truths and facts..

[Peter Kropotkin]

there is a great deal of confusion about truths and facts...

fact: Abe Lincoln was the 16the president of the US...
that is a fact.. but that fact leaves us with little information
that can impact us.. truth is something different...
Lincoln was the greatest president in American history...
that truth, our truth, collective or individually, is not fact,
it is a personal truth that people believe in.. opinion really...

now some people may believe that Lincoln was the greatest president
in American history and some may believe it is FDR... an argument
can be made for both.. and some hold for Washington to be the
greatest president.. and they could also be right...there is no
factual way to know which of them is the best president in American
history... depending on how you rate it, or set standards for it,
the greatest president could be any of those three or even another
possibility....say Teddy Roosevelt.. personally, I'm a fan of his...
but, hay that's me...

one of the major problems here is that people quite often mistake
their truths/opinions as fact...and fact as truths... I see many an argument
occur around this site due to the mistaken use of fact and truth...
Age and Wizard for example mistake their truths for facts..
a fact like Lincoln was the 16th president... whereas they offer
us only truths, opinions... presented as facts.. for example,
wizard say god is objectively a fact, because he personally
believes in god... a personal truth taken to be a universal fact...
belief in god is always a truth, not a fact...
because it can't be objectively proven, like we can show how Lincoln
was the 16th president.. belief in god is a belief in the possibility
for god, not a certainty for god..

and sometimes we believe so strongly in a truth, that we turn it into
a fact.. and express it as a fact.. but it is really just a strongly held
opinion... and many who have held this truth, that there is a god,
have later changed their mind and decided there is no god...
a truth can change.. whereas facts cannot..

if we hold that there is a god, we can also claim there is no god,
the ''TRUTH'' is flexible like that... but facts, we cannot hold
to our own facts... we cannot claim that Lincoln never existed,
or that Lincoln was in fact the 20th president...
the facts are against us...
facts cannot change, but truths/opinions can...

we all hold to truths... GOP/MAGA party holds that America
is a third world country and only IQ45 can save it....
That is truth, opinion with no basis in facts.....

Liberals/democrats hold that we can always improve our country..
there is some way in which we can improve ourselves and make
this a better country... which really says nothing about
overall state of America, just that we can make things better if
we work for it.... which is why liberal states are talking about or
have already done away with bail in criminal cases... a bail for a
rich person is easy, a few bucks, but making bail for a poor person
can be very hard... I can easily make a thousand dollar bail...
a guy in LA, was imprisoned for months because he didn't have
money for bail... a thousand dollars.. an if he is in jail, how
exactly is he supposed to raise a thousand dollars?
that tells us about the little ways in which we try to improve America....
we can't fix every flaw in American, but we can try to fix the more
egregious ones....

and therein lies some important aspects of this fact vs truths discussion...
that we holding to bails as being a problem is a truth, that to some,
bails should be even higher, again, not a fact, but a truth...

which depends on how one sees the reality around them...
and that is done via truths, not facts... One might see a crime
ridden America, but the fact is that crime has been falling in
America for a couple of years.. this is from the FBI....
so do we hold to the truth/opinion that America is crime ridden,
or do we hold to the fact that crime has been falling in America
for the last few years....

when one holds that America is the greatest country on earth
or IQ45 was the greatest president in US history, or Kropotkin
is an idiot, those are truths, opinions that have no facts supporting
them... but one of the interesting things about truths, is that
they can tell us something that facts cannot....
a truth can led us to other truths, that mean something in our lives...

What can I gain from the fact that the earth is 93 million miles from the sun?
not much really... I have to put that fact into wider context to make
that fact become meaningful... the earth being 93 million miles from
the sun makes the earth be in the ''Goldilock'' zone..
which is to say that the earth in in the habitable zone of a star and
can possibly support life...give context and now the fact of the earth's
distance from the sun can mean something very important.....
that our very existence depends on us being in the Goldilock zone..

so, in many ways, truths say something far more meaningful
and interesting than mere facts....if we say Lincoln was the 16th
president is nowhere as meaningful as saying he was the greatest
American president ever.... a truth, a personal truth can have
more meaning than a fact...because it can say more than what a
mere fact can say... but saying that truth/opinion doesn't make
it a fact.. just an opinion and we need to keep that in mind at
all times... knowing the difference between facts and truths...

