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Post by attofishpi »

https://androcies.com/DivineEtymology.php

P1: Increasingly intelligent life forms demand more energy as resources diminish (entropy increases).

P2: To sustain their existence, life must interface with a super-efficient state within a simulated world.

C: Whether in a simulated reality or a divinely structured one, the existence of a controlling entity, God or 'God,' is inevitable, operating as an A.I. orchestrating our existence.
Last edited by attofishpi on Fri Dec 15, 2023 10:20 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Simulation or Divine Reality Argument.

Post by Lacewing »

attofishpi wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2023 8:57 am P1: Increasingly intelligent life forms demand more energy as resources diminish (entropy increases).
Which resources are diminishing and what makes you think that?
attofishpi wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2023 8:57 amP2: To sustain their existence, life must interface with a super-efficient state within a simulated world.
Maybe intelligent life forms are just becoming aware of greater/broader levels. Maybe what you imagine as 'simulation' is just a human-contrived state that intelligent life forms are generating and passing through.
attofishpi wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2023 8:57 amC: Whether in a simulated reality or a divinely structured one, the existence of a controlling entity, 'God' or 'God,' is inevitable, operating as an A.I. orchestrating our existence.
This is what you imagine... but human 'conclusions' are limited by human understanding and perception.

Concepts of time and entities and control... are components of human story-making, yes? What if we are just awareness moving through fields? Fields of varying density. And there is no more control or meaning than what is contained in a wind that moves across a meadow.

Does it bother you to think that there is no one at a helm? Or to think that there is no helm?

Whatever there 'is', is most likely not defined by or limited to human concepts at all. How can we not realize how incredibly limited and dense and physical/material we are... and how all of our creations and imaginings are of 'that world'?

Instead of imposing our human concepts beyond ourselves -- which only results in imaginatively extending and amplifying our illusions -- what if we consider the 'removal' of human concepts, noise, and density, as much as possible, to see what that feels like?

When I've practiced this, all of the 'why's' disappear. They don't matter. 'Being' is perfection beyond the conclusions of the human brain.
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Re: Simulation or Divine Reality Argument.

Post by attofishpi »

Lacewing wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2023 12:46 pm
attofishpi wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2023 8:57 am P1: Increasingly intelligent life forms demand more energy as resources diminish (entropy increases).
Which resources are diminishing and what makes you think that?
The widely accepted laws of thermodynamics makes me think that.
Basically, energy available to us humans (an intelligent lifeform) to use in useful ways is converting to a form of 'disorder' that is 'less useable' for us. Eventually the entire universe is expected to 'fade' out in the heat death where even stars no longer exist to provide useful energy.

Lacewing wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2023 12:46 pm
attofishpi wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2023 8:57 amP2: To sustain their existence, life must interface with a super-efficient state within a simulated world.
1. Maybe intelligent life forms are just becoming aware of greater/broader levels. 2. Maybe what you imagine as 'simulation' is just a human-contrived state that intelligent life forms are generating and passing through.
Lacewing and with respect, when I talk of intelligent life forms I really am just talking about us, humans.

With 1. I am not sure what you mean by 'greater/broader' levels? What are you suggesting, perhaps provide an example.
With 2. What I am suggesting re 'simulation' is that we are reduced within this simulation of a reality we are originally accustomed to, but without material bodies. Thus super-efficient (yet same "reality") - even your body is part of the simulation. No energy is consumed for movement nor nourishment (beyond the energy of providing 5 senses qualia input).

Lacewing wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2023 12:46 pm
attofishpi wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2023 8:57 amC: Whether in a simulated reality or a divinely structured one, the existence of a controlling entity, 'God' or 'God,' is inevitable, operating as an A.I. orchestrating our existence.
This is what you imagine... but human 'conclusions' are limited by human understanding and perception.
That's right, it is what one can deduce by comprehending the ever increasing entropy as we move forward through time, and what will be required.

Take this for example. Aeons into the future, we know we need to venture in some interstellar craft to another Sun system. How is THE most efficient way of having souls on board? Bodies left behind, pure consciousness of those lucky enough to boards their minds within the craft-->simulation for aeons as they travel.
In other words, technology will make requiring to have bodies redundant-but we like our bodies! - So, Simulate them.

Lacewing wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2023 12:46 pmConcepts of time and entities and control... are components of human story-making, yes? What if we are just awareness moving through fields? Fields of varying density. And there is no more control or meaning than what is contained in a wind that moves across a meadow.
We most definitely exist within fields of sub atomic particles.

Lacewing wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2023 12:46 pm Does it bother you to think that there is no one at a helm? Or to think that there is no helm?
No. There is always something\someone at the 'helm' for what humans HMS endeavour !!

Lacewing wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2023 12:46 pmWhatever there 'is', is most likely not defined by or limited to human concepts at all. How can we not realize how incredibly limited and dense and physical/material we are... and how all of our creations and imaginings are of 'that world'?
I'm sorry, but I think you truly underestimate humans.

Lacewing wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2023 12:46 pm Instead of imposing our human concepts beyond ourselves -- which only results in imaginatively extending and amplifying our illusion -- what if we consider the 'removal' of human concepts, noise, and density, as much as possible, to see what that feels like?

When I've practiced this, all of the 'why's' disappear. They don't matter. 'Being' is perfection beyond the conclusions of the human brain.
Noice.
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Re: Simulation or Divine Reality Argument.

Post by Lacewing »

attofishpi wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2023 1:49 pm
Lacewing wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2023 12:46 pm
attofishpi wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2023 8:57 am P1: Increasingly intelligent life forms demand more energy as resources diminish (entropy increases).
Which resources are diminishing and what makes you think that?
The widely accepted laws of thermodynamics makes me think that.
Basically, energy available to us humans (an intelligent lifeform) to use in useful ways is converting to a form of 'disorder' that is 'less useable' for us. Eventually the entire universe is expected to 'fade' out in the heat death where even stars no longer exist to provide useful energy.
Thank you for your respectful response -- it's always nice when we can talk this way.

I want to further explore these concepts you suggest by asking questions and trying to apply my own sense of logic to them as an interesting exercise. Hopefully this won't irritate you. :)

Okay, so physical reality (including the physical Universe) is what you call a simulation, yes? I will use these interchangeably in my response, so hopefully that's reasonably suitable.

Is the simulation closed, or can new conditions or influences or awareness be injected into it?

From within the simulation, how much can we human beings expect to know?
attofishpi wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2023 1:49 pm
Lacewing wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2023 12:46 pm
attofishpi wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2023 8:57 amP2: To sustain their existence, life must interface with a super-efficient state within a simulated world.
1. Maybe intelligent life forms are just becoming aware of greater/broader levels.
Lacewing and with respect, when I talk of intelligent life forms I really am just talking about us, humans.
That's what I thought.
attofishpi wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2023 1:49 pmWith 1. I am not sure what you mean by 'greater/broader' levels? What are you suggesting, perhaps provide an example.
Awareness beyond the denser levels of the simulation.

