Is Conservatism just NeoTraditionalism these days?

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Consul
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Re: Is Conservatism just NeoTraditionalism these days?

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FlashDangerpants wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2024 6:36 pm I would say that there's fairly widespread use of the term with a big C and I would say that if we wish to have monolithic terms such as "Liberalism", "The Left" and so on, then "Conservatism" should probably qualify with a similar set of caveats to those others. I don't detect excesssive caution in your use of one of those particular terms.
Like liberalism and socialism, conservatism has a "multiple personality"; that is, there are several conservatisms, liberalisms, and socialisms.
In particular, liberalism is not a "monolithic" ideology:
"There is no single, unambiguous thing called liberalism. All the liberalisms that have existed, and that exist, select—deliberately or unconsciously—certain items from an accumulated and crowded liberal repertoire and leave others out, both because some elements are incompatible with others and because intellectual fashions and practices change. As a consequence, a host of belief systems and theories nest under the heading liberalism, none of which can contain all the possibilities—the ideas and the political arrangements—that the term in its maximal but hypothetical fullness can encompass, or that liberal political practices have encompassed over time and across space. Consider for example phrases such as classical liberalism, social liberalism, or neoliberalism: three versions that are still current today. Classical liberalism revolved around individual liberty (the close etymological relation of liberalism), human independence, and the rule of law, and it importantly restricted what states and governments were entitled to do to individuals. Social liberalism—and the new liberalism that emerged in Britain just over a century ago, in tandem with some of its Scandinavian social-democratic counterparts—explored the conditions for individual development and growth, sustained by networks of mutual assistance and interdependence. From that branch of liberalism arose the modern welfare state. However, in a particularly confusing way, ‘neo’ and ‘new’ pull in very different directions. Neoliberalism—a product mainly of the second half of the 20th century—emphasizes the beneficial consequences of competitive markets and personal advancement far more than the general nourishing of human well-being. Its liberal credentials are highly contentious…. Those who think that liberalism is largely about unrestrained private activity and those who believe liberalism is about the reasonable development of individuals in a mutually supporting and project-sharing society do not have too much in common."

(Freeden, Michael. Liberalism: A Very Short Introduction. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2015. pp. 1-2)
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Re: Is Conservatism just NeoTraditionalism these days?

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FlashDangerpants wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2024 6:36 pm I think you are overlooking some stuff there. Certainly it is for radicals (left/right, doesn't really matter) to try and bend history into a deterministic pattern, and apply the Procrustean forces that requires.But Conservatives aren't at some opposite end of the spectrum here, they just like their beer a little weaker.
Well, some conservatives like ideological "strong beer": Historically beginning with Joseph de Maistre (1753-1821), there is a radical, counter-enlightenment strand of conservatism, which is illiberal and anti-democratic (anti-republican, anti-constitutional, anti-parliamentary), or pseudo-democratic (by formally maintaining elections and democratic institutions as a populist facade). This authoritarian conservatism may be called ultraconservatism. It isn't identical with fascist or national-socialist totalitarianism, but they overlap to some extent.
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Re: Is Conservatism just NeoTraditionalism these days?

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Skepdick wrote: Fri Mar 15, 2024 6:21 pm What would you like for dinner? Chicken, chicken, chicken, chicken, chicken or chicken? That's zero variance.
How much freedom would you say you have?
I can choose between having one, two, three, four, five, or six chickens for dinner. Isn't this freedom? :wink:
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Re: Is Conservatism just NeoTraditionalism these days?

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Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2024 5:03 pm So yes, conservatives are harder to locate. No manifesto, only a rather general and foggy ideological basis (you mentioned Burke and Thatcher, but they are very different individuals, obviously, and neither really consolidated a "large-C" Conservatism out of anything), no central authority, no organizing principle, and only a sort of desire to preserve different aspects of the past tie them together at all. The Left is far easier to trace, because it's really only the Left that is committed to a single core ideology, rather than to a mere general impulse.
So far, so good?
Well, conservatism is often described as pragmatic or "unideological", eschewing "the politics of principle" with its dogmatic reliance on abstract theory and ideals. However, although there may be no conservative Marx, conservatism isn't just an atheoretical attitude or stance. It does have its own theorists (philosophers) such as Edmund Burke (1729-1797), the founding father of modern conservatism—whose book Reflections on the Revolution in France (1790) is a central, groundbreaking text in the history of conservatism.

