The USA and Israel

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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: The USA and Israel

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

Though I have my issues with Chomsky, yet I accept his argument here.
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Re: The USA and Israel

Post by phyllo »

That is all correct in some senses
Let's look at how Hamas took power in Gaza:
The Battle of Gaza, also referred to as Hamas's takeover of Gaza, was a military conflict between Fatah and Hamas that took place in the Gaza Strip from 10 to 15 June 2007. It was a prominent event in the Fatah–Hamas conflict, centered on the struggle for power after Fatah lost the 2006 Palestinian legislative election. The battle resulted in the dissolution of the unity government[3] and the de facto division of the Palestinian territories into two entities: the West Bank governed by the Palestinian National Authority (PNA), and the Gaza Strip governed by Hamas. Hamas fighters took control of the Gaza Strip, while Fatah officials were either taken as prisoners, executed, or expelled.[3][4] The Palestinian Centre for Human Rights reported that at least 161 people were killed and more than 700 were wounded during the fighting.[1]

Background

In 2003, the Palestinian Basic Law of the PNA was amended[5] and a semi-presidential form of government was established, whereby a constitution creates a directly elected fixed-term president, plus a prime minister and cabinet collectively responsible to the legislature.[6]

Documents published in the Palestine Papers reveal that in 2004, the British Secret Intelligence Service helped to draw up a security plan for the Fatah-led PNA. The plan proposed a number of ways to degrade the capabilities of opposition groups such as Hamas, Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ), and the al-Aqsa Brigades. The strategy would involve disruption of command, control & communications capabilities, detention of key officials, and confiscation of their weapons and financial resources.[7][8] This plan was passed to Jibril Rajoub, a senior Fatah official of the PNA, and most of the stated objectives were achieved by the West Bank-based PNA security apparatus.[9][10]

Yasser Arafat, the President of the Palestinian National Authority, died on 11 November 2004. A Palestinian presidential election to fill the position took place on 9 January 2005 in both the West Bank and Gaza. This election — which was boycotted by both Hamas and PIJ — resulted in Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) and Fatah chairman Mahmoud Abbas being elected President for a four-year term.[11][12]

On 8 February 2005, Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas and Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon announced a ceasefire,[13] which Hamas endorsed on 17 March 2005.[14] On 19 March 2005 twelve Palestinian factions, including Fatah, Hamas, PIJ, Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) and Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine (DFLP) signed the Palestinian Cairo Declaration, which reaffirmed the status of the PLO as the sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people, and implied a reform of the PLO by its inclusion of Hamas and PIJ.[15]

Israel completed its unilateral disengagement from the Gaza Strip on 12 September 2005, removing all Israeli residents and security personnel, and demolishing all of the associated residential buildings.[16] On 26 September 2005, Israeli forces arrested or detained 450 members of the Hamas party for violating the ban on rallies, public meetings and election campaigns inside Jerusalem. Most of those detained were either running for elected office or actively campaigning for candidates in the 2006 Palestinian legislative election.[17]

2006 Palestinian legislative election

The Palestinian legislative election took place on 25 January 2006 and was judged to be free and fair by international observers.[18][19] It resulted in a Hamas victory, surprising Israel and the United States, which had expected their favoured partner, Fatah, to retain power.[20] On 27 January, US President George Bush said "the landslide victory of the militant Islamic group Hamas was rejection of the "status quo" and a repudiation of the "old guard" that had failed to provide honest government and services".[21]

On 30 January 2006, the Quartet on the Middle East (United States, Russia, United Nations, and European Union) issued a formal statement congratulating the Palestinian people on an electoral process that was free, fair and secure. In the statement, the Quartet also stipulated that "future assistance to any new Government would be reviewed by donors against that Government’s commitment to the principles of non-violence, recognition of Israel, and acceptance of previous agreements and obligations, including the Road Map."[22] Hamas rejected these conditions, saying that "the 'unfair conditions' would endanger the well-being of Palestinians". This view was echoed by Saudi Foreign Minister Saud al-Faisal, who said: "The European Union insisted on having elections in Palestine, and this is the result of what they asked for. Now to come around, and say [they] don't accept the will of the people that was expressed through democratic means, seems an unreasonable position to take." The BBC's diplomatic correspondent, James Robbins, said the Quartet's response was chosen with care: "They did not demand a renunciation of violence or immediate recognition of Israel, but a commitment to these things in the future".[23]

First Haniyeh Government

After Hamas rejected the conditions of the Quartet, Fatah and other factions refused to join in a national unity government. On 29 March 2006, Hamas established the First Haniyeh Government, which was composed mostly of members of Hamas, with Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh as Prime Minister.[24] The international community responded by imposing economic sanctions against the PNA, and Egypt and Israel largely closed their border crossings with Gaza, instituting a blockade of the Gaza Strip.

