aggressive touch), and you will be oblivious to that touch?
I do wake up when someone touches me, most of the time. I am a light sleeper. My consciousness doesn't leave my body when I'm asleep. I'm just conscious of something else (my dream world). Whose to say that your dreams aren't memories of another life in some other time and place? Information is fundamental and information is never lost, only changed.
seeds wrote: Tue Apr 02, 2024 10:30 pm And isn't it interesting that when the, again, "liquid-like" essence of your consciousness flows outward from your mind and into your body, the multifarious features of the universe (the holographic-like phenomena of God's mind) look and feel real and solid,...

...but, when that same "liquid-like" essence of your consciousness ebbs back into your mind (i.e., "retained" at the source), the multifarious features of your own mind look and feel real and solid.

Now (other than making me seem like a lunatic for posing the scenario), try to imagine what that implies about the ultimate status of our minds when we die and are completely released from the "placental-like" reality of these temporary bodies.

_______
I wouldn't use "liquid-like" to describe my mind or consciousness. I see it more as a process - processing information. When we die, the process stops.
Post Reply