As for conservative manifestos, the following by Russell Kirk (1918-1994) looks like one:
"For the conservative, custom, convention, constitution, and prescription are the sources of a tolerable civil social order. Men not being angels, a terrestrial paradise cannot be contrived by metaphysical enthusiasts; yet an earthly hell can be arranged readily enough by ideologues of one stamp or another. Precisely that has come to pass in a great part of the world, during the twentieth century. To general principles in politics—as distinguished from fanatic ideological dogmata—the conservative subscribes. These are principles arrived at by convention and compromise, for the most part, and tested by long experience. Yet these general principles must be applied variously and with prudence, humankind’s circumstances differing much from land to land or age to age. The conservative refuses to accept utopian politics as a substitute for religion. (In Eric Voegelin’s phrase, the ideologue immanentizes the religious symbols of transcendence.) The Conservative Mind in part treats of such general principles; but it does not point the way to Zion."

(Kirk, Russell. The Conservative Mind: From Burke to Eliot. 7th rev. ed. Washington: Regnery Publishing, 1986. pp. xv-xvi)

"I think that there are six canons of conservative thought—

(1) Belief in a transcendent order, or body of natural law, which rules society as well as conscience. Political problems, at bottom, are religious and moral problems. A narrow rationality, what Coleridge called the Understanding, cannot of itself satisfy human needs. ‘‘Every Tory is a realist,’’ says Keith Feiling: ‘‘he knows that there are great forces in heaven and earth that man’s philosophy cannot plumb or fathom.’’ True politics is the art of apprehending and applying the Justice which ought to prevail in a community of souls.

(2) Affection for the proliferating variety and mystery of human existence, as opposed to the narrowing uniformity, egalitarianism, and utilitarian aims of most radical systems; conservatives resist what Robert Graves calls ‘‘Logicalism’’ in society. This prejudice has been called ‘‘the conservatism of enjoyment’’—a sense that life is worth living, according to Walter Bagehot ‘‘the proper source of an animated Conservatism.”

(3) Conviction that civilized society requires orders and classes, as against the notion of a ‘‘classless society.’’ With reason, conservatives often have been called ‘‘the party of order.’’ If natural distinctions are effaced among men, oligarchs fill the vacuum. Ultimate equality in the judgment of God, and equality before courts of law, are recognized by conservatives; but equality of condition, they think, means equality in servitude and boredom.

(4) Persuasion that freedom and property are closely linked: separate property from private possession, and Leviathan becomes master of all. Economic levelling, they maintain, is not economic progress.

(5) Faith in prescription and distrust of ‘‘sophisters, calculators, and economists’’ who would reconstruct society upon abstract designs. Custom, convention, and old prescription are checks both upon man’s anarchic impulse and upon the innovator’s lust for power.

(6) Recognition that change may not be salutary reform: hasty innovation may be a devouring conflagration, rather than a torch of progress. Society must alter, for prudent change is the means of social preservation; but a statesman must take Providence into his calculations, and a statesman’s chief virtue, according to Plato and Burke, is prudence.

Various deviations from this body of opinion have occurred, and there are numerous appendages to it; but in general conservatives have adhered to these convictions or sentiments with some consistency, for two centuries. To catalogue the principles of their opponents is more difficult. At least five major schools of radical thought have competed for public favor since Burke entered politics: the rationalism of the philosophes, the romantic emancipation of Rousseau and his allies, the utilitarianism of the Benthamites, the positivism of Comte’s school, and the collectivistic materialism of Marx and other socialists. This list leaves out of account those scientific doctrines, Darwinism chief among them, which have done so much to undermine the first principles of a conservative order. To express these several radicalisms in terms of a common denominator probably is presumptuous, foreign to the philosophical tenets of conservatism. All the same, in a hastily generalizing fashion one may say that radicalism since 1790 has tended to attack the prescriptive arrangement of society on the following grounds—

(1) The perfectibility of man and the illimitable progress of society: meliorism. Radicals believe that education, positive legislation, and alteration of environment can produce men like gods; they deny that humanity has a natural proclivity toward violence and sin.

(2) Contempt for tradition. Reason, impulse, and materialistic determinism are severally preferred as guides to social welfare, trustier than the wisdom of our ancestors. Formal religion is rejected and various ideologies are presented as substitutes.

(3) Political levelling. Order and privilege are condemned; total democracy, as direct as practicable, is the professed radical ideal. Allied with this spirit, generally, is a dislike of old parliamentary arrangements and an eagerness for centralization and consolidation.

(4) Economic levelling. The ancient rights of property, especially property in land, are suspect to almost all radicals; and collectivistic reformers hack at the institution of private property root and branch.

As a fifth point, one might try to define a common radical view of the state’s function; but here the chasm of opinion between the chief schools of innovation is too deep for any satisfactory generalization. One can only remark that radicals unite in detesting Burke’s description of the state as ordained of God, and his concept of society as joined in perpetuity by a moral bond among the dead, the living, and those yet to be born—the community of souls.