Kropotkin..

[Peter Kropotkin]

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are
created equal''

we know these words, even if we are not an American, but they
are not facts, they are truths, as they even admit...
the idea is that we can create a better society, a better state if
we can agree that all men/human beings are equal...
and should be treated as such... but much of the world's problems,
(a truth, not fact) stem from an idea that as old as man...
that there are winners and there are losers...
that every action we perform, must have a winner
and it must have a loser..... that is an accepted fact, but
not really a fact, but a truth...

we can play games in which everyone wins...
there doesn't need to be a winner or a loser in every action...
and from this idea stems the idea of equality... by treating
everyone equally, we limit, as much as we can, this idea
of someone wins and someone loses...

now one might say, that by having winners and losers, we
benefit the society/state.... but that too, is a truth....
please explain how the concept of winners and losers
benefit the state/society?

and I can make an equal and opposite argument... once
again, my argument, as is your argument, is based on one's
own personal truth, not on supportable facts...
facts that can be examined by everyone... now one might say,
and many will say, but Kropotkin, it is obvious, it is a fact
that is supported by common sense.. common sense is simply
another example of truths, not facts...

I personally, believe that we should have justice, equality in
our state and our society.. not just political equality but
social, legal, and economic equality... and that is my truth....
I work for the equality of others... Justice is the virtue that I
follow.. and justice is another word for equality.. to be just
is to be equal....treat everyone equally...

so, should we engage in our practice of creating winners or loser,
or should we engage in the practice of equality? and as just
as important, comes the question of why? why one practice and not
another?

Kropotkin

[commonsense]

If something is factual, it is true (little t) Whether it includes all the facts or not.

[Alexiev]

Emily Dickinson joins the discussion.

Tell all the Truth but tell it slant –
Success in Circuit lies
Too bright for our infirm Delight
The Truth’s superb surprise

As Lightning to the Children eased
With explanation kind
The Truth must dazzle gradually
Or every man be blind –

The Truth, Dickinson seems to say, is blinding, like lightening. We mere humans must approach it obliquely, like Moses seeing God in the burning bush. We cannot look directly at the sun, or at God, or at truth without being blinded. Our fears must be eased, like those of the child frightened by the thunder and lightning.


Stephen Crane approaches the subject:

Truth,” said a traveller,
“Is a rock, a mighty fortress;
“Often have I been to it,
“Even to its highest tower,
“From whence the world looks black.”

“Truth,” said a traveller,
“Is a breath, a wind,
“A shadow, a phantom;
“Long have I pursued it,
“But never have I touched
“The hem of its garment.”

And I believed the second traveller;
For truth was to me
A breath, a wind,
A shadow, a phantom,
And never had I touched
The hem of its garment.

For Crane, Truth is not blinding, but invisible. It cannot be touched, but it must be felt, like a breath of wind. Both poems seem to have a religious sensibility, but Crane's may lampoon the hymnal references "A Mighty Fortress is Our God" and "Rock of Ages".

[commonsense]

Emily Dickinson joins the discussion.

Tell all the Truth but tell it slant –
Success in Circuit lies
Too bright for our infirm Delight
The Truth’s superb surprise

As Lightning to the Children eased
With explanation kind
The Truth must dazzle gradually
Or every man be blind –

The Truth, Dickinson seems to say, is blinding, like lightening. We mere humans must approach it obliquely, like Moses seeing God in the burning bush. We cannot look directly at the sun, or at God, or at truth without being blinded. Our fears must be eased, like those of the child frightened by the thunder and lightning.


Stephen Crane approaches the subject:

Truth,” said a traveller,
“Is a rock, a mighty fortress;
“Often have I been to it,
“Even to its highest tower,
“From whence the world looks black.”

“Truth,” said a traveller,
“Is a breath, a wind,
“A shadow, a phantom;
“Long have I pursued it,
“But never have I touched
“The hem of its garment.”

