He knows right from wrong. What more do you want him to say, "Well my account of right and wrong is the REAL account of right and wrong, therefore I have it right and everyone else has it wrong..."Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Mar 23, 2024 9:38 pmActually, I very much believe that. But do you mean you are able to distinguish objective right and wrong, or merely that you know when you feel "wrongish" and "rightish"? Because I think your explanation there is going to require you to say you think you have some intuition about what right and wrong really are, not just about your own feelings.
Is morality objective or subjective?
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?
No. I'm asking what you think I should do differently. How is no one "facing" the problem but you?Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Mar 23, 2024 9:56 pmAre you doing your best to distract from the obvious point stated above by trying to make every term in an obvious question "problematic", or are you having trouble with your medication levels?Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Mar 23, 2024 9:32 pmWhat would you like me to do differently so that I can properly "face" that problem?Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Mar 23, 2024 9:21 pm
That no sensible account can be made of a subjective morality.
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?
Or how do you "face" the problem which is obviously better than my "facing" of the problem?
Re: Is morality objective or subjective?
But if the data does not show a difference between those who believe in objective morality, and those who don't, how does any of this support your argument? I am not making any claims about subjective morality that this study of yours refutes, but it does suggest that morality that is based on a belief in objective moral truth is not as robust as you seem to think.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Mar 23, 2024 9:38 pmThe study was interested in the question of the psychology of a professional torturer. And they discovered it was the same as anybody else: if you violate your conscience, it goes away. And then very normal people can be induced to do very wicked things.Harbal wrote: ↑Sat Mar 23, 2024 9:24 pmIsn't religious observance higher in South American countries than in, say, mine?Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Mar 23, 2024 9:00 pm They did a study of South American torturers, in which they found that the major crisis of conscience only happened the first time, and the second time was only about half as hard...and eventually, ordinary family men became capable of torturing political prisoners all day, then coming home and kissing their wives and playing with their kids.
The same was found in the case of Nazi secret policemen and torturers in WW2. Many of them were ordinary Germans and Poles, but once they had bowed to the demand that they harm others, and had violated their consciences, there was little difficulty in doing it again.
In neither study was "religion" (whatever you think that is) either examined or eliminated as a variable. So no conclusion about the relative value of any particular "religion" can be deduced. But the strength of conscience...that's a different matter.
But you would need a sense of morality to see it, not intelligence, therefore you must assume that I have such a sense.IC wrote:Because you're intelligent, and it's not hard to see.Harbal wrote:Why do you say that to me as if you assume I will see the problem you are alluding to?
Why don't we put aside the terms "objective" and "subjective" for a moment? In order to make a moral judgement, you have a reference, and so do I, it is just that your reference is external, and mine is internal.IC wrote:Actually, I very much believe that. But do you mean you are able to distinguish objective right and wrong, or merely that you know when you feel "wrongish" and "rightish"? Because I think your explanation there is going to require you to say you think you have some intuition about what right and wrong really are, not just about your own feelings.Harbal wrote:Surely it can't be because, despite my subjective position, you realise I am able to distinguish between right and wrong.
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?
Objective right and wrong, or subjective right and wrong?Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Mar 23, 2024 9:56 pmHe knows right from wrong.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Mar 23, 2024 9:38 pmActually, I very much believe that. But do you mean you are able to distinguish objective right and wrong, or merely that you know when you feel "wrongish" and "rightish"? Because I think your explanation there is going to require you to say you think you have some intuition about what right and wrong really are, not just about your own feelings.
The answer's obvious, by the way. If it's not objective, then it's not even worth declaring, because EVERYBODY ALWAYS knows what they subjectively feel. Who else is going to "feel" your feelings for you?
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?
I think you should realize that moral subjectivism is nonsense. But that's assuming you want to see the obvious.Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Mar 23, 2024 9:57 pmNo. I'm asking what you think I should do differently.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Mar 23, 2024 9:56 pmAre you doing your best to distract from the obvious point stated above by trying to make every term in an obvious question "problematic", or are you having trouble with your medication levels?Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Mar 23, 2024 9:32 pm
What would you like me to do differently so that I can properly "face" that problem?
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?
No one. That's why we have language, to communicate our feelings.
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?
Why is moral subjectivism "nonsense"? Who is better at knowing when they've been wronged than the person who has been wronged?Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Mar 23, 2024 10:05 pmI think you should realize that moral subjectivism is nonsense. But that's assuming you want to see the obvious.Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Mar 23, 2024 9:57 pmNo. I'm asking what you think I should do differently.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Mar 23, 2024 9:56 pm
Are you doing your best to distract from the obvious point stated above by trying to make every term in an obvious question "problematic", or are you having trouble with your medication levels?
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?
Because my argument is simply that conscience changes.