So much for preliminary delineation. The radical, when all is said, is a neoterist, in love with change; the conservative, a man who says with Joubert, Ce sont les crampons qui unissent une génération à une autre—these ancient institutions of politics and religion. Conservez ce qu’ont vu vos pères. If one seeks by way of definition more than this, the sooner he turns to particular thinkers, the safer ground he is on. In the following chapters, the conservative is described as statesman, as critic, as metaphysician, as man of letters. Men of imagination, rather than party leaders, determine the ultimate course of things, as Napoleon knew; and I have chosen my conservatives accordingly. There are some conservative thinkers—Lord Salisbury and Justice Story, for instance—about whom I would have liked to write more; some interesting disciples of Burke, among them Arnold, Morley, and Bryce, I have omitted because they were not regular conservatives. But the main stream of conservative ideas is followed from 1790 to 1986. In a revolutionary epoch, sometimes men taste every novelty, sicken of them all, and return to ancient principles so long disused that they seem refreshingly hearty when they are rediscovered. History often appears to resemble a roulette wheel; there is truth in the old Greek idea of cycles, and round again may come the number which signifies a conservative order. One of those flaming clouds which we deny to the Deity but arrogate to our own employment may erase our present elaborate constructions so abruptly as the tocsin in the Faubourg St. Germain terminated an age equally tired of itself. Yet this roulette-wheel simile would be repugnant to Burke (or to John Adams), who knew history to be the unfolding of a Design. The true conservative thinks of this process, which looks like chance or fate, as, rather, the providential operation of a moral law of polarity. And Burke, could he see our century, never would concede that a consumption-society, so near to suicide, is the end for which Providence has prepared man. If a conservative order is indeed to return, we ought to know the tradition which is attached to it, so that we may rebuild society; if it is not to be restored, still we ought to understand conservative ideas so that we may rake from the ashes what scorched fragments of civilization escape the conflagration of unchecked will and appetite. "

(Kirk, Russell. The Conservative Mind: From Burke to Eliot. 7th rev. ed. Washington: Regnery Publishing, 1986. pp. 8-11)
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Re: Is Conservatism just NeoTraditionalism these days?

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Re: Is Conservatism just NeoTraditionalism these days?

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Consul wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2024 11:10 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2024 5:03 pm So yes, conservatives are harder to locate. No manifesto, only a rather general and foggy ideological basis (you mentioned Burke and Thatcher, but they are very different individuals, obviously, and neither really consolidated a "large-C" Conservatism out of anything), no central authority, no organizing principle, and only a sort of desire to preserve different aspects of the past tie them together at all. The Left is far easier to trace, because it's really only the Left that is committed to a single core ideology, rather than to a mere general impulse.
So far, so good?
Well, conservatism is often described as pragmatic or "unideological", eschewing "the politics of principle" with its dogmatic reliance on abstract theory and ideals. However, although there may be no conservative Marx, conservatism isn't just an atheoretical attitude or stance. It does have its own theorists (philosophers) such as Edmund Burke (1729-1797), the founding father of modern conservatism—whose book Reflections on the Revolution in France (1790) is a central, groundbreaking text in the history of conservatism.

As for conservative manifestos, the following by Russell Kirk (1918-1994) looks like one:
"For the conservative, custom, convention, constitution, and prescription are the sources of a tolerable civil social order. Men not being angels, a terrestrial paradise cannot be contrived by metaphysical enthusiasts; yet an earthly hell can be arranged readily enough by ideologues of one stamp or another. Precisely that has come to pass in a great part of the world, during the twentieth century. To general principles in politics—as distinguished from fanatic ideological dogmata—the conservative subscribes. These are principles arrived at by convention and compromise, for the most part, and tested by long experience. Yet these general principles must be applied variously and with prudence, humankind’s circumstances differing much from land to land or age to age. The conservative refuses to accept utopian politics as a substitute for religion. (In Eric Voegelin’s phrase, the ideologue immanentizes the religious symbols of transcendence.) The Conservative Mind in part treats of such general principles; but it does not point the way to Zion."

(Kirk, Russell. The Conservative Mind: From Burke to Eliot. 7th rev. ed. Washington: Regnery Publishing, 1986. pp. xv-xvi)

"I think that there are six canons of conservative thought—

(1) Belief in a transcendent order, or body of natural law, which rules society as well as conscience. Political problems, at bottom, are religious and moral problems. A narrow rationality, what Coleridge called the Understanding, cannot of itself satisfy human needs. ‘‘Every Tory is a realist,’’ says Keith Feiling: ‘‘he knows that there are great forces in heaven and earth that man’s philosophy cannot plumb or fathom.’’ True politics is the art of apprehending and applying the Justice which ought to prevail in a community of souls.

(2) Affection for the proliferating variety and mystery of human existence, as opposed to the narrowing uniformity, egalitarianism, and utilitarian aims of most radical systems; conservatives resist what Robert Graves calls ‘‘Logicalism’’ in society. This prejudice has been called ‘‘the conservatism of enjoyment’’—a sense that life is worth living, according to Walter Bagehot ‘‘the proper source of an animated Conservatism.”

