----> RANDOM BOLLOCKS THREAD <---

[Age]

P1: Increasingly intelligent life forms demand more energy as resources diminish (entropy increases).

Which resources are diminishing and what makes you think that?

P2: To sustain their existence, life must interface with a super-efficient state within a simulated world.

Maybe intelligent life forms are just becoming aware of greater/broader levels. Maybe what you imagine as 'simulation' is just a human-contrived state that intelligent life forms are generating and passing through.

C: Whether in a simulated reality or a divinely structured one, the existence of a controlling entity, 'God' or 'God,' is inevitable, operating as an A.I. orchestrating our existence.

This is what you imagine... but human 'conclusions' are limited by human understanding and perception.

Concepts of time and entities and control... are components of human story-making, yes? What if we are just awareness moving through fields? Fields of varying density. And there is no more control or meaning than what is contained in a wind that moves across a meadow.

AND, what IF there IS NOT?

Does it bother you to think that there is no one at a helm? Or to think that there is no helm?

Does it bother you that "others" are becoming, or have already become, MORE AWARE and think, or even KNOW, that there IS One so-called 'at the helm'?

Or, does it bother you to think that there IS One, 'at the helm'? Or to think that there IS One, 'at the helm'?

Whatever there 'is', is most likely not defined by or limited to human concepts at all.

Nor would 'what, there, IS' be, necessarily, DEFINED, nor LIMITED, BY 'your' OWN BELIEF/S nor 'your' OWN 'human concepts' here "lacewing", NEITHER.

How can we not realize how incredibly limited and dense and physical/material we are...

BELIEVING that 'you', people, ARE 'physical/material', just SHOWS how MUCH 'these ones' had NOT YET REALIZED.

One could even ALSO ASK, ALSO CONDESCENDINGLY, 'How can we not realize ...[ANY 'thing']?' AS WELL. BUT DOING SO would just be IDIOTIC and RIDICULOUS. ASKING "your" OWN 'self', 'How can 'i' NOT realize how incredibly limited and dense and 'physical/material 'i' am?' IS, essentially, EXACTLY what 'you' ARE ASKING here "lacewing".

and how all of our creations and imaginings are of 'that world'?

If 'that' is what ALL OF 'your' creations and imaginings ARE "lacewing", then there IS NO WONDER WHY 'you' HAVE A VERY LIMITED VIEW and PERSPECTIVE here.

Instead of imposing our human concepts beyond ourselves -- which only results in imaginatively extending and amplifying our illusions -- what if we consider the 'removal' of human concepts, noise, and density, as much as possible, to see what that feels like?

THEN 'we' CAN 'feel' what 'that' IS like, while 'we' can ALSO 'see' what 'that' 'feels' like. But, THEN 'so what'?

AFTER 'we' have ALREADY DONE 'this', THEN what do 'you' PROPOSE 'we' DO.

Also, have 'you' REALLY NOT YET NOTICED, NOR BECOME AWARE here, YET, that 'you' ARE just IMPOSING 'your' OWN 'human concepts' ONTO "others"?

When I've practiced this, all of the 'why's' disappear.

If 'you' do NOT WANT TO FIND ANSWERS to 'WHY'S', then so be it. But, OBVIOUSLY, NOT ALL WANT TO have 'your' OWN 'human concepts and/or human wants' IMPOSED UP ON 'them'.

Have 'you' CONSIDERED REMOVING, or NOT IMPOSING, 'your' 'human concepts', 'noise', and 'density', which 'you' ARE OBVIOUSLY SHOWING, and SHARING here?

Also, if 'you' WANT TO NOT BE CURIOS ABOUT 'WHY' 'things' HAPPEN and OCCUR, then so be it. But, OBVIOUSLY, and LUCKILY, NOT ALL are that CLOSED or UNINTERESTED IN LEARNING, and KNOWING, MORE or ANEW.

They don't matter.

'you' FORGOT TO ADD that 'Why's' DO NOT MATTER TO 'you', ALONE, here.

'Being' is perfection beyond the conclusions of the human brain.

If 'this' IS ABSOLUTELY True, then WHY are 'you' here EXPRESSING and SHARING 'your' OWN 'human conceptual CONCLUSIONS', FROM 'that human brain', WITH 'us' here?

WHY NOT JUST 'Be', INSTEAD?

[Age]

P1: Increasingly intelligent life forms demand more energy as resources diminish (entropy increases).

Which resources are diminishing and what makes you think that?

