Christian Civilization -- The Central Issue

[Belinda]

Is it really odd that I would try to understand what you believe?

It is not going to be the route that helps us to understand Dawson, or many apologists, nor the on-going struggles in our present.

If I do not make absolute claims of belief in this or that nevertheless the larger conversation is still interesting and important.

I am not here proselytizing. Though I do definitely believe that the realm of these considerations and ideas are extremely relevant.

That is why, as an adjunct to Dawson’s assertion about Christianity as the key to human renewal, I am trying to be clear about the core metaphysical tenets of Christianity.

Do you mean "metaphysical" according to today's philosophical usage , or according to popular meaning i.e. supernatural varieties including ghosts, miracles, and stuff?

It's obvious that the Christian ontology is that there be minds/souls ,physical bodies, and God.
There are people who aim to modernise Christianity after scientific enlightenment. This modernisation involves a different ontology : a monist ontology instead of a dualist ontology. Creation would remain problematic for many people without their learning idealist monism; absolute idealism involves shifting the responsibility for creation from God or Nature to man. There is no problem accepting a Christ within the ontology of absolute idealism; indeed it's hard to imagine how a culture of belief could arise outwith history, de novo.

The definitive doctrine of Christianity is the Resurrection. For the Resurrection to succeed within a monistic world view the Resurrection must be a psychological event but not a physical event. So, what is it that is resurrected? Not the dead body of Jesus to be sure, but the enduring memory of a life so well lived that we may use it as a template.

It remains to turn this reasonable faith to politics; and the only method that can succeed is liberal education for all persons of all 'faiths' and democracy.

Many if not most main stream churches and mosques do a good job of keeping their congregations to the straight and narrow. Holy books especially The Bible should be retained as an anchor, especially as some people evidently cannot engage with allegories and metaphors, but we all need regularly to review and replenish courage and hope, and more educated individuals would be armed with some of the paraphernalia of hermaneutics.

[attofishpi]

The definitive doctrine of Christianity is the Resurrection. For the Resurrection to succeed within a monistic world view the Resurrection must be a psychological event but not a physical event. So, what is it that is resurrected? Not the dead body of Jesus to be sure, but the enduring memory of a life so well lived that we may use it as a template.

Nah.

What 'dead body'? (Apparently it disappeared prior to Christ reforming into a body) When it comes to material at the behest of the planck level of control over matter a dead body is as immaterial as a thought (to God).

I've been a witness at least to "miracles" of such an extent..leaving no doubt about this 'resurrection'. Such that now I must insist your statement suggesting the death and resurrection is some 'template' - a metaphor, is still short of sight.

The thing is, people, especially atheists have to find reasoning for something quite profound upon society such as Christianity - ya can't QUITE get yer head around the crumpet of the truth to the nature of reality.

[Belinda]

The definitive doctrine of Christianity is the Resurrection. For the Resurrection to succeed within a monistic world view the Resurrection must be a psychological event but not a physical event. So, what is it that is resurrected? Not the dead body of Jesus to be sure, but the enduring memory of a life so well lived that we may use it as a template.

Nah.

What 'dead body'? (Apparently it disappeared prior to Christ reforming into a body) When it comes to material at the behest of the planck level of control over matter a dead body is as immaterial as a thought (to God).

I've been a witness at least to "miracles" of such an extent..leaving no doubt about this 'resurrection'. Such that now I must insist your statement suggesting the death and resurrection is some 'template' - a metaphor, is still short of sight.

The thing is, people, especially atheists have to find reasoning for something quite profound upon society such as Christianity - ya can't QUITE get yer head around the crumpet of the truth to the nature of reality.

Do you understand that Palestine at the time of Jesus was a real historical country? This was not a magical country but was as real and natural as ,for instance, New York, in the 1950s.

[attofishpi]

The definitive doctrine of Christianity is the Resurrection. For the Resurrection to succeed within a monistic world view the Resurrection must be a psychological event but not a physical event. So, what is it that is resurrected? Not the dead body of Jesus to be sure, but the enduring memory of a life so well lived that we may use it as a template.

Nah.

What 'dead body'? (Apparently it disappeared prior to Christ reforming into a body) When it comes to material at the behest of the planck level of control over matter a dead body is as immaterial as a thought (to God).

I've been a witness at least to "miracles" of such an extent..leaving no doubt about this 'resurrection'. Such that now I must insist your statement suggesting the death and resurrection is some 'template' - a metaphor, is still short of sight.

The thing is, people, especially atheists have to find reasoning for something quite profound upon society such as Christianity - ya can't QUITE get yer head around the crumpet of the truth to the nature of reality.

Do you understand that Palestine at the time of Jesus was a real historical country? This was not a magical country but was as real and natural as ,for instance, New York, in the 1950s.

I honestly don't understand what your point is within the context of our discussion.

[Belinda]

Nah.

What 'dead body'? (Apparently it disappeared prior to Christ reforming into a body) When it comes to material at the behest of the planck level of control over matter a dead body is as immaterial as a thought (to God).

I've been a witness at least to "miracles" of such an extent..leaving no doubt about this 'resurrection'. Such that now I must insist your statement suggesting the death and resurrection is some 'template' - a metaphor, is still short of sight.

The thing is, people, especially atheists have to find reasoning for something quite profound upon society such as Christianity - ya can't QUITE get yer head around the crumpet of the truth to the nature of reality.

Do you understand that Palestine at the time of Jesus was a real historical country? This was not a magical country but was as real and natural as ,for instance, New York, in the 1950s.

I honestly don't understand what your point is within the context of our discussion.