And I believed the second traveller;
For truth was to me
A breath, a wind,
A shadow, a phantom,
And never had I touched
The hem of its garment.

For Crane, Truth is not blinding, but invisible. It cannot be touched, but it must be felt, like a breath of wind. Both poems seem to have a religious sensibility, but Crane's may lampoon the hymnal references "A Mighty Fortress is Our God" and "Rock of Ages".

Dickinson and Crane notwithstanding, Truth is a concept. truth is a true/false value. And both of these poets are talking about Truth.

The OP at times appears to conflate Truth with truth, but the flavor of it refers to truth and the claim that truth isn’t the same thing as fact.

[Peter Kropotkin]

my point here is that several around here mistake truth with facts..
as I noted, that both Wizard and Age hold that their truths
are facts... Age uses the word indisputable, all the time...
but his/hers/it, belief in ''one mind" is a truth, not a fact,
and Wizard holds that his truth, there is a god, is a universal fact, whereas
it isn't, it is a truth... I am pointing out that many believe that they
hold facts, but in reality, hold truths..
and it is important to work out what is the facts, vs what is the truth...

Kropotkin

[Sculptor]

there is a great deal of confusion about truths and facts...

fact: Abe Lincoln was the 16the president of the US...
that is a fact.. but that fact leaves us with little information
that can impact us.. truth is something different...
Lincoln was the greatest president in American history...
that truth, our truth, collective or individually, is not fact,
it is a personal truth that people believe in.. opinion really...

now some people may believe that Lincoln was the greatest president
in American history and some may believe it is FDR... an argument
can be made for both.. and some hold for Washington to be the
greatest president.. and they could also be right...there is no
factual way to know which of them is the best president in American
history... depending on how you rate it, or set standards for it,
the greatest president could be any of those three or even another
possibility....say Teddy Roosevelt.. personally, I'm a fan of his...
but, hay that's me...

one of the major problems here is that people quite often mistake
their truths/opinions as fact...and fact as truths... I see many an argument
occur around this site due to the mistaken use of fact and truth...
Age and Wizard for example mistake their truths for facts..
a fact like Lincoln was the 16th president... whereas they offer
us only truths, opinions... presented as facts.. for example,
wizard say god is objectively a fact, because he personally
believes in god... a personal truth taken to be a universal fact...
belief in god is always a truth, not a fact...
because it can't be objectively proven, like we can show how Lincoln
was the 16th president.. belief in god is a belief in the possibility
for god, not a certainty for god..

and sometimes we believe so strongly in a truth, that we turn it into
a fact.. and express it as a fact.. but it is really just a strongly held
opinion... and many who have held this truth, that there is a god,
have later changed their mind and decided there is no god...
a truth can change.. whereas facts cannot..

if we hold that there is a god, we can also claim there is no god,
the ''TRUTH'' is flexible like that... but facts, we cannot hold
to our own facts... we cannot claim that Lincoln never existed,
or that Lincoln was in fact the 20th president...
the facts are against us...
facts cannot change, but truths/opinions can...

we all hold to truths... GOP/MAGA party holds that America
is a third world country and only IQ45 can save it....
That is truth, opinion with no basis in facts.....

Liberals/democrats hold that we can always improve our country..
there is some way in which we can improve ourselves and make
this a better country... which really says nothing about
overall state of America, just that we can make things better if
we work for it.... which is why liberal states are talking about or
have already done away with bail in criminal cases... a bail for a
rich person is easy, a few bucks, but making bail for a poor person
can be very hard... I can easily make a thousand dollar bail...
a guy in LA, was imprisoned for months because he didn't have
money for bail... a thousand dollars.. an if he is in jail, how
exactly is he supposed to raise a thousand dollars?
that tells us about the little ways in which we try to improve America....
we can't fix every flaw in American, but we can try to fix the more
egregious ones....

and therein lies some important aspects of this fact vs truths discussion...
that we holding to bails as being a problem is a truth, that to some,
bails should be even higher, again, not a fact, but a truth...

which depends on how one sees the reality around them...
and that is done via truths, not facts... One might see a crime
ridden America, but the fact is that crime has been falling in
America for a couple of years.. this is from the FBI....
so do we hold to the truth/opinion that America is crime ridden,
or do we hold to the fact that crime has been falling in America
for the last few years....

when one holds that America is the greatest country on earth
or IQ45 was the greatest president in US history, or Kropotkin
is an idiot, those are truths, opinions that have no facts supporting
them... but one of the interesting things about truths, is that
they can tell us something that facts cannot....
a truth can led us to other truths, that mean something in our lives...