(3) Conviction that civilized society requires orders and classes, as against the notion of a ‘‘classless society.’’ With reason, conservatives often have been called ‘‘the party of order.’’ If natural distinctions are effaced among men, oligarchs fill the vacuum. Ultimate equality in the judgment of God, and equality before courts of law, are recognized by conservatives; but equality of condition, they think, means equality in servitude and boredom.

(4) Persuasion that freedom and property are closely linked: separate property from private possession, and Leviathan becomes master of all. Economic levelling, they maintain, is not economic progress.

(5) Faith in prescription and distrust of ‘‘sophisters, calculators, and economists’’ who would reconstruct society upon abstract designs. Custom, convention, and old prescription are checks both upon man’s anarchic impulse and upon the innovator’s lust for power.

(6) Recognition that change may not be salutary reform: hasty innovation may be a devouring conflagration, rather than a torch of progress. Society must alter, for prudent change is the means of social preservation; but a statesman must take Providence into his calculations, and a statesman’s chief virtue, according to Plato and Burke, is prudence.

Various deviations from this body of opinion have occurred, and there are numerous appendages to it; but in general conservatives have adhered to these convictions or sentiments with some consistency, for two centuries. To catalogue the principles of their opponents is more difficult. At least five major schools of radical thought have competed for public favor since Burke entered politics: the rationalism of the philosophes, the romantic emancipation of Rousseau and his allies, the utilitarianism of the Benthamites, the positivism of Comte’s school, and the collectivistic materialism of Marx and other socialists. This list leaves out of account those scientific doctrines, Darwinism chief among them, which have done so much to undermine the first principles of a conservative order. To express these several radicalisms in terms of a common denominator probably is presumptuous, foreign to the philosophical tenets of conservatism. All the same, in a hastily generalizing fashion one may say that radicalism since 1790 has tended to attack the prescriptive arrangement of society on the following grounds—

(1) The perfectibility of man and the illimitable progress of society: meliorism. Radicals believe that education, positive legislation, and alteration of environment can produce men like gods; they deny that humanity has a natural proclivity toward violence and sin.

(2) Contempt for tradition. Reason, impulse, and materialistic determinism are severally preferred as guides to social welfare, trustier than the wisdom of our ancestors. Formal religion is rejected and various ideologies are presented as substitutes.

(3) Political levelling. Order and privilege are condemned; total democracy, as direct as practicable, is the professed radical ideal. Allied with this spirit, generally, is a dislike of old parliamentary arrangements and an eagerness for centralization and consolidation.

(4) Economic levelling. The ancient rights of property, especially property in land, are suspect to almost all radicals; and collectivistic reformers hack at the institution of private property root and branch.

As a fifth point, one might try to define a common radical view of the state’s function; but here the chasm of opinion between the chief schools of innovation is too deep for any satisfactory generalization. One can only remark that radicals unite in detesting Burke’s description of the state as ordained of God, and his concept of society as joined in perpetuity by a moral bond among the dead, the living, and those yet to be born—the community of souls.

So much for preliminary delineation. The radical, when all is said, is a neoterist, in love with change; the conservative, a man who says with Joubert, Ce sont les crampons qui unissent une génération à une autre—these ancient institutions of politics and religion. Conservez ce qu’ont vu vos pères. If one seeks by way of definition more than this, the sooner he turns to particular thinkers, the safer ground he is on. In the following chapters, the conservative is described as statesman, as critic, as metaphysician, as man of letters. Men of imagination, rather than party leaders, determine the ultimate course of things, as Napoleon knew; and I have chosen my conservatives accordingly. There are some conservative thinkers—Lord Salisbury and Justice Story, for instance—about whom I would have liked to write more; some interesting disciples of Burke, among them Arnold, Morley, and Bryce, I have omitted because they were not regular conservatives. But the main stream of conservative ideas is followed from 1790 to 1986. In a revolutionary epoch, sometimes men taste every novelty, sicken of them all, and return to ancient principles so long disused that they seem refreshingly hearty when they are rediscovered. History often appears to resemble a roulette wheel; there is truth in the old Greek idea of cycles, and round again may come the number which signifies a conservative order. One of those flaming clouds which we deny to the Deity but arrogate to our own employment may erase our present elaborate constructions so abruptly as the tocsin in the Faubourg St. Germain terminated an age equally tired of itself. Yet this roulette-wheel simile would be repugnant to Burke (or to John Adams), who knew history to be the unfolding of a Design. The true conservative thinks of this process, which looks like chance or fate, as, rather, the providential operation of a moral law of polarity. And Burke, could he see our century, never would concede that a consumption-society, so near to suicide, is the end for which Providence has prepared man. If a conservative order is indeed to return, we ought to know the tradition which is attached to it, so that we may rebuild society; if it is not to be restored, still we ought to understand conservative ideas so that we may rake from the ashes what scorched fragments of civilization escape the conflagration of unchecked will and appetite. "

(Kirk, Russell. The Conservative Mind: From Burke to Eliot. 7th rev. ed. Washington: Regnery Publishing, 1986. pp. 8-11)
Thanks for that. It's very interesting and relevant to the point.