My main point is that there are no supernatural events, not ever were any supernatural events. However that fact is not a reason to not be Christian.

[attofishpi]

Do you understand that Palestine at the time of Jesus was a real historical country? This was not a magical country but was as real and natural as ,for instance, New York, in the 1950s.

I honestly don't understand what your point is within the context of our discussion.

My main point is that there are no supernatural events, not ever were any supernatural events. However that fact is not a reason to not be Christian.

So you honestly believe that you have never existed prior to this existence and once dead you are eternally dead?

You don't believe that there could plausibly be an intelligence operating below the planck scale that manifests the backbone to our reality?

You believe that the his_story of Christ is a falsehood. Never was water turned to wine, never did he die by human hand and was resurrected to his followers (for any reason God may have)?

[Alexis Jacobi]

….

Wednesday, Dubious! Mark Your Calendar!

[Belinda]

I honestly don't understand what your point is within the context of our discussion.

My main point is that there are no supernatural events, not ever were any supernatural events. However that fact is not a reason to not be Christian.

So you honestly believe that you have never existed prior to this existence and once dead you are eternally dead?

You don't believe that there could plausibly be an intelligence operating below the planck scale that manifests the backbone to our reality?

You believe that the his_story of Christ is a falsehood. Never was water turned to wine, never did he die by human hand and was resurrected to his followers (for any reason God may have)?

Yes. I believe the negatives you suggest. (One thing I hope that what we two have in common is we fix our colours to the mast, unlike Jacobi.)

However what you suggest is not the whole of what I believe. I also believe a lot of positives , most of which I explained three posts ago. Again, I claim it is possible to be a Christian without believing that supernatural events happened.

[Alexis Jacobi]

If it is observered/experienced, it's natural. It is part of the way things are. It is real. And Grace if offered throughout all of the natural world, if you open to it.

From the Catholic Christian perspective, what you are referring to as Grace, is not.

Nevertheless what you are referring to is something I understand.

[attofishpi]

My main point is that there are no supernatural events, not ever were any supernatural events. However that fact is not a reason to not be Christian.

So you honestly believe that you have never existed prior to this existence and once dead you are eternally dead?

You don't believe that there could plausibly be an intelligence operating below the planck scale that manifests the backbone to our reality?

You believe that the his_story of Christ is a falsehood. Never was water turned to wine, never did he die by human hand and was resurrected to his followers (for any reason God may have)?

Yes. I believe the negatives you suggest. (One thing I hope that what we two have in common is we fix our colours to the mast, unlike Jacobi.)

Thus, you believe anything beyond what appears clear and natural as supernatural and an untruth.

You believe there is NOTHING plausible within your comprehension of science and reality for any "supernatural" event to occur, such as a glass of water to form instantly into wine?

However what you suggest is not the whole of what I believe. I also believe a lot of positives , most of which I explained three posts ago. Again, I claim it is possible to be a Christian without believing that supernatural events happened.

Sure, but that's superlative to Y God placed me here.

[Harbal]

You believe there is NOTHING plausible within your comprehension of science and reality for any "supernatural" event to occur, such as a glass of water to form instantly into wine?

Glasses of water suddenly becoming glasses of wine is just wishful thinking, Fishy. How would the water even know what sort of wine to turn into?

[Alexis Jacobi]

If it is observered/experienced, it's natural. It is part of the way things are. It is real. And Grace if offered throughout all of the natural world, if you open to it. Anywhere a human goes, it is a facet of reality. Google Grace is Everywhere and you'll find the Catholics lining up. There's an old hatred of the body, the physical in Christianity. It's a kind of contamination obsessive-compulsive disorder. It's one of the many reasons that Christianity will always unravel. It has self-hatred built into it. So, does the whole crucifixion episode and attendant 'born-in-debt metaphysics, which isn't really necessary for the idea of Grace. Though even Grace is tinged with self-hatred. It is often presented as a gift and an implicit debt, rather than part of parcel of being loved. It is, at least in Catholicism, not simply that one cannot do it alone or that God knows, can do things we do not. It's part of that debt mentality and the whole sacrifice submission undercurrent in not only the Abrahamic religions but even many parts of Hinduism and in some almost secular form in Buddhism as the baby of Hinduism.

While these thoughts (and your understanding of Catholic theological philosophy) are in some discord with my own, still it is great that you do express them.

I am interested, also, in knowing more about your own pagan and animist understanding of things.

It's one of the many reasons that Christianity will always unravel.

Christianity, at the world level (with Pentecostalism mainly) is surging forward powerfully. Especially in the global south.

My own interest is original and traditional Catholicism and though it is a very small faction almost to being irrelevant, the interest is growing.

[attofishpi]

You believe there is NOTHING plausible within your comprehension of science and reality for any "supernatural" event to occur, such as a glass of water to form instantly into wine?

Glasses of water suddenly becoming glasses of wine is just wishful thinking, Fishy. How would the water even know what sort of wine to turn into?

It's a doddle for the entity most call God. Not wishful thinking. FFS how much cumulative evidence need I provide?

Like this, this is just some weird quirk of etymology:- HELL O

[Alexis Jacobi]

Do you mean "metaphysical" according to today's philosophical usage, or according to popular meaning i.e. supernatural varieties including ghosts, miracles, and stuff?

The higher ideals are *metaphysical* in my sense of the word. Those higher regions, which I do associate with divinity, are regions of aspiration that can be felt or realized.

[Alexis Jacobi]

Yes. I believe the negatives you suggest. (One thing I hope that what we two have in common is we fix our colours to the mast, unlike Jacobi.)

Well, I have a number of vessels, you see, and the colors are not interchangeable.