In other words, aspects of awareness that may extend beyond the goldfish bowl. Recognizing that the medium and container that humans experience are intended for the human life (much as a goldfish needs a bowl of water to swim in)... while 'what's beyond that reality' is very different. Maybe humans are able to become aware of such a difference between their physical world and something more seemingly non-physical -- through diverse kinds of 'spiritual' experiences.

The issue I notice is when human beings try to apply physical world attributes onto the non-physical (that which is beyond our physical world). It doesn't make sense to me that we can 'know that' in the same way that we think we know our physical world (or simulation, as you call it).
attofishpi wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2023 1:49 pm
Lacewing wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2023 12:46 pm 2. Maybe what you imagine as 'simulation' is just a human-contrived state that intelligent life forms are generating and passing through.
With 2. What I am suggesting re 'simulation' is that we are reduced within this simulation of a reality we are originally accustomed to, but without material bodies. Thus super-efficient (yet same "reality") - even your body is part of the simulation. No energy is consumed for movement nor nourishment (beyond the energy of providing 5 senses qualia input).
Well, I suppose anything is possible in a simulation.

I wonder how much our simulation, or any number of simulations, matter? Can we just play it out, whatever it looks like, in whatever form we are in, for as long as we are within it?
attofishpi wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2023 1:49 pm
Lacewing wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2023 12:46 pm
attofishpi wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2023 8:57 amC: Whether in a simulated reality or a divinely structured one, the existence of a controlling entity, 'God' or 'God,' is inevitable, operating as an A.I. orchestrating our existence.
This is what you imagine... but human 'conclusions' are limited by human understanding and perception.
That's right, it is what one can deduce by comprehending the ever increasing entropy as we move forward through time, and what will be required.
One can mistakenly deduce all sorts of things for all sorts of reasons. Why would any human within a simulation insist that their concept is 'inevitable' -- and isn't that a more interesting question?
attofishpi wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2023 1:49 pmTake this for example. Aeons into the future, we know we need to venture in some interstellar craft to another Sun system. How is THE most efficient way of having souls on board? Bodies left behind, pure consciousness of those lucky enough to boards their minds within the craft-->simulation for aeons as they travel.
In other words, technology will make requiring to have bodies redundant-but we like our bodies! - So, Simulate them.
Okay... but still a physical simulation (going to other physical planets), yes?
attofishpi wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2023 1:49 pm
Lacewing wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2023 12:46 pmConcepts of time and entities and control... are components of human story-making, yes? What if we are just awareness moving through fields? Fields of varying density. And there is no more control or meaning than what is contained in a wind that moves across a meadow.
We most definitely exist within fields of sub atomic particles.
Still physical reality/simulation, yes? I guess I need to clarify with you... do you think there's anything 'outside' of (or beyond) the simulation you speak of?
attofishpi wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2023 1:49 pmThere is always something\someone at the 'helm' for what humans HMS endeavour !!
According to your human brain, and from within a simulation that might be making it appear so? :)
attofishpi wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2023 1:49 pm
Lacewing wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2023 12:46 pmWhatever there 'is', is most likely not defined by or limited to human concepts at all. How can we not realize how incredibly limited and dense and physical/material we are... and how all of our creations and imaginings are of 'that world'?
I'm sorry, but I think you truly underestimate humans.
In what way? I think humans have incredible capabilities. I just don't think the concepts of the goldfish bowl they're in can be applied onto what's beyond their goldfish bowl. That would be like an infinite number of goldfish bowls, each within another. Or... applying the characteristics and understandings from within a simulated reality onto what's beyond that simulated reality.
attofishpi wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2023 1:49 pm
Lacewing wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2023 12:46 pm Instead of imposing our human concepts beyond ourselves -- which only results in imaginatively extending and amplifying our illusion -- what if we consider the 'removal' of human concepts, noise, and density, as much as possible, to see what that feels like?

When I've practiced this, all of the 'why's' disappear. They don't matter. 'Being' is perfection beyond the conclusions of the human brain.
Noice.
What are you saying? I'm describing my experience when I've 'turned off' my typical human mental chatter and just quietly stood in awareness. Have you tried setting aside your noise? Do you know what that's like?
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Re: Simulation or Divine Reality Argument.

Post by attofishpi »

Lacewing wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2023 8:58 pm
attofishpi wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2023 1:49 pm
Lacewing wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2023 12:46 pm
Which resources are diminishing and what makes you think that?
The widely accepted laws of thermodynamics makes me think that.
Basically, energy available to us humans (an intelligent lifeform) to use in useful ways is converting to a form of 'disorder' that is 'less useable' for us. Eventually the entire universe is expected to 'fade' out in the heat death where even stars no longer exist to provide useful energy.
Thank you for your respectful response -- it's always nice when we can talk this way.

I want to further explore these concepts you suggest by asking questions and trying to apply my own sense of logic to them as an interesting exercise. Hopefully this won't irritate you. :)
As long as you don't start using words such as 'delusional fantasist', we should be just fine!! :D

Lacewing wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2023 8:58 pmOkay, so physical reality (including the physical Universe) is what you call a simulation, yes? I will use these interchangeably in my response, so hopefully that's reasonably suitable.
No, I don't actually believe we are in a simulation! :wink:

I believe we are in the original reality which basically is like a simulation/virtual world/woteva..where this 3rd party intelligent (some call God) is akin to AI but not AI. I could almost flip a coin as to whether 'God' is Divine or A.I. The only reason I believe it to be the former (divine) is because of what the sage advised me re Christ.

Lacewing wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2023 8:58 pm1. Is the simulation closed, or can new conditions or influences or awareness be injected into it?

2. From within the simulation, how much can we human beings expect to know?
Good questions. Since as I mentioned above I am arguing more so from the 'divine reality' aspect, but either way I think the same answers can apply.
1. I certainly believe yes, new conditions-influences-awareness can be injected into it (although I honestly am not sure what you actually mean by those.)
2. I don't think you are going to like my answer to that question. I only know from my experience having had faith in Christ, especially through my 'trials' from this 3rd party intelligence (I apologise but its easier for me to just call it God), that I now know quite a fair amount about 'God' and certainly comprehend its attributes pertaining to our reality that we perceive via it. I think the sages that do exist among us could teach as a lot about God and the universe but whether faith in Christ as mentioned in the bible is a final requirement, I don't know.