I think that one of the key statements in it is this: "To general principles in politics—as distinguished from fanatic ideological dogmata—the conservative subscribes." That is correct. Neither Burke, nor Smith, nor somebody later, like Rand or Scruton, serves the role that a Marx or a Gramsci serves in Leftism. Conservatism really has no saints, idols and heroes. And there isn't a love of ideology in the conservative inclination: rather, there's the general intention toward preserving the achievements of man against foolish and radical attempts to reconstruct society according to some ideological plan. And behind that is a sage mistrust of other human beings, a realization that men are not just good and fair, but are also sometimes bad, and that the propensity for both exists in everybody. Hence, the conservative love for checks-and-balances, and its warranted suspicion of big government and centrist social planning.

Good insights.
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Re: Is Conservatism just NeoTraditionalism these days?

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Here's another example of a conservative manifesto, one written by Irving Kristol (1920-2009):
"Let me see, therefore, if I can briefly outline the substance beneath the label ["neoconservative"], the vague consensus that seems to affiliate men and women who are frequently not even aware that they are part of a tendency, much less a neoconservative one. It’s a real enough thing we are talking about; I am not disputing that. But, at the moment, it needs describing more than it needs naming.

1. Neoconservatism is not at all hostile to the idea of a welfare state, but it is critical of the Great Society version of this welfare state. In general, it approves of those social reforms that, while providing needed security and comfort to the individual in our dynamic, urbanized society, do so with a minimum of bureaucratic intrusion in the individual’s affairs. Such reforms would include, of course, social security, unemployment insurance, some form of national health insurance, some kind of family assistance plan, etc. In contrast, it is skeptical of those social programs that create vast and energetic bureaucracies to “solve social problems.” In short, while being for the welfare state, it is opposed to the paternalistic state. It also believes that this welfare state will best promote the common good if it is conceived in such a way as not to go bankrupt.

2. Neoconservatism has great respect—it is fair to say it has learned to have great respect—for the power of the market to respond efficiently to economic realities while preserving the maximum degree of individual freedom. Though willing to interfere with the market for overriding social purposes, it prefers to do so by “rigging” the market, or even creating new markets, rather than by direct bureaucratic controls. Thus it is more likely to favor housing vouchers for the poor than government-built low-income projects.

3. Neoconservatism tends to be respectful of traditional values and institutions: religion, the family, the “high culture” of Western civilization. If there is any one thing that neoconservatives are unanimous about, it is their dislike of the “counterculture” that has played so remarkable a role in American life over these past fifteen years. Neoconservatives are well aware that traditional values and institutions do change in time, but they prefer that such change be gradual and organic. They believe that the individual who is abruptly “liberated” from the sovereignty of traditional values will soon find himself experiencing the vertigo and despair of nihilism. Nor do they put much credence in the notion that individuals can “create” their own values and then incorporate them into a satisfying “lifestyle.” Values emerge out of the experience of generations and represent the accumulated wisdom of these generations; they simply cannot be got out of rap sessions about “identity” or “authenticity.”

4. Neoconservatism affirms the traditional American idea of equality, but rejects egalitarianism—the equality of condition for all citizens—as a proper goal for government to pursue. The equality proclaimed by the Declaration of Independence is an equality of natural rights, including the right to become unequal (within limits) in wealth, or public esteem, or influence. Without that right, equality becomes the enemy of liberty. To put it in more homely terms: the encouragement of equality of opportunity is always a proper concern of democratic government. But it is a dangerous sophistry to insist that there is no true equality of opportunity unless and until everyone ends up with equal shares of everything.

5. In foreign policy, neoconservatism believes that American democracy is not likely to survive for long in a world that is overwhelmingly hostile to American values, if only because our transactions (economic and diplomatic) with other nations are bound eventually to have a profound impact on our own domestic economic and political system. So neoconservatives are critical of the post-Vietnam isolationism now so popular in Congress, and many are suspicious of “détente” as well. On specific issues of foreign policy, however, the neoconservative consensus is a weak one. In the case of Vietnam, neoconservatives went every which way.

So there it is—oversimplified but not, I think, distorted. Not all neoconservatives will accept all of those tenets; but most will accept most of them. Is neoconservatism the right label for this constellation of attitudes? I don’t mind it. But then, if the political spectrum moved rightward and we should become “neoliberal” tomorrow, I could accept that too. As a matter of fact, I wouldn’t be too surprised if just that happened."