What can I gain from the fact that the earth is 93 million miles from the sun?
not much really... I have to put that fact into wider context to make
that fact become meaningful... the earth being 93 million miles from
the sun makes the earth be in the ''Goldilock'' zone..
which is to say that the earth in in the habitable zone of a star and
can possibly support life...give context and now the fact of the earth's
distance from the sun can mean something very important.....
that our very existence depends on us being in the Goldilock zone..

so, in many ways, truths say something far more meaningful
and interesting than mere facts....if we say Lincoln was the 16th
president is nowhere as meaningful as saying he was the greatest
American president ever.... a truth, a personal truth can have
more meaning than a fact...because it can say more than what a
mere fact can say... but saying that truth/opinion doesn't make
it a fact.. just an opinion and we need to keep that in mind at
all times... knowing the difference between facts and truths...

Kropotkin..

Truth ??
No one is really interested in the truth.
Aks any American, especailly a black American and they will tell you that AL was the man to whom we own the emancipation of slaves.
But how many really know that AL did not like backs, and did not want them in the US at all.
The big argument of the Civil War was the the South wanted to use slaves to colonise the West, whilst the North did not, and imagined a solonisation of family groups rather than large slave owning plantations on a Feudal system.
As for AL, his idea was to pack then all off back to Africa so that the West would be WHITES ONLY.

And again. Ask any American about the Boston Tea Party and they will tell you that Bostonians objected to a tax on tea.
Utter rubbish. What happened is the the local businesses had started to levy taxes on tea. The British ships coming in were selling TAX FREE tea, and that was what pissed them off. Not an objection to tax but the sale of tax free tea.

There is a whole collection of misunderstandings and falsehoods about American History. Such as the facts around the qwar of 1812. No AMerica did not "win" that one and made series of stupid gaffs along the way, ending in the WHitehouse being burned to the ground.
Many Yanks haven't even heard of it.

Truth that does not equate or agree with facts is just fantasy.

[commonsense]

my point here is that several around here mistake truth with facts..
as I noted, that both Wizard and Age hold that their truths
are facts... Age uses the word indisputable, all the time...
but his/hers/it, belief in ''one mind" is a truth, not a fact,
and Wizard holds that his truth, there is a god, is a universal fact, whereas
it isn't, it is a truth... I am pointing out that many believe that they
hold facts, but in reality, hold truths..
and it is important to work out what is the facts, vs what is the truth...

Kropotkin

Facts and truth appear not to mean the same thing to us. So that I can understand you better, I am including the following links to Merriam-Webster’s online dictionary entries for facts and truth. Please look these over and share which of the many definitions and synonyms are appealing to you. I am doing this not to argue semantics but to prevent arguing semantics. I intend to shift my paradigm to match yours.

definitions for fact
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fact

synonyms for fact
https://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/fact

definitions for truth
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/truth

synonyms for truth
https://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/truth

I look forward to a continuation of our conversation in a civilized manner.

[Alexiev]

Truth ??
No one is really interested in the truth.
Aks any American, especailly a black American and they will tell you that AL was the man to whom we own the emancipation of slaves.
But how many really know that AL did not like backs, and did not want them in the US at all.
The big argument of the Civil War was the the South wanted to use slaves to colonise the West, whilst the North did not, and imagined a solonisation of family groups rather than large slave owning plantations on a Feudal system.
As for AL, his idea was to pack then all off back to Africa so that the West would be WHITES ONLY.