The widely accepted laws of thermodynamics makes me think that.
Basically, energy available to us humans (an intelligent lifeform)

TO 'you', are 'you', human beings, an 'intelligent life form', OR, an 'increasingly intelligent life form'?

CHANGING 'your' VIEWS, FROM 'your' ORIGINAL premises will NOT HELP 'you' here.

to use in useful ways is converting to a form of 'disorder' that is 'less useable' for us.

'you' speak here as though 'you', human beings, are INCAPABLE OF ADAPTING. Which, OBVIOUSLY, then go COMPLETELY AGAINST 'your' CLAIM that 'you', humans' are 'an intelligent life form'.

Eventually the entire universe is expected to 'fade' out in the heat death where even stars no longer exist to provide useful energy.

AND, is this EXPECTATION, expected by the Truly INTELLIGENT ones of 'you', human beings, or the "other ones"?

P2: To sustain their existence, life must interface with a super-efficient state within a simulated world.

1. Maybe intelligent life forms are just becoming aware of greater/broader levels. 2. Maybe what you imagine as 'simulation' is just a human-contrived state that intelligent life forms are generating and passing through.

Lacewing and with respect, when I talk of intelligent life forms I really am just talking about us, humans.

With 1. I am not sure what you mean by 'greater/broader' levels? What are you suggesting, perhaps provide an example.

Considering the AMOUNT OF TIMES that "lacewing" has SAID and USED that 'phrase of term' have 'you' REALLY NOT YET WORKED OUT what IS ACTUALLY EXACTLY MEANT?

"lacewing" BELIEVES that there is ALWAYS A GREATER or BROADER LEVEL FROM which to LOOK and/or SEE FROM, EXACTLY.

Except, OF COURSE, when "lacewing" PRESENTS 'its' OWN VIEWS and BELIEVES, and then 'it' BELIEVES that 'those VIEWS', or VIEW, ARE AT THE HIGHEST or ABSOLUTE and COMPLETE LEVEL, of which there IS NO GREATER NOR BROADER LEVEL, VIEWPOINT.

By the way, "lacewing" USE that phrase or term in order to ALLUDE to the fact that what is being SAID or CLAIMED by the "other" is BECAUSE the "other" is being CLOSED somewhat or LIMITED BY 'its' OWN 'human concept'. In other words "lacewing" is SAYING, and BELIEVING, that whatever view that is being expressed is a somewhat LIMITED VIEW and thus NOT the ACTUAL Truth of 'things'. And, 'it' thinks 'it' KNOWS this BECAUSE 'it' BELIEVES that 'its' OWN, (very LIMITING) PRESUMPTIONS and BELIEFS are the ONLY ACTUAL True and Right ones.

With 2. What I am suggesting re 'simulation' is that we are reduced within this simulation of a reality we are originally accustomed to, but without material bodies. Thus super-efficient (yet same "reality") - even your body is part of the simulation. No energy is consumed for movement nor nourishment (beyond the energy of providing 5 senses qualia input).

ONCE 'you' REMOVE 'your' OWN VERY LIMITING PRESUMPTION or BELIEF that 'you', human beings, are in 'your' OWN IMAGINED and MADE UP 'simulation', then 'you' COULD 'become MORE aware', FROM and AT GREATER or BROADER LEVELS here "attofishpi". Which, in other words, just essentially means 'you' COULD BECOME MORE OPEN, and/or LESS CLOSED, if 'you' just REMOVED 'your' OWN ASSUMPTIONS and BELIEFS here.

C: Whether in a simulated reality or a divinely structured one, the existence of a controlling entity, 'God' or 'God,' is inevitable, operating as an A.I. orchestrating our existence.

This is what you imagine... but human 'conclusions' are limited by human understanding and perception.

That's right, it is what one can deduce by comprehending the ever increasing entropy as we move forward through time, and what will be required.

1. What 'you' REPLIED WITH and SAID here does NOT, logically, FOLLOW ON FROM what "lacewing" IS SAYING and POINTING OUT here.

2. 'your' CONCLUSION that 'it' is what one can deduce by comprehending the ever increasing entropy ..., does NOT even FOLLOW ON LOGICALLY FROM 'your' OWN WORDS and WRITINGS here.

3. ASSUMING or BELIEVING that there is some controlling entity, of ABSOLUTELY Everything, which is NOT even Intelligent, itself, and is just some sort of artificial intelligence is BEYOND ABSURDISM. Which, by the way, IS WHY what 'you' ARE SAYING and CLAIMING here IS BEYOND even being ABSURD.

4. COMPREHENDING ANY so PRESUMED, or BELIEVED, 'ever increasing entropy' does NOT mean that said 'thing' ACTUALLY EXISTS NOR is ACTUALLY even OCCURRING.