(Kristol, Irving. "What Is a 'Neoconservative'?" 1976. In The Neoconservative Persuasion: Selected Essays 1942–2009, edited by Gertrude Himmelfarb, 148-150. New York: Basic Books, 2011. pp. 148-50)
"Neoconservatism emerged in the USA in the 1970s as a backlash against the ideas and values of the 1960s. It was defined by a fear of social fragmentation or breakdown, which was seen as a product of liberal reform and the spread of ‘permissiveness ’. In sharp contrast to neoliberalism, neoconservatives stress the primacy of politics and seek to strengthen leadership and authority in society. This emphasis on authority, allied to a heightened sensitivity to the fragility of society, demonstrates that neoconservatism has its roots in traditional or organic conservatism. However, it differs markedly from paternalistic conservatism, which also draws heavily on organic ideas. Whereas paternalistic conservatives believe, for instance, that community is best maintained by social reform and the reduction of poverty, neoconservative look to strengthen community by restoring authority and imposing social discipline. Neoconservative authoritarianism is, to this extent, consistent with neoliberal libertarianism. Both of them accept the rolling back of the state’s economic responsibilities

Neoconservatism refers to developments within conservative ideology that relate to both domestic policy and foreign policy. In domestic policy, neoconservatism is defined by support for a minimal but strong state, fusing themes associated with traditional or organic conservatism with an acceptance of economic individualism and qualified support for the free market. Neoconservatives have typically sought to restore public order, strengthen ‘family’ or ‘religious’ values, and bolster national identity. In foreign policy, neoconservatism was closely associated with the Bush administration in the USA in the years following 9/11. Its central aim was to preserve and reinforce what was seen as the USA’s ‘benevolent global hegemony’ by building up US military power and pursuing a policy of worldwide ‘democracy promotion’."

(Heywood, Andrew. Political Ideologies: An Introduction. 7th ed. London: Red Globe/Macmillan, 2021. p. 67)
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Re: Is Conservatism just NeoTraditionalism these days?

Post by Consul »

Consul wrote: Fri Mar 15, 2024 5:56 am
Sculptor wrote: Mon Mar 11, 2024 7:30 pm Conservativism is a generlised resistence to any kind of change - traditions are but one aspect.
Conservatives don't like radical, revolutionary changes; but it's a mistake to equate conservative politics with a come-what-may freezing of the status quo.
"The desire to conserve is compatible with all manner of change, provided only that change is also continuity."

(Scruton, Roger. The Meaning of Conservatism. 3rd ed. Basingstoke: Palgrave Macmillan, 2001. p. 11)

"Conservatives are not reactionaries. As [Edmund] Burke said, ‘we must reform in order to conserve’, or, in more modern idiom: we must adapt. But we adapt to change in the name of continuity, in order to conserve what we are and what we have."

(Scruton, Roger. Conservatism: An Invitation to the Great Tradition. New York: All Points Books, 2018. p. 3)
Klaus Epstein distinguishes between three types of conservatism:
1. status-quo conservatism ("stative conservatism")
2. reform conservatism ("adaptive conservatism")
3. reactionary conservatism ("restorative conservatism"—which isn't literally conservative, since it doesn't want to conserve the present state of things, but to restore a past one)

One could add:
4. paternalistic or noblesse-oblige conservatism
5. libertarian or laisser-faire conservatism (with regard to the economy and the role of the state)
6. authoritarian or law-and-order conservatism
"Three major types of Conservatives can be identified in the period following the emergence of self-conscious Conservatism around 1770. They are all confronted by the advance of modern forces outlined above: they all deplore that the institutions, conditions, and principles of the ancien régime are placed on the defensive. The three types, which will be labeled Defenders of the Status Quo, Reform Conservatives, and Reactionaries, constitute three different responses to this common challenge. Each is characterized by a distinct outlook and a special set of problems. The three will be initially characterized as "ideal types"; the reader must remember, however, that the real Conservatives dealt with in the various chapters of this book are frequently mixed breeds that do not conform to these stereotypes. Nevertheless, an analysis of these types has value in pointing up the difficulties and dilemmas encountered by Conservatism in its various forms.
The first type is the Defender of the Status Quo. He is fundamentally contented with the world, whereas the Reform Conservative is restless and the Reactionary, embittered."

(Epstein, Klaus. The Genesis of German Conservatism. Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press, 1966. p. 7)
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Re: Is Conservatism just NeoTraditionalism these days?

