Counter Argument for The Combination Problem for Panpsychism

[aswarbs]

Hello everyone! I joined this forum to get opinions on some arguments I have thought of for certain problems, and this is one for panpsychism:

My understanding of the theory is that consciousness is a fundamental quality of the universe. I am unsure on whether panpsychists believe that consciousness is the ONLY fundamental force of the universe, or if consciousness is fundamental alongside other commonly held fundamental forces, like energy, electromagnetism, etc.. If the second is true, and physical processes such as energy are also fundamental, it seems that the combination problem is trivial: we have observed that physical processes can form complex objects without human intervention, such as trees: if we assume that another quality is fundamental (ignoring consciousness), and this quality is used to make a complex system like a tree, which seems to have fundamental components working together to form a complex system, why can’t the same be true of consciousness? My point is that we have observed other fundamental qualities “working together” to form a complex system, so it is not farfetched to conclude the same of consciousness.

I would love to get some opinions and feedback on this! And if anyone has any recommendations for further reading it would also be appreciated

[Atla]

Hello everyone! I joined this forum to get opinions on some arguments I have thought of for certain problems, and this is one for panpsychism:

My understanding of the theory is that consciousness is a fundamental quality of the universe. I am unsure on whether panpsychists believe that consciousness is the ONLY fundamental force of the universe, or if consciousness is fundamental alongside other commonly held fundamental forces, like energy, electromagnetism, etc.. If the second is true, and physical processes such as energy are also fundamental, it seems that the combination problem is trivial: we have observed that physical processes can form complex objects without human intervention, such as trees: if we assume that another quality is fundamental (ignoring consciousness), and this quality is used to make a complex system like a tree, which seems to have fundamental components working together to form a complex system, why can’t the same be true of consciousness? My point is that we have observed other fundamental qualities “working together” to form a complex system, so it is not farfetched to conclude the same of consciousness.

I would love to get some opinions and feedback on this! And if anyone has any recommendations for further reading it would also be appreciated

My response will be fairly outlandish: Western philosophy probably conflates two different things when it comes to consciousness. One is the conscious mental processes of the organism brain/mind, the other one is the eternal first-person-view of consciousness.

Panpsychism takes the above conflated view, and mixes it with the other defect of Western philosophy, dualism, where there is consciousness and the physical universe, and these two are intertwined everywhere.

Even with the above defects, panpsychism is one of the best Western views. But the probably correct view is a version of "Eastern" nondualism where we realize that the conscious mental processes of the organism brain/mind are local, not universal. However the eternal first-person-view is universal, it doesn't belong to the organism brain/minds.

It's this eternal first-person-view that is intertwined with the physical universe everywhere. Except we have to drop the dualism too, they aren't intertwined but one and the same thing. And also one and the same thing as existence.

So in short there is only a combination problem when we assume that there are two things to combine. And once we do that, our view remains forever inconsistent.

[Iwannaplato]

Hello everyone! I joined this forum to get opinions on some arguments I have thought of for certain problems, and this is one for panpsychism:

My understanding of the theory is that consciousness is a fundamental quality of the universe. I am unsure on whether panpsychists believe that consciousness is the ONLY fundamental force of the universe,

I don't think it is considered a force, but rather and aspect of matter.

or if consciousness is fundamental alongside other commonly held fundamental forces, like energy, electromagnetism, etc.. If the second is true, and physical processes such as energy are also fundamental, it seems that the combination problem is trivial: we have observed that physical processes can form complex objects without human intervention, such as trees: if we assume that another quality is fundamental (ignoring consciousness), and this quality is used to make a complex system like a tree, which seems to have fundamental components working together to form a complex system, why can’t the same be true of consciousness? My point is that we have observed other fundamental qualities “working together” to form a complex system, so it is not farfetched to conclude the same of consciousness.

Modern panpsychists might have one set of reasons for believing in panpsychism, but those coming from more tribal/indigenous settings might well have experiential reasons for thinking that everything is aware. We can black box whether they are right or not. IOW they are not deciding that they can rule out that consciousness could be an emerged property, it just that all things having consciousness fits their experience and culture. And it's always important, I think, to realize that functions of minds and consciousness need not be hinged together.