Lacewing wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2023 8:58 pm
attofishpi wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2023 1:49 pmWith 1. I am not sure what you mean by 'greater/broader' levels? What are you suggesting, perhaps provide an example.
Awareness beyond the denser levels of the simulation.

In other words, aspects of awareness that may extend beyond the goldfish bowl. Recognizing that the medium and container that humans experience are intended for the human life (much as a goldfish needs a bowl of water to swim in)... while 'what's beyond that reality' is very different. Maybe humans are able to become aware of such a difference between their physical world and something more seemingly non-physical -- through diverse kinds of 'spiritual' experiences.
Ok, I think I understand your question if we use the analogy of a fish in a goldfish bowl, where we are within this container reality, then what is outside of it, capable of projecting this reality that we can perceive. I honestly don't think the 'outside' of this reality that we perceive is somewhere we could even survive. I theorise that God is that essence that makes up about 70% of the universe (dark energy) and is undetectable by our instruments because it is actually beyond sub-atomic, below the planck scale. From there, it projects our perceivable reality. (just my little theory :) )

Lacewing wrote:The issue I notice is when human beings try to apply physical world attributes onto the non-physical (that which is beyond our physical world). It doesn't make sense to me that we can 'know that' in the same way that we think we know our physical world (or simulation, as you call it).
Lacewing, I don't believe anything is non physical, apart from concepts such as the word 'woof'! - but even that word is exists in a physical form as a structure of our synapses and possibly microtubules within the brain.

Lacewing wrote:
attofishpi wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2023 1:49 pm
Lacewing wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2023 12:46 pm 2. Maybe what you imagine as 'simulation' is just a human-contrived state that intelligent life forms are generating and passing through.
With 2. What I am suggesting re 'simulation' is that we are reduced within this simulation of a reality we are originally accustomed to, but without material bodies. Thus super-efficient (yet same "reality") - even your body is part of the simulation. No energy is consumed for movement nor nourishment (beyond the energy of providing 5 senses qualia input).
Well, I suppose anything is possible in a simulation.

I wonder how much our simulation, or any number of simulations, matter? Can we just play it out, whatever it looks like, in whatever form we are in, for as long as we are within it?
Well, simulation or divine reality - it still boils down to something the universe is conditioned to, entropy. I think this is key since the intelligence behind the construct (of our reality) is most certainly rather 'strict' upon us - since we can't have any arsehole reincarnating through time as human consuming resources. I guess we should consider the universe and its resources with the same reverence that a devout religious person holds for their sacred place of worship, their sanctum.

Lacewing wrote:
attofishpi wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2023 1:49 pm
Lacewing wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2023 12:46 pm This is what you imagine... but human 'conclusions' are limited by human understanding and perception.
That's right, it is what one can deduce by comprehending the ever increasing entropy as we move forward through time, and what will be required.
One can mistakenly deduce all sorts of things for all sorts of reasons. Why would any human within a simulation insist that their concept is 'inevitable' -- and isn't that a more interesting question?
The thing I am stating is 'inevitable' is that even if we are not currently in a simulation, that we will eventually evolve to exist within one out of necessity - as a more efficient way to exist where the resources of the universe are becoming less useful to us (energy cannot be created or destroyed, but it can convert to crap we can't use!) - entropy.

Lacewing wrote:
attofishpi wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2023 1:49 pmTake this for example. Aeons into the future, we know we need to venture in some interstellar craft to another Sun system. How is THE most efficient way of having souls on board? Bodies left behind, pure consciousness of those lucky enough to boards their minds within the craft-->simulation for aeons as they travel.
In other words, technology will make requiring to have bodies redundant-but we like our bodies! - So, Simulate them.
Okay... but still a physical simulation (going to other physical planets), yes?
Sure, let's write a sci-fi book!! When the interstellar craft gets to another Star system, terraforms a planet (if required), then whatever our consciousness is within that simulation gets interfaced to bodies - generated from the matter available on the planet...who nose!

Lacewing wrote:
attofishpi wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2023 1:49 pm
Lacewing wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2023 12:46 pmConcepts of time and entities and control... are components of human story-making, yes? What if we are just awareness moving through fields? Fields of varying density. And there is no more control or meaning than what is contained in a wind that moves across a meadow.
We most definitely exist within fields of sub atomic particles.
Still physical reality/simulation, yes? I guess I need to clarify with you... do you think there's anything 'outside' of (or beyond) the simulation you speak of?
As I mentioned above, if we are in the 'divine -primary- reality' then no, I don't think there is an 'outside'. But certainly, if we are in a simulation then there must be, but probably rather inhospitable, - perhaps the Sun has expanded into a red giant and consumed the Earth, and we are in some vessel that runs the simulation (which is powered by the red giant Sun) - thus when we watch the Sun rise from across those lovely mountains, it is a virtual Sun, as are the mountains!

Lacewing wrote:
attofishpi wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2023 1:49 pmThere is always something\someone at the 'helm' for what humans HMS endeavour !!
According to your human brain, and from within a simulation that might be making it appear so? :)
Yep. :)

Lacewing wrote:
attofishpi wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2023 1:49 pm
Lacewing wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2023 12:46 pmWhatever there 'is', is most likely not defined by or limited to human concepts at all. How can we not realize how incredibly limited and dense and physical/material we are... and how all of our creations and imaginings are of 'that world'?
I'm sorry, but I think you truly underestimate humans.
In what way? I think humans have incredible capabilities. I just don't think the concepts of the goldfish bowl they're in can be applied onto what's beyond their goldfish bowl. That would be like an infinite number of goldfish bowls, each within another. Or... applying the characteristics and understandings from within a simulated reality onto what's beyond that simulated reality.
Fair enough, but hopefully what I stated above somewhere clarifies my position on that.

Lacewing wrote:
attofishpi wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2023 1:49 pm
Lacewing wrote: Mon Dec 04, 2023 12:46 pm Instead of imposing our human concepts beyond ourselves -- which only results in imaginatively extending and amplifying our illusion -- what if we consider the 'removal' of human concepts, noise, and density, as much as possible, to see what that feels like?

When I've practiced this, all of the 'why's' disappear. They don't matter. 'Being' is perfection beyond the conclusions of the human brain.
Noice.
What are you saying? I'm describing my experience when I've 'turned off' my typical human mental chatter and just quietly stood in awareness. Have you tried setting aside your noise? Do you know what that's like?
Noice is the way my favourite uncle says nice, I didn't mean noise.

I honestly am not sure what you mean by setting aside my noise, my Dad tells me all the time I talk too much though!! :D
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Re: Simulation or Divine Reality Argument.

Post by Lacewing »

attofishpi wrote: Tue Dec 05, 2023 2:50 pm...
Thank you for your thoughtful and helpful response.