Post by Gary Childress »

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2024 11:28 pm I think that one of the key statements in it is this: "To general principles in politics—as distinguished from fanatic ideological dogmata—the conservative subscribes." That is correct. Neither Burke, nor Smith, nor somebody later, like Rand or Scruton, serves the role that a Marx or a Gramsci serves in Leftism. Conservatism really has no saints, idols and heroes. And there isn't a love of ideology in the conservative inclination: rather, there's the general intention toward preserving the achievements of man against foolish and radical attempts to reconstruct society according to some ideological plan. And behind that is a sage mistrust of other human beings, a realization that men are not just good and fair, but are also sometimes bad, and that the propensity for both exists in everybody. Hence, the conservative love for checks-and-balances, and its warranted suspicion of big government and centrist social planning.

Good insights.
That might be a fundamental difference of "liberalism" vs "conservatism". As a term, my understanding is that liberal gets its root from Latin "liber" meaning "free" (to be distinguished from the Latin homonym "liber" meaning "book"). whereas conservatism draws its root from cōnservō (“to preserve”). It's an interesting dichotomy, a bit like "pro-life" versus "pro-choice" within the abortion debate, they are fundamentally opposites and yet they both have their rational motives, I think.

I think liberals perhaps tend to stress personal freedom a bit more, possibly too much so in some ways. It seems like Conservatives tend to hold a little tighter to cultural traditions and roles. So "deviation" is maybe more a concern for conservatism than liberalism.

I suppose as kind of the odd man out, I tend to identify more with liberalism.
Wizard22
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Re: Is Conservatism just NeoTraditionalism these days?

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Responding to a Dpants thread is like swimming in a cesspool, *sigh*

[ Puts on his hazmat suit... ]

Gary Childress wrote: Wed Mar 20, 2024 1:20 amThat might be a fundamental difference of "liberalism" vs "conservatism". As a term, my understanding is that liberal gets its root from Latin "liber" meaning "free" (to be distinguished from the Latin homonym "liber" meaning "book"). whereas conservatism draws its root from cōnservō (“to preserve”). It's an interesting dichotomy, a bit like "pro-life" versus "pro-choice" within the abortion debate, they are fundamentally opposites and yet they both have their rational motives, I think.

I think liberals perhaps tend to stress personal freedom a bit more, possibly too much so in some ways. It seems like Conservatives tend to hold a little tighter to cultural traditions and roles. So "deviation" is maybe more a concern for conservatism than liberalism.

I suppose as kind of the odd man out, I tend to identify more with liberalism.
Good points Gary...

Your definitions inspired some more thought about the Liberal-Conservative distinction. I've heard it argued from Liberals that Conservatism is not "mutually-exclusive", because it is within the "personal choice" of a person to Act-conservatively, without disputing or contradicting Liberal ideologies. But I think that's a flawed argument and mindset, because 'Liberalism' falls-apart immediately in a Society, when there is more than 'One' person. Because more than one person clearly limits the Rights of others. In other words, "Human Rights" are at odds, by how individuals conflict one-another.

There's not enough resources. There's not enough food. There's not enough air. There's not enough fuel. There's not enough focus/nurturing/education/etc.

Therefore, the world's Resources and Power must be divvied up. And this is where the 'Liberal' cannot be "liberal" anymore, and are forced into Conservatism.



Liberalism, therefore, leads to "Individualist" mentalities and Solipsistic ideologies—because they are eventually forced into a corner, when it comes to "defending" (ie. Attacking) other people's hypothetical "Human Rights".

Because Liberals are put in a position, where they must identify how much resources they-themselves "Deserve", versus everybody else.

So it becomes: Individual vs society.
Gary Childress
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Re: Is Conservatism just NeoTraditionalism these days?

Post by Gary Childress »

Wizard22 wrote: Wed Mar 20, 2024 1:43 am Responding to a Dpants thread is like swimming in a cesspool, *sigh*

[ Puts on his hazmat suit... ]

Gary Childress wrote: Wed Mar 20, 2024 1:20 amThat might be a fundamental difference of "liberalism" vs "conservatism". As a term, my understanding is that liberal gets its root from Latin "liber" meaning "free" (to be distinguished from the Latin homonym "liber" meaning "book"). whereas conservatism draws its root from cōnservō (“to preserve”). It's an interesting dichotomy, a bit like "pro-life" versus "pro-choice" within the abortion debate, they are fundamentally opposites and yet they both have their rational motives, I think.

I think liberals perhaps tend to stress personal freedom a bit more, possibly too much so in some ways. It seems like Conservatives tend to hold a little tighter to cultural traditions and roles. So "deviation" is maybe more a concern for conservatism than liberalism.

I suppose as kind of the odd man out, I tend to identify more with liberalism.
Good points Gary...

Your definitions inspired some more thought about the Liberal-Conservative distinction. I've heard it argued from Liberals that Conservatism is not "mutually-exclusive", because it is within the "personal choice" of a person to Act-conservatively, without disputing or contradicting Liberal ideologies. But I think that's a flawed argument and mindset, because 'Liberalism' falls-apart immediately in a Society, when there is more than 'One' person. Because more than one person clearly limits the Rights of others. In other words, "Human Rights" are at odds, by how individuals conflict one-another.