5. There ARE a few MORE completely ILLOGICAL 'things' I could POINT OUT and REVEAL in 'your views' here "attofishpi", but which I will leave for now. Unless ANY one IS INTERESTED.

Take this for example. Aeons into the future, we know we need to venture in some interstellar craft to another Sun system.

1. 'you', human beings, do NOT 'need' to do this.

2. Therefore, 'you', human beings, do NOT KNOW such 'a thing'. Now, if 'you' CLARIFIED and MADE CLEAR what 'you' NEEDED TO DO what 'you' said here FOR, EXACTLY, then 'you' WOULD HAVE BEEN SPEAKING the ACTUAL Truth. But, until then, what 'you' SAY here is NOT ACTUALLY Correct.

How is THE most efficient way of having souls on board? Bodies left behind, pure consciousness of those lucky enough to boards their minds within the craft-->simulation for aeons as they travel.
In other words, technology will make requiring to have bodies redundant-but we like our bodies! - So, Simulate them.

THERE IS NO SUCH 'things' AS 'their minds' NOR 'our minds', to even BEGIN WITH

Concepts of time and entities and control... are components of human story-making, yes? What if we are just awareness moving through fields? Fields of varying density. And there is no more control or meaning than what is contained in a wind that moves across a meadow.

We most definitely exist within fields of sub atomic particles.

Does it bother you to think that there is no one at a helm? Or to think that there is no helm?

No. There is always something\someone at the 'helm' for what humans HMS endeavour !!

Whatever there 'is', is most likely not defined by or limited to human concepts at all. How can we not realize how incredibly limited and dense and physical/material we are... and how all of our creations and imaginings are of 'that world'?

I'm sorry, but I think you truly underestimate humans.

Instead of imposing our human concepts beyond ourselves -- which only results in imaginatively extending and amplifying our illusion -- what if we consider the 'removal' of human concepts, noise, and density, as much as possible, to see what that feels like?

When I've practiced this, all of the 'why's' disappear. They don't matter. 'Being' is perfection beyond the conclusions of the human brain.

Noice.

What 'we' have here is ANOTHER VERY CLEAR example of when WITHIN two humans there IS AN IRREFUTABLE Truth, LYING.

BOTH of these human beings ARE 'trying' SO DESPERATELY TO EXPRESS A Truth, which 'they' BOTH KNOW IS EXACTLY and IRREFUTABLY Right AND Correct. Which 'they' BOTH OBVIOUSLY HAVE DIFFERENT VERSIONS OF, but, which, when 'they' ARE TRYING TO EXPLAIN/EXPRESS 'that ACTUAL Truth' through and from their OWN, individual and personal, Past Experiences 'they' BOTH INTERPRET and EXPRESS 'the ACTUAL Truth' WITH 'their' OWN personal human concepts, which just ENDS UP MAKING the ACTUAL Truth appear VERY CONFUSED, NON True, and/or JUST another LIE.

If ONLY 'they' BOTH JUST STOPPED "themselves" FROM PRESUMING and FROM BELIEVING that 'their' OWN personal VERSIONS were the ONLY TRUE and RIGHT ones, then 'they' BOTH COULD REALIZE and SEE that ACTUAL what BOTH OF 'them' REALLY WANT TO SHARE and EXPRESS IS ACTUALLY ABLE TO BE VERIFIED and PROVED True BY "the others" WORDS and CLAIMS here.

[attofishpi]

Well done Age, at least you are still conforming to the thread title (by talking complete random bollocks).

[Age]

Which resources are diminishing and what makes you think that?

The widely accepted laws of thermodynamics makes me think that.
Basically, energy available to us humans (an intelligent lifeform) to use in useful ways is converting to a form of 'disorder' that is 'less useable' for us. Eventually the entire universe is expected to 'fade' out in the heat death where even stars no longer exist to provide useful energy.

Thank you for your respectful response -- it's always nice when we can talk this way.

I want to further explore these concepts you suggest by asking questions and trying to apply my own sense of logic to them as an interesting exercise. Hopefully this won't irritate you.

Okay, so physical reality (including the physical Universe) is what you call a simulation, yes? I will use these interchangeably in my response, so hopefully that's reasonably suitable.

Is the simulation closed, or can new conditions or influences or awareness be injected into it?

From within the simulation, how much can we human beings expect to know?

1. Maybe intelligent life forms are just becoming aware of greater/broader levels.

Lacewing and with respect, when I talk of intelligent life forms I really am just talking about us, humans.