President Abbas was under pressure from the international community, which considered Hamas's victory to be unacceptable as it was perceived to undermine decades of international efforts to secure a peaceful resolution to the conflict. The Quartet attempted to undermine Hamas and force it from power while strengthening the position of Abbas.[25][26] It was suggested that Abbas could use his constitutional powers to dismiss the government and call for new elections, which were intended to yield a different result and reinstall Fatah in power on the grounds that the Palestinian electorate would perceive Hamas as a failure. The threat of new elections was never carried out because it emerged that Hamas might in fact be returned to power despite its inability to implement its manifesto and because the movement itself strongly signaled that calling new elections although a constitutional prerogative of the President, would amount to 'a coup against Palestinian legitimacy and the will of the Palestinian people'.[6][27]

The new Hamas government clashed with President Abbas, who shared power with it based on the Palestinian National Covenant. Through presidential decrees, Abbas took exclusive presidential authority over several administrative powers and periodically threatened to dismiss the Haniya government.[6] He also placed the security forces of the Gaza Strip under his direct control[6] and increased the Palestinian Presidential Guard — which consisted entirely of Fatah activists loyal to him — from about 90 to 1,000 officers.[28] Hamas responded by creating a parallel security force — the Executive Force — which consisted of members of the its military wing, led by Jamal Abu Samhadana. Abbas denounced the move as unconstitutional, saying that only the Palestinian president could command armed forces.[28] The two forces refused to cooperate — Hamas's forces supported armed resistance to Israel, whereas those of Fatah were committed to upholding the Oslo Accords.[6]

Hamas was receiving money and arms from Iran and possibly Syria and was threatening to increase its Executive Force to 6,000 men. At that point, the U.S. began to provide training in urban anti-terrorist techniques to members of the Presidential Guard, with the goal of strengthening Abbas's security forces. Egypt, Jordan and Turkey also began to provide similar training for the Fatah forces at that time, and Britain, Spain and the European Union began to provide communications equipment, vehicles and logistical support.[28] There was also a plan to add the PLO's Jordan-based Badr Brigade to the Presidential Guard.[29] Israel's Security Agency also supported President Abbas and the Presidential Guard but was concerned about their previous experience, in which many Palestinian security officers who had been trained by the CIA later engaged in attacks on Israeli targets or joined the al-Aqsa Brigades during the Second Intifada.[28]

Following the abduction by Hamas militants of Gilad Shalit on 25 June 2006 in a cross-border raid via a tunnel out of Gaza, Israel arrested 49 senior Hamas officials, including 33 parliamentarians, nearly a quarter of PLC members and ministers on the West Bank. They also intensified the boycott of Gaza and took other punitive measures.[17][30]

Second Haniyeh Government

President Abbas and the Fatah-dominated PLO developed a plan to replace the Hamas government with one acceptable to Israel and the international community. According to the plan, unveiled in Al Jazeera's Palestine Papers, a national unity government would be formed by mid-2007. If this new government failed to meet the Quartet's conditions, Abbas would dismiss the government and form an emergency government or call early elections.[31]

By October 2006, the United States, Israel, many Arab governments, and most of Abbas's key advisors still held the view that if Hamas did not unambiguously accept the Quartet's conditions, it should be forced out of power.[32] In December 2006, President Abbas called for new parliamentary and presidential elections, which members of both Hamas and Fatah rejected.[33][34]

The Fatah and Hamas factions finally signed an agreement to stop their military confrontations on 8 February 2007 and agreed to form a national unity government. That government was established in March 2007.

