Is the Catholic Response Regarding Advocates in Christianity Fallacious?
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Is the Catholic Response Regarding Advocates in Christianity Fallacious?
In religious discussion there's a common statement in Christianity that claims Jesus Christ is our advocate with the Father.
A Catholic might respond with, "Yes, He is our advocate, but that doesnt mean there arent other advocates as well."
Does that response violate logic, or contains a fallacy? I'd like to study that kind of reasoning more deeply, because it seems flawed for a Catholic to say that, but I'm not really sure.
A Catholic might respond with, "Yes, He is our advocate, but that doesnt mean there arent other advocates as well."
Does that response violate logic, or contains a fallacy? I'd like to study that kind of reasoning more deeply, because it seems flawed for a Catholic to say that, but I'm not really sure.
Re: Is the Catholic Response Regarding Advocates in Christianity Fallacious?
Not to me, no.edwardsjethro wrote: ↑Mon Mar 18, 2024 5:43 am In religious discussion there's a common statement in Christianity that claims Jesus Christ is our advocate with the Father.
A Catholic might respond with, "Yes, He is our advocate, but that doesnt mean there arent other advocates as well."
Does that response violate logic, or contains a fallacy?
Okay.edwardsjethro wrote: ↑Mon Mar 18, 2024 5:43 am I'd like to study that kind of reasoning more deeply, because it seems flawed for a Catholic to say that, but I'm not really sure.
Re: Is the Catholic Response Regarding Advocates in Christianity Fallacious?
It looks like you've got the all clear, edwardsjethro, so go forth and study.Age wrote: ↑Thu Mar 28, 2024 9:33 pmOkay.edwardsjethro wrote: ↑Mon Mar 18, 2024 5:43 am I'd like to study that kind of reasoning more deeply, because it seems flawed for a Catholic to say that, but I'm not really sure.
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Re: Is the Catholic Response Regarding Advocates in Christianity Fallacious?
ask a saintedwardsjethro wrote: ↑Mon Mar 18, 2024 5:43 am In religious discussion there's a common statement in Christianity that claims Jesus Christ is our advocate with the Father.
A Catholic might respond with, "Yes, He is our advocate, but that doesnt mean there arent other advocates as well."
Does that response violate logic, or contains a fallacy? I'd like to study that kind of reasoning more deeply, because it seems flawed for a Catholic to say that, but I'm not really sure.
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- Alexis Jacobi
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Re: Is the Catholic Response Regarding Advocates in Christianity Fallacious?
The term “mediator” is often used. But I have not seen “advocate” used quite in that way.edwardsjethro wrote: ↑Mon Mar 18, 2024 5:43 am In religious discussion there's a common statement in Christianity that claims Jesus Christ is our advocate with the Father.
A Catholic might respond with, "Yes, He is our advocate, but that doesnt mean there arent other advocates as well."
Does that response violate logic, or contains a fallacy? I'd like to study that kind of reasoning more deeply, because it seems flawed for a Catholic to say that, but I'm not really sure.
In Catholicism Mary is definitely presented as an •advocate•. In the sense that her will and influence has power to influence her son. When all help is imagined lost, Mary can (does) advocate for the supplicant. And as well it is recommended that Jesus (and God presumably) is best approached somewhat indirectly, through Mary. She represents in that sense Grace intrinsically. And as you may know, in Catholicism, the Incarnation of the divine being required a special vessel: Mary, the regenerated Eve.
Catholicism sees existence in three levels: a church militant (our world, our struggles); a Church triumphant (heaven, a world beyond, where the saints exist). They are imbued with divine being and power and can certainly be “advocates” for earthly devotees — those in the church militant.
There is another category: those souls in a purgatorial (purificatory) existence. They depend on the advocacy of the church militant, and perhaps on that of the church triumphant (who would know about that though?) They are in a state of purification.
Defy logic? If compared to Protestant and Calvinist conception, certainly! Because they establish different tenets as a conceptual starting point.
The Catholic schema, as you likely realize, is older, more *primitive* you might say. In any case a far older •picture• than a somewhat more modern and rationalized (reduced, boiled down) Protestantism which has had pressed out of it that archaic naïveté which Catholicism still shelters.
Re: Is the Catholic Response Regarding Advocates in Christianity Fallacious?
Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Thu Mar 28, 2024 10:02 pm And as well it is recommended that Jesus (and God presumably) is best approached somewhat indirectly, through Mary.
So Mary is sort of God's receptionist?
To make an appointment, phone Mary on ........... ☎
Re: Is the Catholic Response Regarding Advocates in Christianity Fallacious?
Like everything else in the Christian ideaology it is absurd and contradictory.edwardsjethro wrote: ↑Mon Mar 18, 2024 5:43 am In religious discussion there's a common statement in Christianity that claims Jesus Christ is our advocate with the Father.