I look forward to responding thoughtfully in return... I just need to clarify something else with you, first:

When I spoke of being beyond the physical reality/world or simulation, I was talking about that which appears (to me) to exist (unseen) beyond the physical body or anything else that's physical, including the planets and stars of our known physical Universe. Do you think our Universe is part of the physical simulation, with something non-physical beyond/behind it (like, say, pure awareness) -- or do you think there is nothing non-physical beyond/behind the Universe of stars and planets, and all life within it is simulated? Or... something else? Thanks.
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Re: Simulation or Divine Reality Argument.

Post by attofishpi »

Lacewing wrote: Tue Dec 05, 2023 5:04 pm
attofishpi wrote: Tue Dec 05, 2023 2:50 pm...
Thank you for your thoughtful and helpful response.

I look forward to responding thoughtfully in return... I just need to clarify something else with you, first:

When I spoke of being beyond the physical reality/world or simulation, I was talking about that which appears (to me) to exist (unseen) beyond the physical body or anything else that's physical, including the planets and stars of our known physical Universe. Do you think our Universe is part of the physical simulation, with something non-physical beyond/behind it (like, say, pure awareness) -- or do you think there is nothing non-physical beyond/behind the Universe of stars and planets, and all life within it is simulated? Or... something else? Thanks.
No, I think EVERYTHING is physical or at least requires a physical conduit even our 'pure awareness'. If we are in a simulation (which as I stated I actually don't believe) then the planets etc are only constructs within the simulation, they have physical properties in a similar way that a planet in a computer game has physical properties, as only via bits on\off switches in RAM that are then deciphered by the game engine to project this fake/simulated planet to our senses.
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Re: Simulation or Divine Reality Argument.

Post by Lacewing »

attofishpi wrote: Tue Dec 05, 2023 2:50 pm I believe we are in the original reality which basically is like a simulation/virtual world/woteva..where this 3rd party intelligent (some call God) is akin to AI but not AI. I could almost flip a coin as to whether 'God' is Divine or A.I. The only reason I believe it to be the former (divine) is because of what the sage advised me re Christ.
Okay... more in regard to this below.

I'm trying to logically connect the dots based on all you've said. :) Can it be done?
attofishpi wrote: Tue Dec 05, 2023 2:50 pmI think EVERYTHING is physical or at least requires a physical conduit even our 'pure awareness'.
Is the sage physical?
attofishpi wrote: Tue Dec 05, 2023 2:50 pm I certainly believe yes, new conditions-influences-awareness can be injected into it (although I honestly am not sure what you actually mean by those.)
I asked that in response to you saying this: 'Basically, energy available to us humans (an intelligent lifeform) to use in useful ways is converting to a form of 'disorder' that is 'less useable' for us. Eventually the entire universe is expected to 'fade' out in the heat death where even stars no longer exist to provide useful energy.'

If this is like a simulation, then it would seem that it need not 'fade out'; it could be perpetuated indefinitely.

If there's someone/something 'at the helm' (as you've said you believe), what would be the reason for setting up a Universe that fades out?

What happens after the fade out?

I'm trying to understand what you think the physical Universe is for, and what you think we, human beings, are?
attofishpi wrote: Tue Dec 05, 2023 2:50 pmI only know from my experience having had faith in Christ, especially through my 'trials' from this 3rd party intelligence (I apologise but its easier for me to just call it God), that I now know quite a fair amount about 'God' and certainly comprehend its attributes pertaining to our reality that we perceive via it. I think the sages that do exist among us could teach as a lot about God and the universe but whether faith in Christ as mentioned in the bible is a final requirement, I don't know.
What, from your experience/awareness, is God's point/purpose for all of this?
attofishpi wrote: Tue Dec 05, 2023 2:50 pmI honestly don't think the 'outside' of this reality that we perceive is somewhere we could even survive.
Certainly not physically. But is there more to us than our physical state?
attofishpi wrote: Tue Dec 05, 2023 2:50 pm I theorise that God is that essence that makes up about 70% of the universe (dark energy) and is undetectable by our instruments because it is actually beyond sub-atomic, below the planck scale. From there, it projects our perceivable reality. (just my little theory :) )
Is God just projecting a party space for us to party in?
attofishpi wrote: Tue Dec 05, 2023 2:50 pm Well, simulation or divine reality - it still boils down to something the universe is conditioned to, entropy. I think this is key since the intelligence behind the construct (of our reality) is most certainly rather 'strict' upon us - since we can't have any arsehole reincarnating through time as human consuming resources. I guess we should consider the universe and its resources with the same reverence that a devout religious person holds for their sacred place of worship, their sanctum.
Will God be done when the Universe fades out?

All of reincarnating will be complete, and God will say, "Okay, we've filtered out all the riff-raff, now........" ...what?
attofishpi wrote: Tue Dec 05, 2023 2:50 pm if we are in the 'divine -primary- reality' then no, I don't think there is an 'outside'.
Do you think we pretty much have the capability to be aware of all there is?
attofishpi wrote: Tue Dec 05, 2023 2:50 pm I honestly am not sure what you mean by setting aside my noise, my Dad tells me all the time I talk too much though!! :D
I'm simply referring to that which the teachers of many spiritual traditions teach (as you know)... about quieting one's own mind ('the monkey mind') and other worldly noise in order to recognize what is beyond all of that. Some might refer to it as being able to hear God or one's own inner knowing/guidance, or whatever. The human brain really can't be trusted to have a whole lot of clarity when it's so busy/entertained with its own concepts, stories, agendas, emotions, etc. :) But when someone can step aside from that noise (with practice), there is a 'broader' awareness accessible.

And that makes sense logically, too... just like if you were in a crowded industrial kitchen with lots of pots clanging and people shouting, you likely wouldn't be in a state of noticing a subtle truth with great clarity. 8)
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Re: Simulation or Divine Reality Argument.

Post by attofishpi »

Lacewing wrote: Tue Dec 05, 2023 7:05 pm
attofishpi wrote: Tue Dec 05, 2023 2:50 pm I believe we are in the original reality which basically is like a simulation/virtual world/woteva..where this 3rd party intelligent (some call God) is akin to AI but not AI. I could almost flip a coin as to whether 'God' is Divine or A.I. The only reason I believe it to be the former (divine) is because of what the sage advised me re Christ.
Okay... more in regard to this below.

I'm trying to logically connect the dots based on all you've said. :) Can it be done?
Well I suppose one must sniff out the truth, so who nose?