Battle

According to the International Institute for Strategic Studies, the June 2007 escalation was triggered by Hamas's conviction that the Palestinian Presidential Guard — expanded by the United States to 3,500 men and loyal to Mahmoud Abbas — was being positioned to take control of Gaza.[35]

On 10 June 2007, the Fatah–Hamas conflict culminated in clashes between Fatah-allied forces and Hamas-allied forces. The primary Fatah forces were the Palestinian National Security Forces, particularly the Presidential Guard. The main force of Hamas was the Executive Force. Hamas militants seized several Fatah members and threw one of them, Mohammed Sweirki, an officer in the elite Presidential Guard, off the top of the tallest building in Gaza, a 15-story apartment building. In retaliation, Fatah militants attacked and killed the imam of the city's Great Mosque, Mohammed al-Rifati. They also opened fire on the home of Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh. Just before midnight, a Hamas militant was thrown off a 12-story building.[36]

On 11 June, the residences of both President Abbas and of then-Prime Minister Ismail Haniya, of Hamas, were targeted with gun and shell fire.[37]

On 12 June, Hamas began attacking posts held by their Fatah faction rivals. Hundreds of Hamas fighters had moved on the positions after giving their occupants two hours to leave. A major Fatah base in the northern town of Jabalia fell to Hamas fighters, witnesses told AFP news agency. Heavy fighting also raged around the main Fatah headquarters in Gaza City, with Hamas militants attacking with rocket-propelled grenades and automatic weapons.[38]

On 13 June, Hamas attacked the headquarters of the Palestinian National Security Forces in northern Gaza. Gunmen fought for control of high-rise buildings serving as sniper positions and Hamas said it had bulldozed a Fatah outpost controlling Gaza's main north-south road. Also on that day, an explosion wrecked the Khan Yunis headquarters of the Fatah-linked Palestinian Preventive Security, killing five people.[2]

On 14 June, President Abbas announced the dissolution of the unity government and declared a state of emergency as Hamas militants took over vehicles and weapons in the National Security headquarters compound — Abbas' residence.[39] The gunmen who entered the compound held a prayer there and waved a flag on the building's rooftop. At least 10 people were killed. Hamas TV broadcast a display of weapons inside the building, as well as jeeps, mortar shells and bulletproof vests seized in the compound, which, according to Hamas, were smuggled to Fatah by Israel and the Americans in the past few months through the border with Egypt.[40] Hamas also changed the name of the neighborhood where the building is located from "Tel al-Hawa" to "Tel al-Islam".[40] On the afternoon of 14 June, the Associated Press reported an explosion that rocked Gaza City. According to Fatah officials, security forces withdrew from their post and blew it up in order to not let Hamas take it over. The security forces later repositioned to another location. Later on 14 June, Hamas also took control of the southern Gaza Strip city Rafah, which lies near an already closed border crossing with Egypt that is monitored by Israeli, Palestinian and European Union security forces. The EU staff had, at that time, already been relocated to the Israeli city of Ashkelon for safety reasons.

On 15 June, Hamas completed taking control over the Gaza Strip, seizing all PNA government institutions and replacing all PNA officials in Gaza with Hamas members.[4][41]

Alleged military coup

As a result of the battle, Hamas took complete control of Gaza. The pro-Fatah view is, that it was a plain military coup by Hamas. The pro-Hamas view is, that the US drew up a plan to arm Fatah cadres with the aim of forcefully removing Hamas from power in Gaza. According to the pro-Hamas view, Fatah fighters, led by commander Mohammed Dahlan with logistical support from the US Central Intelligence Agency, were planning to carry out a bloody coup against Hamas.[42] Then, Hamas pre-emptively took control over Gaza.

In an April 2008 article in Vanity Fair magazine, the journalist David Rose published confidential documents, apparently originating from the US State Department, which would prove that the United States collaborated with the PNA and Israel to attempt the violent overthrow of Hamas in the Gaza Strip, and that Hamas pre-empted the coup. The documents suggest that a government with Hamas should meet the demands of the Middle East Quartet, otherwise President Mahmoud Abbas should declare a state of emergency, which effectively would dissolve the current unity government, or the government should collapse by other means.[citation needed] Rose quotes former Vice President Dick Cheney's chief Middle East adviser David Wurmser, accusing the Bush administration of "engaging in a dirty war in an effort to provide a corrupt dictatorship [led by Abbas] with victory." He believes that Hamas had no intention of taking Gaza until Fatah forced its hand. "It looks to me that what happened wasn't so much a coup by Hamas but an attempted coup by Fatah that was pre-empted before it could happen"[citation needed]

According to Alastair Crooke, the then British Prime Minister Tony Blair decided in 2003 to tie UK and EU security policy in the West Bank and Gaza to a US-led counterinsurgency against Hamas. This led to an internal policy contradiction that pre-empted the EU from mounting any effective foreign policy on the "peace process" alternative to that of the US. At a political level, the EU "talked the talk" of reconciliation between Fatah and Hamas, Palestinian state-building and democracy. At the practical level, the EU "walked the walk" of disruption, detention, seizing finances, and destroying the capabilities of one [Hamas] of the two factions and prevented the parliament from exercising any function.[43]