That's what I thought.

With 1. I am not sure what you mean by 'greater/broader' levels? What are you suggesting, perhaps provide an example.

Awareness beyond the denser levels of the simulation.

In other words, aspects of awareness that may extend beyond the goldfish bowl. Recognizing that the medium and container that humans experience are intended for the human life (much as a goldfish needs a bowl of water to swim in)... while 'what's beyond that reality' is very different. Maybe humans are able to become aware of such a difference between their physical world and something more seemingly non-physical -- through diverse kinds of 'spiritual' experiences.

Through, with, and by EVOLUTION, itself, there IS an 'I', 'thee Spirit' if one likes, which exists, ETERNALLY I will add, and which has ALREADY transcended THROUGH the 'human being' LEVEL stage, of Existence, and WHO HAS ALREADY CAME-TO-KNOW thy Self, THROUGH and BY what 'you' REFER TO "lacewing" A BROADER or GREATER PERSPECTIVE or Awareness, OF 'things'.

In other words, 'I' STOPPED LOOKING and SEEING 'things', FROM the 'human conceptual way', which, OBVIOUSLY, 'you', human beings, WERE STILL DOING in the days when this was being written. As 'we' can CLEARLY SEE here, in these writings in this forum.

The issue I notice is when human beings try to apply physical world attributes onto the non-physical (that which is beyond our physical world).

What 'we' have here is ANOTHER example of one PRESUMING or BELIEVING some 'thing' IS 'the case' BEFORE 'it' has OBTAINED ACTUAL CLARITY and/or ACTUAL PROOF, FIRST. This, 'this one' IS ACTUALLY DOING, EXACTLY, what 'it' SAYS and CLAIMS 'it' HAS A so-called ISSUE WITH.

It doesn't make sense to me that we can 'know that' in the same way that we think we know our physical world (or simulation, as you call it).

And here IS ANOTHER PRIME example OF EXACTLY WHY it took SO LONG for 'these adult human beings' TO COME-TO-KNOW and SEE, or REALIZE, what the ACTUAL Truth, HERE, IS, EXACTLY. 'This one' here IS SHOWING HOW 'it' IS BEING BLOCKED and PREVENTED FROM LEARNING MORE and/or ANEW.

If 'it' BELIEVES that it IS IMPOSSIBLE TO KNOW some 'things', which 'this one' OBVIOUSLY DOES, as can be CLEARLY SEEN and PROVED True BY the VERY WORDS that 'it' HAS USED here, then 'it' CAN NOT LEARN MORE, nor ANEW, in regards TO 'those things'.

What does NOT 'make sense' TO 'this one' here regarding what CAN BE KNOWN, IS ALREADY KNOWN. But OBVIOUSLY 'this' IS CONTRARY TO what 'this one' currently IS BELIEVING IS ABSOLUTELY TRUE, when this is being written.

What 'this one' had NOT YET RECOGNIZED and SEEN WAS that 'its' OWN 'contrived state', which is OBVIOUSLY just ANOTHER 'human conclusion', and JUST A PART OF the 'human condition', is what WAS STOPPING and PREVENTING the GREATER or BROADER LEVEL FROM being REACHED, and thus ACHIEVED.

'This one' IS PROVING, by SHOWING, HOW it was human beings' OWN 'contrived state'/s' that was what was EXACTLY STOPPING and PREVENTING evolution, itself, FROM PROCEEDING and MOVING FORWARD.

By STATING and CLAIMING that 'it does not make sense', to A 'human being', that human beings CAN KNOW SOME 'things', just SHOWS and PROVES ANOTHER 'human being' CONTRIVED STATE', which HELD 'them' BACK, PROFUSELY.

2. Maybe what you imagine as 'simulation' is just a human-contrived state that intelligent life forms are generating and passing through.

With 2. What I am suggesting re 'simulation' is that we are reduced within this simulation of a reality we are originally accustomed to, but without material bodies. Thus super-efficient (yet same "reality") - even your body is part of the simulation. No energy is consumed for movement nor nourishment (beyond the energy of providing 5 senses qualia input).

Well, I suppose anything is possible in a simulation.

I wonder how much our simulation, or any number of simulations, matter?

NONE, AT ALL.

BECAUSE ALL 'simulations' OCCUR, or APPEAR, IN the One and ONLY ACTUAL Reality. Which IS what SOME of 'you' ARE trying to GET TO , and ASCERTAIN.

Can we just play it out, whatever it looks like, in whatever form we are in, for as long as we are within it?

OF COURSE.