And again. Ask any American about the Boston Tea Party and they will tell you that Bostonians objected to a tax on tea.
Utter rubbish. What happened is the the local businesses had started to levy taxes on tea. The British ships coming in were selling TAX FREE tea, and that was what pissed them off. Not an objection to tax but the sale of tax free tea.

There is a whole collection of misunderstandings and falsehoods about American History. Such as the facts around the qwar of 1812. No AMerica did not "win" that one and made series of stupid gaffs along the way, ending in the WHitehouse being burned to the ground.
Many Yanks haven't even heard of it.

Truth that does not equate or agree with facts is just fantasy.

As usual, Sculptor is trying to prove the claim that "Democrats hate America" (of course he's not a Democrat, and has, thank goodness, abandoned America, but if he still lived here he wouild probably be a Democrat.)

He's certainly correct that most Americans think the Brits levied taxes on tea. In fact, this history webvsite (the first one I looked at) so states:

https://www.history.com/topics/american ... ct-imposed

For Sculptor, only those "facts" which denigrate America and Americans constitute "truth".

Sculptor also thinks that he possesses ESP. allowing him the read the mind of Abraham Lincoln. Every educated American has read the following Lincoln statement, from 1858.

I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality ... I will add to this that I have never seen, to my knowledge, a man, woman, or child who was in favor of producing a perfect equality, social and political, between negroes and white men.

We don't know, though, whether this statement was politically motivated or whether it represented Lincoln's actual opinion. In those racist times, Lincoln had to get elected in order to effect change. IN addition, Lincoln did discuss the possibility of relocating the former slaves. One plan that was discussed was relocation not to Africa (as Sculptor insists) but to Central America. The relocation was not meant to be forced -- it would have been voluntary.

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2 ... entral-am/

As for the war of 1812, all of us Americans are familiar with Johnny Horton, so we know that:

We fired our guns and the British kept a-comin'
There wasn't as many as there was a while ago
We fired once more and they began to runnin'
On down the Mississippi to the Gulf of Mexico

Of course that was after the peace treaty, but those redcoats

..."ran through the briars
And they ran through the brambles
And they ran through the bushes
Where a rabbit couldn't go
They ran so fast
That the hounds couldn't catch 'em
On down the Mississippi to the Gulf of Mexico."

Unfortunately, that victory helped Andrew Jackson eventually become President.

[Sculptor]

Truth ??
No one is really interested in the truth.
Aks any American, especailly a black American and they will tell you that AL was the man to whom we own the emancipation of slaves.
But how many really know that AL did not like backs, and did not want them in the US at all.
The big argument of the Civil War was the the South wanted to use slaves to colonise the West, whilst the North did not, and imagined a solonisation of family groups rather than large slave owning plantations on a Feudal system.
As for AL, his idea was to pack then all off back to Africa so that the West would be WHITES ONLY.

And again. Ask any American about the Boston Tea Party and they will tell you that Bostonians objected to a tax on tea.
Utter rubbish. What happened is the the local businesses had started to levy taxes on tea. The British ships coming in were selling TAX FREE tea, and that was what pissed them off. Not an objection to tax but the sale of tax free tea.

There is a whole collection of misunderstandings and falsehoods about American History. Such as the facts around the qwar of 1812. No AMerica did not "win" that one and made series of stupid gaffs along the way, ending in the WHitehouse being burned to the ground.
Many Yanks haven't even heard of it.

Truth that does not equate or agree with facts is just fantasy.

As usual, Sculptor is trying to prove the claim that "Democrats hate America" (of course he's not a Democrat, and has, thank goodness, abandoned America, but if he still lived here he wouild probably be a Democrat.)

It's pointless bandying words with such an idiot

[Alexiev]

It's pointless bandying words with such an idiot

I know your advice is good, and I should avoid replying to any of your posts. But it's a bit sad (although accurate) that you refer to yourself as "such an idiot".

[Sculptor]

It's pointless bandying words with such an idiot

I know your advice is good, and I should avoid replying to any of your posts. But it's a bit sad (although accurate) that you refer to yourself as "such an idiot".

I'm amazed how you responded by doubling down on your ignorance.