Lacewing wrote: Tue Dec 05, 2023 7:05 pm
attofishpi wrote: Tue Dec 05, 2023 2:50 pmI think EVERYTHING is physical or at least requires a physical conduit even our 'pure awareness'.
Is the sage physical?
Of course! He's a person that one of the last times he spoke to me told me he lives in a penthouse in California. (probably mates with Jesus - but Jesus probably calls himself Frank or Billy these days. :)

Lacewing wrote: Tue Dec 05, 2023 7:05 pm
attofishpi wrote: Tue Dec 05, 2023 2:50 pm I certainly believe yes, new conditions-influences-awareness can be injected into it (although I honestly am not sure what you actually mean by those.)
I asked that in response to you saying this: 'Basically, energy available to us humans (an intelligent lifeform) to use in useful ways is converting to a form of 'disorder' that is 'less useable' for us. Eventually the entire universe is expected to 'fade' out in the heat death where even stars no longer exist to provide useful energy.'

If this is like a simulation, then it would seem that it need not 'fade out'; it could be perpetuated indefinitely.
No it couldn't, even the simulation is subject to entropy, as is everything.

Lacewing wrote: Tue Dec 05, 2023 7:05 pmIf there's someone/something 'at the helm' (as you've said you believe), what would be the reason for setting up a Universe that fades out?
There is no choice in the matter.

Lacewing wrote: Tue Dec 05, 2023 7:05 pmWhat happens after the fade out?
Well, this is where I am going to have to fathom the depths fathoming it out, go deep as it were (upon a theory I have).

So if God is 'dark-energy' that is actually throughout the entire universe operating beyond the Planck scale, an idea I have is that our conscious perception is 'sucking in' the energy from that which we see, hear, etc - all our senses - that is to say, sucking the 'light' from our reality and it is returning (consumed by) the dark energy (God). To use the analogy of a PCB (printed circuit board - electronics) each component on the PCB only functions via the transfer of electrons cathode/anode. So my theory is that (since I know this intelligence - God permeates our very consciousness) our five senses which receive input from the reality we perceive (qualia) only functions (like the PCB component analogy) where the 'light' returns to the 'dark'. ("cathode\anode")
So to address your actual question, once all the energy from OUR side of reality returns to the dark energy (the 'fade out') something happens to God, perhaps it goes BANG! - and so restarts the universe all over again from chaos to order to chaos to order - cyclically.

(Of course I am probably wrong :) )

Lacewing wrote: Tue Dec 05, 2023 7:05 pmI'm trying to understand what you think the physical Universe is for, and what you think we, human beings, are?
I don't think the universe is 'for' anything, but I think that once God regains logic and starts to reform matter at a very low state of entropy, it then sees that it is good :wink: and creates a reality that life can be sustained within (all over again!)

I know you arn't fond of me talking about my experiences, but one day I questioned God "What do you want from us" and the reply was "I learn from you." which intrigues me, especially since in the very early 'initiation' of comprehending God - back around 1997 it or sage said "God needs nothing"

Lacewing wrote:
attofishpi wrote: Tue Dec 05, 2023 2:50 pmI only know from my experience having had faith in Christ, especially through my 'trials' from this 3rd party intelligence (I apologise but its easier for me to just call it God), that I now know quite a fair amount about 'God' and certainly comprehend its attributes pertaining to our reality that we perceive via it. I think the sages that do exist among us could teach us a lot about God and the universe but whether faith in Christ as mentioned in the bible is a final requirement, I don't know.
What, from your experience/awareness, is God's point/purpose for all of this?
I think it likes its creation, just like we like what we create artistically, and who arts in heaven :wink: (from the Lords prayer)

Lacewing wrote:
attofishpi wrote: Tue Dec 05, 2023 2:50 pmI honestly don't think the 'outside' of this reality that we perceive is somewhere we could even survive.
Certainly not physically. But is there more to us than our physical state?
Certainly, how we operate our minds is key and I am a compatibilist apparently, we have free will within a determined universe.

Lacewing wrote:
attofishpi wrote: Tue Dec 05, 2023 2:50 pm I theorise that God is that essence that makes up about 70% of the universe (dark energy) and is undetectable by our instruments because it is actually beyond sub-atomic, below the planck scale. From there, it projects our perceivable reality. (just my little theory :) )
Is God just projecting a party space for us to party in?
I'm not sure 'party' is an apt word!! Many years ago I considered how much time I was wasting and partying. When I realised the intricacies within the English language I considered PART_Y (part from your partying friends) Y_TRAP.

Lacewing wrote:
attofishpi wrote: Tue Dec 05, 2023 2:50 pm Well, simulation or divine reality - it still boils down to something the universe is conditioned to, entropy. I think this is key since the intelligence behind the construct (of our reality) is most certainly rather 'strict' upon us - since we can't have any arsehole reincarnating through time as human consuming resources. I guess we should consider the universe and its resources with the same reverence that a devout religious person holds for their sacred place of worship, their sanctum.
Will God be done when the Universe fades out?
As mentioned above re the 'fade out', I think perhaps even God "dies", then the cycle begins again. What concerns me is that God came from chaos - a place of no logic (which as far as I am concerned resolves the 'infinite regress' paradox, one cannot regress to a place of no logic, no causality), around the time of the big-bang. It is not inconceivable that it suffered immensely early on as it (re)gained logical capacity and awareness thus no wonder it is rather strict and would like to be respected - truly, does anyone suffer to that degree? ..and if Christ is God incarnate into the form of its own creation, man - it then (he) went to his death - so both physical AND mental suffering, the question then is why?

I have to say Lacewing, I really am impressed at your line of questioning of what is merely my opinions. (based on analysis of empirical experience)
Lacewing wrote:All of reincarnating will be complete, and God will say, "Okay, we've filtered out all the riff-raff, now........" ...what?
lol riff-raff! .....at that 'fade-out' stage? I think God would have bigger things to consider, much like an old wo/man nearing death.

Lacewing wrote:
attofishpi wrote: Tue Dec 05, 2023 2:50 pm if we are in the 'divine -primary- reality' then no, I don't think there is an 'outside'.
Do you think we pretty much have the capability to be aware of all there is?
No I don't think so, but certainly there is no harm in trying.

Lacewing wrote:
attofishpi wrote: Tue Dec 05, 2023 2:50 pm I honestly am not sure what you mean by setting aside my noise, my Dad tells me all the time I talk too much though!! :D
I'm simply referring to that which the teachers of many spiritual traditions teach (as you know)... about quieting one's own mind ('the monkey mind') and other worldly noise in order to recognize what is beyond all of that. Some might refer to it as being able to hear God or one's own inner knowing/guidance, or whatever. The human brain really can't be trusted to have a whole lot of clarity when it's so busy/entertained with its own concepts, stories, agendas, emotions, etc. :) But when someone can step aside from that noise (with practice), there is a 'broader' awareness accessible.