According to Crooke, the Quartet conditions for engagement with Hamas were developed precisely in order to prevent Hamas from meeting them, rather than as guidelines intended to open the path for diplomatic solutions. Then, British and American intelligence services were preparing a "soft" coup to remove Hamas from power in Gaza.[43]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Gaza_(2007)

IOW, there have been repeated attempts by the US, EU and Israel to undermine an elected Hamas government. Making the situation worse in the process.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: The USA and Israel

Post by Immanuel Can »

Gary Childress wrote: Thu Dec 07, 2023 9:31 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Dec 07, 2023 9:11 pm
Gary Childress wrote: Thu Dec 07, 2023 8:54 pm

I told you in the next couple of sentences which you seem to have ignored in your reply.
No, you didn't. Instead, you said, "it's an incomplete story seen through the lens of Israeli hardliners." It was actually through the eyes of a liberal university professor living in the West, albeit a Jewish one. So you got that wrong...completely. He wasn't a "hardliner," and you didn't say what was "incomplete."

Or, if you think it was "incomplete", you can now "complete" it for us. But don't talk rubbish or vague dismissals. If his story was "incomplete," say exactly what he missed that you think needs to be added.

If you can't, then you can't.
Fair enough. Jews appropriated the land of the Palestinians against the will of people living there in 1948.
More correct to say: the people who had been living on the land since the Jews were expelled from it resented the Return and wanted the Jews killed. So they abandoned the Jews, hoping they would be slaughtered. And having been put from their homes by the hope of genocide, are now in a bad position to return to their former lands, and are being used by Arab nations to torment Israel -- and have now made themselves so homicidal and dangerous that the Jews can no longer not do something to mitigate their viciousness.

That's the reality. The rest is smoke-and-mirrors.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: The USA and Israel

Post by Immanuel Can »

Iwannaplato wrote: Thu Dec 07, 2023 9:48 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Dec 07, 2023 9:24 pm
Iwannaplato wrote: Thu Dec 07, 2023 9:17 pm So, what part of Flannel Jesus' post do you think that was an appropriate response to on accelafine's post.
I didn't say anything about FJ's post. I said, "Speak the truth." Anybody who has a problem with that advice has bigger problems than me.
So, you have no idea what he was responding to and attacking, but you wrote a post supporting him.
I didn't write in specific reference to anything FJ said. I wrote because he's rightly defending Israel's prerogative to defend itself against what cannot be misunderstood for anything but an attempt at utter genocide. And he should keep going, even if the wicked, the ill-informed and the unwary do not receive that message well.

That's my point. And there it ends.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: The USA and Israel

Post by Immanuel Can »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: Thu Dec 07, 2023 10:04 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Dec 07, 2023 7:06 pm After 2000 years of longing, the result of the Holocaust – a Nazi movement which sought to ethnically cleanse the world of Jews by systematically exterminating us – was that the international community granted us a sliver of that ancestral homeland. It was to be shared, partitioned into a Jewish state & an Arab state.

[snip]

Where is that incorrect?
First point is in this: It is simply not possible to resort to the argument that, at some point in history, God gifted a land to a specific people.
First, point out to me where he said that.
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Re: The USA and Israel

Post by Age »

Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Dec 07, 2023 3:36 pm
Age wrote: Thu Dec 07, 2023 6:59 am It could be said and argued that "hamas" began, or was started, BECAUSE they were 'standing up' for the innocent human beings who were being MURDERED and DISPLACED.
That would be a foolish argument, since abundant archaeological evidence shows the Jews have lived in Israel for thousands of years, the majority only being displaced after the Romans burned Jerusalem.
Besides 'this' having absolutely NOTHING AT ALL to do with what I am talking ABOUT, what you say and claim here would NOT even counter what I have been and am POINTING OUT here anyway.
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Dec 07, 2023 3:36 pm It would also be a barbarous argument, seeing as Hamas tore open pregnant women and cut up their babies in front of their eyes, and brutalized and kidnapped old people and children, and raped young women to death and then sat on their bodies and laughed.
Even if 'this' were true you are coming across as though 'these things' are somehow worse than having bombs dropped on one's head. Which is beyond being ridiculous.

Also, WHY do the people on the "israeli side", like 'you' obviously are "immanuel can", use sensationalism, unsubstantiated claims, and/or very emotive language?
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Dec 07, 2023 3:36 pm That ain't freedom fighting, chum...that's a massacre.
And dropping bombs on human beings is NOT a massacre, "chumly"?