It would take both. But since conscience is fragile and variable, you'd need more than mere conscience. You'd need intelligence. And you're smart enough to see the problem: subjective morality (or "conscience," if you prefer) is useless to tell us anything UNLESS it also refers to an objective reality that our intelligence can inform us about. Because only our intelligence can tell us whether or not what our consciences are telling us is true.But you would need a sense of morality to see it, not intelligence, therefore you must assume that I have such a sense.IC wrote:Because you're intelligent, and it's not hard to see.Harbal wrote:Why do you say that to me as if you assume I will see the problem you are alluding to?
We cannot. They're the subject of the OP.Why don't we put aside the terms "objective" and "subjective" for a moment?IC wrote:Actually, I very much believe that. But do you mean you are able to distinguish objective right and wrong, or merely that you know when you feel "wrongish" and "rightish"? Because I think your explanation there is going to require you to say you think you have some intuition about what right and wrong really are, not just about your own feelings.Harbal wrote:Surely it can't be because, despite my subjective position, you realise I am able to distinguish between right and wrong.
That doesn't say anything. It only says you have a feeling. And a feeling can be right, or a feeling can be wrong, or foolish, or unanchored to any objective facts at all, or even contrary to truth.In order to make a moral judgement, you have a reference, and so do I, it is just that your reference is external, and mine is internal.
Only reference to an objective standard can tell you whether your conscience is in good order or merely deceiving you.
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?
Apparently, the subjectivist thinks HE is.Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Mar 23, 2024 10:07 pmWhy is moral subjectivism "nonsense"? Who is better at knowing when they've been wronged than the person who has been wronged?Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Mar 23, 2024 10:05 pmI think you should realize that moral subjectivism is nonsense. But that's assuming you want to see the obvious.Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Mar 23, 2024 9:57 pm
No. I'm asking what you think I should do differently.
He has to believe that he is the only one who can say whether or not it was an actual "wrong" or nothing at all that should matter. His own feelings will determine that, he supposes.
Re: Is morality objective or subjective?
No. Just youImmanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Mar 23, 2024 8:39 pmSo Gary and Harbal are "wrong"?Sculptor wrote: ↑Sat Mar 23, 2024 8:35 pmNo it just means that you are wrong yet againImmanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Mar 23, 2024 8:22 pm
It is "bad" that they don't know it?
And do you mean, "objectively bad," or just "Gary and Harbal feel differently, but those who have no conscience are just fine"?
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?
Are you saying that you can do whatever you want to someone who says they are a "subjectivist" and they just "think" they are being wronged?Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Mar 23, 2024 10:14 pmApparently, the subjectivist thinks HE is.Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Mar 23, 2024 10:07 pmWhy is moral subjectivism "nonsense"? Who is better at knowing when they've been wronged than the person who has been wronged?Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Mar 23, 2024 10:05 pm
I think you should realize that moral subjectivism is nonsense. But that's assuming you want to see the obvious.
He has to believe that he is the only one who can say whether or not it was an actual "wrong" or nothing at all that should matter. His own feelings will determine that, he supposes.
Last edited by Gary Childress on Sat Mar 23, 2024 10:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?
If you are a subjectivist, that's exactly what you have to believe. Unless you happen, for no objective reason, to feel the same way they do, they've not been wronged at all. You have to think that there's no such thing as "wrong," if subjectively, you don't believe in it.Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Mar 23, 2024 10:26 pmAre you saying that you can do whatever you want to a subjectivist and they just "think" they are being wronged?Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Mar 23, 2024 10:14 pmApparently, the subjectivist thinks HE is.Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Mar 23, 2024 10:07 pm
Why is moral subjectivism "nonsense"? Who is better at knowing when they've been wronged than the person who has been wronged?
He has to believe that he is the only one who can say whether or not it was an actual "wrong" or nothing at all that should matter. His own feelings will determine that, he supposes.
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?
I don't believe in God in the sense that the Bible speaks of him and really, I'm agnostic, however, I don't believe if I hit someone on the nose that they just think they are being wronged. I think I wronged them. Am I incorrect?Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Mar 23, 2024 10:27 pmIf you are a subjectivist, that's exactly what you have to believe. Unless you happen, for no objective reason, to feel the same way they do, they've not been wronged at all. You have to think that there's no such thing as "wrong," if subjectively, you don't believe in it.Gary Childress wrote: ↑Sat Mar 23, 2024 10:26 pmAre you saying that you can do whatever you want to a subjectivist and they just "think" they are being wronged?Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Mar 23, 2024 10:14 pm
Apparently, the subjectivist thinks HE is.
He has to believe that he is the only one who can say whether or not it was an actual "wrong" or nothing at all that should matter. His own feelings will determine that, he supposes.