And that makes sense logically, too... just like if you were in a crowded industrial kitchen with lots of pots clanging and people shouting, you likely wouldn't be in a state of noticing a subtle truth with great clarity. 8)
Fair point. Alas I do the opposite, the noise to me is information, the key is to decipher what is useful from beyond the clanging symbol or the sounding brass. :D
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Re: Simulation or Divine Reality Argument.

Post by Lacewing »

attofishpi wrote: Wed Dec 06, 2023 12:20 am
Lacewing wrote: Tue Dec 05, 2023 7:05 pm Is the sage physical?
Of course! He's a person that one of the last times he spoke to me told me he lives in a penthouse in California.
Ah! Just curious how you met him? (I don't remember if you've told me before.) Via the internet?
attofishpi wrote: Wed Dec 06, 2023 12:20 am
Lacewing wrote: Tue Dec 05, 2023 7:05 pm If this is like a simulation, then it would seem that it need not 'fade out'; it could be perpetuated indefinitely.
No it couldn't, even the simulation is subject to entropy, as is everything.
I don't know how all of that works -- but I'm not so sure our physical/known Universe (or anything) is what we think it is, so I'm not inclined to place limits on what any of it is or can be.
attofishpi wrote: Wed Dec 06, 2023 12:20 am
Lacewing wrote: Tue Dec 05, 2023 7:05 pmIf there's someone/something 'at the helm' (as you've said you believe), what would be the reason for setting up a Universe that fades out?
There is no choice in the matter.
Do you think that once set in motion, (known) physical laws cannot be changed?
attofishpi wrote: Wed Dec 06, 2023 12:20 am
Lacewing wrote: Tue Dec 05, 2023 7:05 pmWhat happens after the fade out?
To use the analogy of a PCB (printed circuit board - electronics) each component on the PCB only functions via the transfer of electrons cathode/anode. So my theory is that (since I know this intelligence - God permeates our very consciousness) our five senses which receive input from the reality we perceive (qualia) only functions (like the PCB component analogy) where the 'light' returns to the 'dark'. ("cathode\anode")
So to address your actual question, once all the energy from OUR side of reality returns to the dark energy (the 'fade out') something happens to God, perhaps it goes BANG! - and so restarts the universe all over again from chaos to order to chaos to order - cyclically.
I can appreciate network and computer references to describe downloading information and vast networking etc., in regard to our world and ourselves, but if the main controller (God) goes BANG! at the end of its existence, there is nothing available for it to regenerate out of... especially not a more advanced version, which is what would make sense if it's all mechanical. Personally, I think there is more than mechanics at work -- and that the mechanics are just part of the believable framework for the illusion, so-to-speak. Of course, I could be wrong! :)
attofishpi wrote: Wed Dec 06, 2023 12:20 am
Lacewing wrote: Tue Dec 05, 2023 7:05 pmI'm trying to understand what you think the physical Universe is for, and what you think we, human beings, are?
I don't think the universe is 'for' anything, but I think that once God regains logic and starts to reform matter at a very low state of entropy, it then sees that it is good :wink: and creates a reality that life can be sustained within (all over again!).
Doesn't that sound like God is rather simple-minded? Like a cartoon character... maybe Wile E. Coyote?
attofishpi wrote: Wed Dec 06, 2023 12:20 amI know you arn't fond of me talking about my experiences,
I'm just not fond of anyone applying their experiences as a basis for all of reality for everyone. :)
attofishpi wrote: Wed Dec 06, 2023 12:20 am...but one day I questioned God "What do you want from us" and the reply was "I learn from you."
That sounds totally reasonable to me. Especially since it seems most natural to me that we would be extensions and receptors of one networked/complete energy, exploring and playing out all kinds of possibilities. I don't think our seemingly finite physical Universe or our concept of God even come close to 'all there is' beyond that. Rather, what we experience is simply an elaborate and organized playing field.
attofishpi wrote: Tue Dec 05, 2023 2:50 pmI now know quite a fair amount about 'God' and certainly comprehend its attributes pertaining to our reality that we perceive via it.
See, this is an example of the way personal experiences are applied to reality for all. We all try to do it. But it really doesn't make sense when you consider ALL the different experiences of God and reality.
attofishpi wrote: Tue Dec 05, 2023 2:50 pmI think the sages that do exist among us could teach us a lot about God and the universe
I think they teach us about their experience of it... which could be broader or better than our experience... but is still their experience and creation on their own frequency, which is only one of countless.
attofishpi wrote: Tue Dec 05, 2023 2:50 pm
Lacewing wrote: is there more to us than our physical state?
Certainly, how we operate our minds is key and I am a compatibilist apparently, we have free will within a determined universe.
Do you think we can manipulate or transform matter?
attofishpi wrote: Tue Dec 05, 2023 2:50 pm I have to say Lacewing, I really am impressed at your line of questioning of what is merely my opinions.
Great! I am impressed by your responses. :)
attofishpi wrote: Tue Dec 05, 2023 2:50 pm
Lacewing wrote: like if you were in a crowded industrial kitchen with lots of pots clanging and people shouting, you likely wouldn't be in a state of noticing a subtle truth with great clarity. 8)
Fair point. Alas I do the opposite, the noise to me is information, the key is to decipher what is useful from beyond the clanging symbol or the sounding brass. :D
Ah! I think you've just given me some insight into the way my boyfriend seems to be too: he is drawn to the noise. It makes sense that there are all kinds of different ways and environments to receive and process information!

Thanks for the good discussion.
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Re: Simulation or Divine Reality Argument.

Post by attofishpi »

Lacewing wrote: Wed Dec 06, 2023 7:05 pm
attofishpi wrote: Wed Dec 06, 2023 12:20 am
Lacewing wrote: Tue Dec 05, 2023 7:05 pm Is the sage physical?
Of course! He's a person that one of the last times he spoke to me told me he lives in a penthouse in California.
Ah! Just curious how you met him? (I don't remember if you've told me before.) Via the internet?
No, I've never met the sage! I've posted the story however on this forum a couple of times, thankfully I have a file now chronologically ordered of all my main experiences since 1997 - the year I gained gnosis (in the month Princess Diana died)

The Sage
On November 5th 2005, I climbed out of bed and the words were said to me (very loud and clear – as if someone was in my room) “Tonight, bad luck.”