Also, some would say and argue that the "side" who is killing and murdering MORE, is committing a bigger, or MORE of a, 'massacre'.
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Dec 07, 2023 3:36 pm
BUT, the people of "israel" have declared that 'they' will NOT stop until 'those human beings' have been WIPED OFF the earth.
They have not, actually: that's a libel on your part.
And the 'things' you have SAID and CLAIMED here are IRREFUTABLY True AND Right, correct?

Also, HOW do you KNOW that 'they' have DEFINITELY NOT said 'that'?
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Dec 07, 2023 3:36 pm They've been warning civilians before any operations.
So, you BELIEVE it is okay and justified to bomb innocent human beings homes, lively hoods, hospitals, and even "themselves", just as long as you warn 'them' prior to doing so.
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Dec 07, 2023 3:36 pm Hamas won't let its own people flee to safety,
But bombing those exact same people is okay and justified, right?
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Dec 07, 2023 3:36 pm and keeps firing rockets into Israel.
How do expect an oppressed group of human beings to react, to the oppressors?
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Dec 07, 2023 3:36 pm Israel has long campaigned for a two-state solution, but the Palestinians won't have it.
Why not?
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Dec 07, 2023 3:36 pm Israel clearly has no interest in killing more Palestinians...
This is 'clear', as long as you are looking at and from "one side" or from one perspective ONLY.
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Dec 07, 2023 3:36 pm but Hamas won't let them stop.
Ah okay, so to you it is "hamas" who actually will NOT let "israelis" stop killing and murdering "palestinians".
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: The USA and Israel

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Dec 08, 2023 1:33 am
Alexis Jacobi wrote: Thu Dec 07, 2023 10:04 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Dec 07, 2023 7:06 pm After 2000 years of longing, the result of the Holocaust – a Nazi movement which sought to ethnically cleanse the world of Jews by systematically exterminating us – was that the international community granted us a sliver of that ancestral homeland. It was to be shared, partitioned into a Jewish state & an Arab state.

[snip]

Where is that incorrect?
First point is in this: It is simply not possible to resort to the argument that, at some point in history, God gifted a land to a specific people.
First, point out to me where he said that.
The name “Janoah” ring a bell for you?
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Re: The USA and Israel

Post by Iwannaplato »

Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Dec 08, 2023 1:32 am
Iwannaplato wrote: Thu Dec 07, 2023 9:48 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Dec 07, 2023 9:24 pm
I didn't say anything about FJ's post. I said, "Speak the truth." Anybody who has a problem with that advice has bigger problems than me.
So, you have no idea what he was responding to and attacking, but you wrote a post supporting him.
I didn't write in specific reference to anything FJ said. I wrote because he's rightly defending Israel's prerogative to defend itself against what cannot be misunderstood for anything but an attempt at utter genocide. And he should keep going, even if the wicked, the ill-informed and the unwary do not receive that message well.

That's my point. And there it ends.
But that's not what he's doing. He has done that. But he's doing a bunch of things, including in that post, which you are supporting. And since you simply pat him on the back verbally and frame what he is doing in the way you do, his name calling, insults, mindreading, oversimplifications, mislabelling - FJ is a conspiracy theorist?? - and hate are all supported by you. And implicitly you judge the people he is responding to in the same ways, here couching them here as wicked and ill-informed. He seems to be 'on your team', so he is supported. How like what happens in the Middle East and elsewhere, though without the violence. The same 'my team is right' period.
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: The USA and Israel

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

Ron Unz, who runs a webpage [Unz Review] where he publishes widely divergent articles written by those who are pushed out of the mainstream (for example Chris Hedges and Andrew Anglin, two people who would likely strange each other if found in a room together) gave an interview to Red Ice (run by two people who have been excluded from all conventional media platforms) in which he explains his view/interpretation of the Hamas attack and what followed it.

I have watched or read a wide range of descriptions of the Hamas attack from MSNBC to Democracy Now! and I find Unz is seeing most clearly and explaining more accurately.

If you are (if one is) a partisan of a particular perspective and if one takes a specific side, I doubt that one can achieve what we say that we strive for: objectivity. So if there is an *intellectual art* it is becoming aware of one's own biases and, at least, noting them and, at best, putting them aside if only for a moment.

The best strategy as far as it pertains to people -- like us -- who have a philosophical orientation, is to try to see political and social events in the clearest light, to the degree that that is possible. But that means too examining things from all angles. That is, reading and becoming aware of how divergent people frame issues.