There's not enough resources. There's not enough food. There's not enough air. There's not enough fuel. There's not enough focus/nurturing/education/etc.

Therefore, the world's Resources and Power must be divvied up. And this is where the 'Liberal' cannot be "liberal" anymore, and are forced into Conservatism.



Liberalism, therefore, leads to "Individualist" mentalities and Solipsistic ideologies—because they are eventually forced into a corner, when it comes to "defending" (ie. Attacking) other people's hypothetical "Human Rights".

Because Liberals are put in a position, where they must identify how much resources they-themselves "Deserve", versus everybody else.

So it becomes: Individual vs society.
It's easily possible that liberalism can be overstressed to the point where freedom becomes absurd. However, I think preservation can overextend itself as well to the point where it can be somewhat socially constricting. Perhaps it takes both kinds.
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Re: Is Conservatism just NeoTraditionalism these days?

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Gary Childress wrote: Wed Mar 20, 2024 1:51 amIt's easily possible that liberalism can be overstressed to the point where freedom becomes absurd. However, I think preservation can overextend itself as well to the point where it can be somewhat socially constricting. Perhaps it takes both kinds.
No, Gary, my argument is way, way further than that...it's metaphysical even.

I think, that in order to preserve the "Individual-Self", "Liberalism" is willing to set the world on fire.

It becomes Absolute Selfishness, that, "my life is worth sacrificing the entire world!"



That's what I mean by how far it goes down the 'Solipsistic' Individualistic black hole vortex, into The Void.

That's also why I believe, ultimately, Liberalism and Conservatism, like Individual and Society, are mutually-exclusive.

You have to balance them, or be destroyed by either Extremity.
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Re: Is Conservatism just NeoTraditionalism these days?

Post by Gary Childress »

Wizard22 wrote: Wed Mar 20, 2024 1:54 am
Gary Childress wrote: Wed Mar 20, 2024 1:51 amIt's easily possible that liberalism can be overstressed to the point where freedom becomes absurd. However, I think preservation can overextend itself as well to the point where it can be somewhat socially constricting. Perhaps it takes both kinds.
No, Gary, my argument is way, way further than that...it's metaphysical even.

I think, that in order to preserve the "Individual-Self", "Liberalism" is willing to set the world on fire.

It becomes Absolute Selfishness, that, "my life is worth sacrificing the entire world!"



That's what I mean by how far it goes down the 'Solipsistic' Individualistic black hole vortex, into The Void.

That's also why I believe, ultimately, Liberalism and Conservatism, like Individual and Society, are mutually-exclusive.

You have to balance them, or be destroyed by either Extremity.
Well, I'm not sure if I agree with all that, but I suppose I can see where you might have those impressions.
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Re: Is Conservatism just NeoTraditionalism these days?

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Well, what is Liberalism except Liberating your Self at its most craven, wanton, and envious desires???

Is it not, "unlocking the Beast within?" or that "all selfish desires manifest?"
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Re: Is Conservatism just NeoTraditionalism these days?

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Gary Childress wrote: Wed Mar 20, 2024 1:20 am That might be a fundamental difference of "liberalism" vs "conservatism". As a term, my understanding is that liberal gets its root from Latin "liber" meaning "free" (to be distinguished from the Latin homonym "liber" meaning "book"). whereas conservatism draws its root from cōnservō (“to preserve”). It's an interesting dichotomy, a bit like "pro-life" versus "pro-choice" within the abortion debate, they are fundamentally opposites and yet they both have their rational motives, I think.
"Liberalism" has today become another tricky word, though. It used to be associated with what is now called "Classical Liberalism," emphasizing the rights and freedoms of the individual. You can see this in the American Constitution, for example: once regarded as a liberal document (certainly not a monarchist one), it is today hated by the Left, and the rights it describes are frequently denied by those whose desire is to foment a more Socialist future.

Individual rights are now an important dividing line. Only conservatives seem to want to keep them: the Left is campaigning instead for a very fictive idea indeed, called "group rights." Whereas conservatives believe rights inhere in the individual, the Socialist Left subordinates all individuals to their group identity, and gives the group's interests priority over the rights of any individual within the group, and certainly any outside of the group. The universal human rights with which the Declaration of Independence begins are not something the Left believes in at all...not any right to life, to liberty or to property. Moreover, the Constitutional right to free speech, or to defense of property, or to freedom of association, are all denied by the contemporary Left, which is devoted to "making plans for Nigel," so to speak, rather than to "Nigel's" personal freedom.

You might be a Classical Liberal, Gary...unless you advocate Socialism, in which case you're not a Classical Liberal but something like a Neo-Marxist of one or another stripe. But I think you're not quite decided on that, unless I miss my guess.
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