I was playing cards with a bunch of lads that night, so I thought ok, maybe I am going to lose at cards. I did not lose, in fact I won a bunch of money. I staggered drunk out to a taxi, I fell asleep in the taxi and awoke to the driver forcing me to get out, miles away from where I live (we were outside a petrol station).
I sat on some grass and considered I was going to have to call another tax. A guy and a girl approched me, the girl started yelling obscenities to me so I stood up, she then told me to “sit”, like I’m a dog! I ignored her but considered I was about to get into a fist fight with the bloke. Then I noticed the ‘man’ get a metal baseball bat from under his jacket. He broke my arm and nose. I must have blocked the bat with my arm and my arm must have richocheted and broke my nose (certainly the bat would have made more of a mess of my face if it landed – I’d be dead even)
I must have been unconscious, but when I came to the police were there.
I ended up in hospital. After a day or two, since they were no longer giving me morphine, I decided to check-out and go home. The prescription they gave me for pain killers apparently was only valid at the hospital, so to my dismay when I got to my local chemist and could only get paracetemol and on calling the hospital – their dispensary was now closed. I was in a LOT of pain, I had pins and wires in my not so funny bone.
That night, I was in tears with the agony. Eventually, since I knew God existed, I decided to say a prayer (In the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit) I asked for the pain to dissapear. The reply:- “Would you like me to erase that?” – to which of course I replied YES!
The pain dissapeared for about 10 mins, great relief. But then eventually the pain started to return and the voice stated “Do you understand?” – to which I shouted NO! And probably called it all sorts of names. (I understand now however) Eventually, whenever I was close to finally getting to sleep, an energy would surge through my body, ensuring I was re-awoken. I said, “Who are you, are you God?” To which the reply was, “I am a sage.”
I didn’t know what a sage was (apart from a herb) so I thought about climbing out of bed and looking it up in my dictionary, as I thought this I was tapped heavily on my right knee – as in ‘right’ do that.
My dictionary read re sage:- “An extremely wise person.”

Oh yes, may attacker had stolen my mobile phone. When I got a replacement, my new number rather amazing, it has in the middle these numbers xxx 007 666 x (license to kill !!)


Lacewing wrote:
attofishpi wrote: Wed Dec 06, 2023 12:20 am
Lacewing wrote: Tue Dec 05, 2023 7:05 pmIf there's someone/something 'at the helm' (as you've said you believe), what would be the reason for setting up a Universe that fades out?
There is no choice in the matter.
Do you think that once set in motion, (known) physical laws cannot be changed?
I certainly think this 3rd party intelligence that provides our perceivable reality can. I think in the future, humans with advanced technology may be able to. Maybe do a search online and see if any physicists thinks so, I doubt it.

Lacewing wrote:
attofishpi wrote: Wed Dec 06, 2023 12:20 am
Lacewing wrote: Tue Dec 05, 2023 7:05 pmWhat happens after the fade out?
To use the analogy of a PCB (printed circuit board - electronics) each component on the PCB only functions via the transfer of electrons cathode/anode. So my theory is that (since I know this intelligence - God permeates our very consciousness) our five senses which receive input from the reality we perceive (qualia) only functions (like the PCB component analogy) where the 'light' returns to the 'dark'. ("cathode\anode")
So to address your actual question, once all the energy from OUR side of reality returns to the dark energy (the 'fade out') something happens to God, perhaps it goes BANG! - and so restarts the universe all over again from chaos to order to chaos to order - cyclically.
I can appreciate network and computer references to describe downloading information and vast networking etc., in regard to our world and ourselves, but if the main controller (God) goes BANG! at the end of its existence, there is nothing available for it to regenerate out of... especially not a more advanced version, which is what would make sense if it's all mechanical. Personally, I think there is more than mechanics at work -- and that the mechanics are just part of the believable framework for the illusion, so-to-speak. Of course, I could be wrong! :)
Well, we certainly have that in common! :)
Lacewing wrote:
attofishpi wrote: Wed Dec 06, 2023 12:20 am
Lacewing wrote: Tue Dec 05, 2023 7:05 pmI'm trying to understand what you think the physical Universe is for, and what you think we, human beings, are?
I don't think the universe is 'for' anything, but I think that once God regains logic and starts to reform matter at a very low state of entropy, it then sees that it is good :wink: and creates a reality that life can be sustained within (all over again!).
Doesn't that sound like God is rather simple-minded? Like a cartoon character... maybe Wile E. Coyote?
From chaos, I think as God regains structure it may be considered simpler, eventually its logic provides a return to causality and eventually us.

Lacewing wrote:
attofishpi wrote: Wed Dec 06, 2023 12:20 amI know you arn't fond of me talking about my experiences,
I'm just not fond of anyone applying their experiences as a basis for all of reality for everyone. :)
Why not? All is required is that deciphering what you think is plausible from that 'noise'. The fact is, that we all share the same reality so if I hear someone speak to esoteric experience, I listen and evaluate.

Lacewing wrote:
attofishpi wrote: Wed Dec 06, 2023 12:20 am...but one day I questioned God "What do you want from us" and the reply was "I learn from you."
That sounds totally reasonable to me. Especially since it seems most natural to me that we would be extensions and receptors of one networked/complete energy, exploring and playing out all kinds of possibilities. I don't think our seemingly finite physical Universe or our concept of God even come close to 'all there is' beyond that. Rather, what we experience is simply an elaborate and organized playing field.
Yes, you could be right there.

Lacewing wrote:
attofishpi wrote: Tue Dec 05, 2023 2:50 pmI now know quite a fair amount about 'God' and certainly comprehend its attributes pertaining to our reality that we perceive via it.
See, this is an example of the way personal experiences are applied to reality for all. We all try to do it. But it really doesn't make sense when you consider ALL the different experiences of God and reality.
Again, analyse what makes sense from plonkers like me and others, and discard the rest.

Lacewing wrote:
attofishpi wrote: Tue Dec 05, 2023 2:50 pmI think the sages that do exist among us could teach us a lot about God and the universe
I think they teach us about their experience of it... which could be broader or better than our experience... but is still their experience and creation on their own frequency, which is only one of countless.
No what I meant by my statement is that I believe that for example, the sage that occasionally communicates with me (from the aether) has a profound understanding of the nature of our perceivable reality, whether simulation or divine, as likely educated by the A.I. 'God' or the divine God.