OTOH, if we are activists of a particular viewpoint or orientation, and if we have taken a particular political side, I cannot necessarily oppose someone for wanting to insert their views into narratives and working to influence people to accept them. Or perhaps the word I seek is "blame". I can't blame them for holding to a particular activist's stance.
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Re: The USA and Israel

Post by phyllo »

OTOH, if we are activists of a particular viewpoint or orientation, and if we have taken a particular political side, I cannot necessarily oppose someone for wanting to insert their views into narratives and working to influence people to accept them. Or perhaps the word I seek is "blame". I can't blame them for holding to a particular activist's stance.
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You can't blame them for twisting the truth or spreading outright lies???

That's what "insert their views" ultimately means. Right?
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Immanuel Can
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Re: The USA and Israel

Post by Immanuel Can »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: Fri Dec 08, 2023 6:36 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Dec 08, 2023 1:33 am
Alexis Jacobi wrote: Thu Dec 07, 2023 10:04 pm

First point is in this: It is simply not possible to resort to the argument that, at some point in history, God gifted a land to a specific people.
First, point out to me where he said that.
The name “Janoah” ring a bell for you?
Janoah didn't write what I quoted.

What you'll find, instead, is that the author never said any such thing.

I don't even know if he believes that, but he certainly didn't draw on it to make his case, did he?
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Re: The USA and Israel

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

phyllo wrote: Fri Dec 08, 2023 2:47 pm
OTOH, if we are activists of a particular viewpoint or orientation, and if we have taken a particular political side, I cannot necessarily oppose someone for wanting to insert their views into narratives and working to influence people to accept them. Or perhaps the word I seek is "blame". I can't blame them for holding to a particular activist's stance.
Top
You can't blame them for twisting the truth or spreading outright lies???

That's what "insert their views" ultimately means. Right?
Of course.
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Re: The USA and Israel

Post by Immanuel Can »

Iwannaplato wrote: Fri Dec 08, 2023 9:35 am ...he's doing a bunch of things, including in that post, which you are supporting.
All I've "supported" is the duty to speak the truth. Go and check.
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: The USA and Israel

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Dec 08, 2023 2:54 pm
Alexis Jacobi wrote: Fri Dec 08, 2023 6:36 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Dec 08, 2023 1:33 am First, point out to me where he said that.
The name “Janoah” ring a bell for you?
Janoah didn't write what I quoted.

What you'll find, instead, is that the author never said any such thing.

I don't even know if he believes that, but he certainly didn't draw on it to make his case, did he?
I lost a post. I thought I'd sent it but it was erased. Here it is in a nutshell:

All Zionist belief is derivative from religious belief: God gave us this land. Though the early atheist Zionists did not believe in the God of Israel, nevertheless they operated under the same assumption or assertion of *this is ours*. And Jewish Zionism was empowered by Christian Zionism which anteceded it. And Christian Zionism is based in religious mythology.

In the article you submitted, the writer is also operating under that assumption, as do many secular Jews and Israelis. He does say *the international community granted us a sliver of land*, I acknowledge this, but in general the underlying idea *this is ours* (and given by divine decree) is the prevailing idea.

You certainly believe that. And you tempt Janoah to deny the same. I am particularly interested in how you structure your views because, as a religious zealot and fanatic, your view is very common. And your Christian Zionist view powers America's support for Israel, and therfore is reponsible for immense destruction and suffering.

You are a slithering, lying hypocrite Immanuel. I say this neutrally. One is duty-bound to describe you as you really are.

Thus: *you* co-create what we see happening now. It could have been different, you see. But liars, and manipulators, and devious types (like yourself) have fucked things up for 100 years.

You say *I am on God's side*.

I say you are much more on the side of the Satan-figure, though I do not believe in that figure. I refer to the symbol to make a point -- many points -- about the convolutions in our twisted belief-systems.

Sorting through it all is the task of a Saint. And that explains my Advent of course.
The time is out of joint — O cursèd spite,
That ever I was born to set it right!
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Re: The USA and Israel

Post by phyllo »

I wrote because he's rightly defending Israel's prerogative to defend itself against what cannot be misunderstood for anything but an attempt at utter genocide. And he should keep going, even if the wicked, the ill-informed and the unwary do not receive that message well.

That's my point. And there it ends.
Accelafine should "keep going" when he claims that Palestinians are faking their suffering?

He wrote that dead Palestinian children and babies are dolls and they are using AI to create fake news.
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