And, OBVIOUSLY, 'you' CAN PLAY 'your WAY', while "others" PLAY 'their WAY'.

But 'you' "lacewing", however, LIKE TO CRITICIZE, and/or RIDICULE, 'the WAY', some "others" PLAY.

AND 'you' DO THIS BECAUSE 'you' BELIEVE that 'your WAY' IS A MUCH BETTER WAY and/or a MUCH CORRECT and RIGHT WAY, TO PLAY.

This is what you imagine... but human 'conclusions' are limited by human understanding and perception.

That's right, it is what one can deduce by comprehending the ever increasing entropy as we move forward through time, and what will be required.

One can mistakenly deduce all sorts of things for all sorts of reasons. Why would any human within a simulation insist that their concept is 'inevitable' -- and isn't that a more interesting question?

Take this for example. Aeons into the future, we know we need to venture in some interstellar craft to another Sun system. How is THE most efficient way of having souls on board? Bodies left behind, pure consciousness of those lucky enough to boards their minds within the craft-->simulation for aeons as they travel.
In other words, technology will make requiring to have bodies redundant-but we like our bodies! - So, Simulate them.

Okay... but still a physical simulation (going to other physical planets), yes?

Concepts of time and entities and control... are components of human story-making, yes? What if we are just awareness moving through fields? Fields of varying density. And there is no more control or meaning than what is contained in a wind that moves across a meadow.

We most definitely exist within fields of sub atomic particles.

Still physical reality/simulation, yes? I guess I need to clarify with you... do you think there's anything 'outside' of (or beyond) the simulation you speak of?

There is always something\someone at the 'helm' for what humans HMS endeavour !!

According to your human brain, and from within a simulation that might be making it appear so?

Whatever there 'is', is most likely not defined by or limited to human concepts at all. How can we not realize how incredibly limited and dense and physical/material we are... and how all of our creations and imaginings are of 'that world'?

I'm sorry, but I think you truly underestimate humans.

In what way?

BUT 'you', the human being here known as "lacewing", ALSO think or BELIEVE that: 'It doesn't make sense to 'you' that 'you', human beings, can 'know that' [that is; the invisible and/or non physical world] in the same way that 'you', human beings, think 'you' know THE 'physical world'.

So, here IS ANOTHER WAY of 'you', "lacewing", Truly UNDERESTIMATING 'you', human beings.
I think humans have incredible capabilities. [/quote]

BUT NOT the CAPABILITY OF KNOWING the 'invisible to physical eye world' like 'you' CAN KNOW THE 'physical world', right?

If right, is then YET ANOTHER example of A human being MADE UP STORY, and ANOTHER LIMITING CONCEPT.

I just don't think the concepts of the goldfish bowl they're in can be applied onto what's beyond their goldfish bowl.

BUT there is NO 'beyond' the so-called 'goldfish bowl'.

The ACTUAL Universe, or 'goldfish bowl' IS, literally, ALL-THERE-IS.

'you' just think or BELIEVE that THERE IS MORE, or BEYOND, BECAUSE 'you' ARE ACTUALLY LIMITING 'the WHOLE' with and because of 'your' OWN MADE UP STORIES and 'human concepts' here.

That would be like an infinite number of goldfish bowls, each within another. Or... applying the characteristics and understandings from within a simulated reality onto what's beyond that simulated reality.

ONCE MORE 'we' can SEE here just how LIMITING, NARROWED, or CLOSED 'these adult human beings' ACTUALLY LOOKED AT and SAW 'things', BACK THEN, when this was being written.

'They' CONTINUALLY WANTED TO SEE 'an end', 'a boundary', or some kind of 'finiteness' TO 'things'.

Instead of imposing our human concepts beyond ourselves -- which only results in imaginatively extending and amplifying our illusion -- what if we consider the 'removal' of human concepts, noise, and density, as much as possible, to see what that feels like?

When I've practiced this, all of the 'why's' disappear. They don't matter. 'Being' is perfection beyond the conclusions of the human brain.

Noice.

What are you saying? I'm describing my experience when I've 'turned off' my typical human mental chatter and just quietly stood in awareness. Have you tried setting aside your noise?

'your NOISE' here "lacewing" IS SO LOUD that 'it' could be SAID TO BE 'DEAFENING', AT TIMES.

Do you know what that's like?

How about 'you' TRY TO SPEAK and WRITE here NOT FROM 'your' OWN 'noise', 'chatter', BELIEFS, nor ASSUMPTIONS, and INSTEAD JUST FROM A Truly OPEN perspective, ALONE?

Do 'you' KNOW what that is like?