A Catholic might respond with, "Yes, He is our advocate, but that doesnt mean there arent other advocates as well."
Does that response violate logic, or contains a fallacy? I'd like to study that kind of reasoning more deeply, because it seems flawed for a Catholic to say that, but I'm not really sure.
Re: Is the Catholic Response Regarding Advocates in Christianity Fallacious?
So, could this mean that 'the way' to God, and/or Heaven, is through 'a virgin'?Harbal wrote: ↑Thu Mar 28, 2024 10:13 pmAlexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Thu Mar 28, 2024 10:02 pm And as well it is recommended that Jesus (and God presumably) is best approached somewhat indirectly, through Mary.
So Mary is sort of God's receptionist?
To make an appointment, phone Mary on ........... ☎
Could the "muslims" be onto, or into, something here?
Re: Is the Catholic Response Regarding Advocates in Christianity Fallacious?
If this is 'the way' one 'looks at' and 'sees' something, then 'this' is all they will 'see', and the 'only way' they will 'look'.Sculptor wrote: ↑Thu Mar 28, 2024 11:04 pmLike everything else in the Christian ideaology it is absurd and contradictory.edwardsjethro wrote: ↑Mon Mar 18, 2024 5:43 am In religious discussion there's a common statement in Christianity that claims Jesus Christ is our advocate with the Father.
A Catholic might respond with, "Yes, He is our advocate, but that doesnt mean there arent other advocates as well."
Does that response violate logic, or contains a fallacy? I'd like to study that kind of reasoning more deeply, because it seems flawed for a Catholic to say that, but I'm not really sure.
For example, could the word 'God' not be what you 'see' It as? Or, could 'heaven' and 'hell' be not what you 'see' them as? Or, could absolutely anything in "christian theology" not be as you were 'taught' to 'look at' and 'see' 'it' as?
In fact, could the interpretation/s that you have been 'taught' to 'see' and 'interpret' the 'same way' have been 'taught' you Incorrectly in 'any way' at all?
Re: Is the Catholic Response Regarding Advocates in Christianity Fallacious?
If this is true, then this will help me tremendously in what I have to explain and show, and will add further light and more proof onto things here.Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Thu Mar 28, 2024 10:02 pmThe term “mediator” is often used. But I have not seen “advocate” used quite in that way.edwardsjethro wrote: ↑Mon Mar 18, 2024 5:43 am In religious discussion there's a common statement in Christianity that claims Jesus Christ is our advocate with the Father.
A Catholic might respond with, "Yes, He is our advocate, but that doesnt mean there arent other advocates as well."
Does that response violate logic, or contains a fallacy? I'd like to study that kind of reasoning more deeply, because it seems flawed for a Catholic to say that, but I'm not really sure.
In Catholicism Mary is definitely presented as an •advocate•. In the sense that her will and influence has power to influence her son.
But absolutely none of that defies logic at all. In fact that only adds further proof to what is already irrefutably True.Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Thu Mar 28, 2024 10:02 pm When all help is imagined lost, Mary can (does) advocate for the supplicant. And as well it is recommended that Jesus (and God presumably) is best approached somewhat indirectly, through Mary. She represents in that sense Grace intrinsically. And as you may know, in Catholicism, the Incarnation of the divine being required a special vessel: Mary, the regenerated Eve.
Catholicism sees existence in three levels: a church militant (our world, our struggles); a Church triumphant (heaven, a world beyond, where the saints exist). They are imbued with divine being and power and can certainly be “advocates” for earthly devotees — those in the church militant.
There is another category: those souls in a purgatorial (purificatory) existence. They depend on the advocacy of the church militant, and perhaps on that of the church triumphant (who would know about that though?) They are in a state of purification.
Defy logic? If compared to Protestant and Calvinist conception, certainly!
But, once one also comes-to-see the actual Truth and thus the 'big and full Picture', crystal clearly, then the 'old stories' are 'seen' for what was Truly been presented, and shown, without all of the 'confused and confusing misinterpretations', which have been added on, along the way.Alexis Jacobi wrote: ↑Thu Mar 28, 2024 10:02 pm Because they establish different tenets as a conceptual starting point.
The Catholic schema, as you likely realize, is older, more *primitive* you might say. In any case a far older •picture• than a somewhat more modern and rationalized (reduced, boiled down) Protestantism which has had pressed out of it that archaic naïveté which Catholicism still shelters.
Re: Is the Catholic Response Regarding Advocates in Christianity Fallacious?
Age wrote: ↑Thu Mar 28, 2024 11:45 pmIf this is 'the way' one 'looks at' and 'sees' something, then 'this' is all they will 'see', and the 'only way' they will 'look'.Sculptor wrote: ↑Thu Mar 28, 2024 11:04 pmLike everything else in the Christian ideaology it is absurd and contradictory.edwardsjethro wrote: ↑Mon Mar 18, 2024 5:43 am In religious discussion there's a common statement in Christianity that claims Jesus Christ is our advocate with the Father.
A Catholic might respond with, "Yes, He is our advocate, but that doesnt mean there arent other advocates as well."
Does that response violate logic, or contains a fallacy? I'd like to study that kind of reasoning more deeply, because it seems flawed for a Catholic to say that, but I'm not really sure.
For example, could the word 'God' not be what you 'see' It as? Or, could 'heaven' and 'hell' be not what you 'see' them as? Or, could absolutely anything in "christian theology" not be as you were 'taught' to 'look at' and 'see' 'it' as?
In fact, could the interpretation/s that you have been 'taught' to 'see' and 'interpret' the 'same way' have been 'taught' you Incorrectly in 'any way' at all?
Re: Is the Catholic Response Regarding Advocates in Christianity Fallacious?
Notice and see how these posters here will not just answer very simply asked clarifying questions, at all, because even if they attempted to with lies or deceit, then they would still end up contradicting "themselves" and/or being hypocritical. So, imagine if they, let alone, actually answered the clarifying questions I pose, and ask them, Honestly and OPENLY, and what would be the actual outcome would be of doing so?Sculptor wrote: ↑Fri Mar 29, 2024 9:49 amAge wrote: ↑Thu Mar 28, 2024 11:45 pmIf this is 'the way' one 'looks at' and 'sees' something, then 'this' is all they will 'see', and the 'only way' they will 'look'.
For example, could the word 'God' not be what you 'see' It as? Or, could 'heaven' and 'hell' be not what you 'see' them as? Or, could absolutely anything in "christian theology" not be as you were 'taught' to 'look at' and 'see' 'it' as?
In fact, could the interpretation/s that you have been 'taught' to 'see' and 'interpret' the 'same way' have been 'taught' you Incorrectly in 'any way' at all?
Re: Is the Catholic Response Regarding Advocates in Christianity Fallacious?
Yes that is in fact exactly what you did. and that is why you got the Laughs.Age wrote: ↑Sat Mar 30, 2024 12:00 amNotice and see how these posters here will not just answer very simply asked clarifying questions, at all, because even if they attempted to with lies or deceit, then they would still end up contradicting "themselves" and/or being hypocritical. So, imagine if they, let alone, actually answered the clarifying questions I pose, and ask them, Honestly and OPENLY, and what would be the actual outcome would be of doing so?Sculptor wrote: ↑Fri Mar 29, 2024 9:49 amAge wrote: ↑Thu Mar 28, 2024 11:45 pm
If this is 'the way' one 'looks at' and 'sees' something, then 'this' is all they will 'see', and the 'only way' they will 'look'.
For example, could the word 'God' not be what you 'see' It as? Or, could 'heaven' and 'hell' be not what you 'see' them as? Or, could absolutely anything in "christian theology" not be as you were 'taught' to 'look at' and 'see' 'it' as?
In fact, could the interpretation/s that you have been 'taught' to 'see' and 'interpret' the 'same way' have been 'taught' you Incorrectly in 'any way' at all?
Re: Is the Catholic Response Regarding Advocates in Christianity Fallacious?
USA possibly one of the most "chrisrian" following countries in the West.
Whereas Finland one of the most godless with about 30% declared atheists.
Yet
Whereas Finland one of the most godless with about 30% declared atheists.
Yet
Re: Is the Catholic Response Regarding Advocates in Christianity Fallacious?
Once again, I will now have to ask this one another clarifying question. What is 'it' 'in fact exactly' that I, supposedly, did here "sculptor"?Sculptor wrote: ↑Sat Mar 30, 2024 10:31 amYes that is in fact exactly what you did. and that is why you got the Laughs.Age wrote: ↑Sat Mar 30, 2024 12:00 amNotice and see how these posters here will not just answer very simply asked clarifying questions, at all, because even if they attempted to with lies or deceit, then they would still end up contradicting "themselves" and/or being hypocritical. So, imagine if they, let alone, actually answered the clarifying questions I pose, and ask them, Honestly and OPENLY, and what would be the actual outcome would be of doing so?
Was 'it';
Not just answer very simply asked clarifying questions, at all? If yes, then where and when?
If I did attempt to answer those questions, then would I, supposedly, end up contradicting, or being hypocritical? If yes, then how and why?
Or, something else?
Also, are you OPEN and Honest enough to just say what 'it' is, exactly, that you are laughing at here?