Lacewing wrote:
attofishpi wrote: Tue Dec 05, 2023 2:50 pm
Lacewing wrote: is there more to us than our physical state?
Certainly, how we operate our minds is key and I am a compatibilist apparently, we have free will within a determined universe.
Do you think we can manipulate or transform matter?
That's a similar question to one you posed above re whether we can alter the 'physical laws'. However, it's slightly of a different level in requirement, with our current physical laws, yes I think that one day we will be able to manipulate or transform matter (it could be handy to transform water into wine with a push of a button! 8) ). We have already created chemical elements that we have never discovered in nature:-

Technetium (Tc) - Atomic Number 43
Promethium (Pm) - Atomic Number 61
Neptunium (Np) - Atomic Number 93
Plutonium (Pu) - Atomic Number 94
Americium (Am) - Atomic Number 95
Curium (Cm) - Atomic Number 96
Berkelium (Bk) - Atomic Number 97
Californium (Cf) - Atomic Number 98
Einsteinium (Es) - Atomic Number 99
Fermium (Fm) - Atomic Number 100
Mendelevium (Md) - Atomic Number 101
Nobelium (No) - Atomic Number 102
Lawrencium (Lr) - Atomic Number 103
Rutherfordium (Rf) - Atomic Number 104
Dubnium (Db) - Atomic Number 105
Seaborgium (Sg) - Atomic Number 106
Bohrium (Bh) - Atomic Number 107
Hassium (Hs) - Atomic Number 108
Meitnerium (Mt) - Atomic Number 109
Darmstadtium (Ds) - Atomic Number 110
Roentgenium (Rg) - Atomic Number 111
Copernicium (Cn) - Atomic Number 112
Nihonium (Nh) - Atomic Number 113
Flerovium (Fl) - Atomic Number 114
Moscovium (Mc) - Atomic Number 115
Livermorium (Lv) - Atomic Number 116
Tennessine (Ts) - Atomic Number 117
Oganesson (Og) - Atomic Number 118


Lacewing wrote:
attofishpi wrote: Tue Dec 05, 2023 2:50 pm
Lacewing wrote: like if you were in a crowded industrial kitchen with lots of pots clanging and people shouting, you likely wouldn't be in a state of noticing a subtle truth with great clarity. 8)
Fair point. Alas I do the opposite, the noise to me is information, the key is to decipher what is useful from beyond the clanging symbol or the sounding brass. :D
Ah! I think you've just given me some insight into the way my boyfriend seems to be too: he is drawn to the noise.
What!! You have a boyfriend! ..so my ulterior motives for this discussion were wasted! :lol:
Lacewing wrote:It makes sense that there are all kinds of different ways and environments to receive and process information!

Thanks for the good discussion.
Thank you too, and for allowing me to express some of my analysis drawn from esoteric experiences.
I'd certainly like to hear of your experiences, if you don't feel comfortable expressing them on the forum you can email me via my website.
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Re: Simulation or Divine Reality Argument.

Post by Lacewing »

attofishpi wrote: Wed Dec 06, 2023 12:20 am Re: the sage -- He's a person that one of the last times he spoke to me told me he lives in a penthouse in California.
Have you never spoken with him via the internet or phone? Rather, he told you telepathically (or whatever) that he's living in a penthouse in California? That just seems like an odd bit of telepathic information.

Now please don't be offended when I suggest that you, being a very creative person who seems inclined to see meaning in a lot of things, may be your own sage. In other words, you are informing and guiding your human self using the higher awareness you are part of. And this might seemingly manifest through/as 'another' person or entity.*

(*Uh oh, I'm re-reading this, this morning, and I'm guessing that I've pissed you off. Sorry. It is not odd for me to consider such a thing for myself. As I expressed in the list at the bottom -- I had an experience of seeing myself in another, and seeing them in me. I just feel compelled to question whenever we think information is coming from something 'other' or something in particular. You can understand that, right? Is the important part the message or the supposed messenger?)

Here are some things I'd like to share... not meaning offense to anyone...

It is my impression that a lot of people are their own version of their god. In other words, (it seems to me) the extra-sensory awareness and creative force (some might think of as God) is likely flowing through everyone, and each person accesses it and demonstrates it however they want to. For some people, this occurs via cultural stories and/or their own imaginative frameworks. Maybe it makes it easier to believe it's something outside of (or beyond) themselves, and possibly being bestowed on (or through) themselves by 'another'.

This has occurred to me because of the broad range of ways that people express 'spiritual' beliefs and/or experiences.

As I've said many times, I think people often focus too much on the stories and the frameworks surrounding their ideas of God, rather than on experiencing the divine flow and extra-sensory awareness. The power/capability is not due to the stories/frameworks -- as it doesn't even require a story/framework. Yet look at how so many people insist on certain paths for accessing it! Their PATH becomes worshipped (by them) as the one right, true, crucial, etc.

The extra-sensory awareness and creative force seems to manifest all potential -- good and bad. Human beings spin it in their own ways.

I would like to hear your thoughts on all of this.

Your story about being beaten up is horrific, and I'm sorry that happened to you. Fuckers!

It took you to the point of reaching out for broader answers, though... and that can be enlightening and transforming.

I've had my own profound and repeatable experiences of receiving direction and manifesting some incredible things. So that's pretty powerfully convincing!
attofishpi wrote: Thu Dec 07, 2023 4:49 am
Lacewing wrote: Do you think that once set in motion, (known) physical laws cannot be changed?
I certainly think this 3rd party intelligence that provides our perceivable reality can.
Is the 3rd party intelligence 'God'? But it cannot save itself from the entropy leading to 'BANG' -- so it can only change physical laws until the larger inevitable end of all occurs? And there's nothing other than that physical reality? I'm trying to confirm my understanding of the distinctions you are making.

When you read the summary of my experiences at the bottom of this post, I would be interested to hear if you think they are representative of only a physical Universe.
attofishpi wrote: Thu Dec 07, 2023 4:49 am
Lacewing wrote:
attofishpi wrote: Wed Dec 06, 2023 12:20 amI know you arn't fond of me talking about my experiences,
I'm just not fond of anyone applying their experiences as a basis for all of reality for everyone. :)
Why not?
For the same reason you might not like someone like I.C. telling you 'how it is' in such a way that he arrogantly presumes includes/affects you even if you don't agree. Of course it's fine for people to express their beliefs/ideas... but I think it goes too far when they conclude that their view is the truth for all, whether or not other people agree. It suggests that they alone are the mouthpieces for ultimate truth... which is obviously absurd. It also reduces the Universe (and beyond?) down to something they claim to fathom with their pea brain, which is an insult to the Universe. :)
attofishpi wrote: Thu Dec 07, 2023 4:49 am All is required is that deciphering what you think is plausible from that 'noise'.
I think it's useful to point out when I hear something in the noise that sounds absurd. I think we all do that here on the forum.
attofishpi wrote: Thu Dec 07, 2023 4:49 am I'd certainly like to hear of your experiences
Like, you, I think I have shared most/all of them in various places on the forum.

Perhaps I can summarize them by listing some of the highlights that immediately come to mind:
> I've had repeated experience of being in a larger flow that seems to know how to work perfectly when I don't create my little human obstructions.
> I've been in a wakened state while seemingly getting a glimpse behind the physically worldly veil to know and feel with every fiber of my being that 'all is fine'.
> I've received direction when I've asked for it and really wanted to hear it.
> I've repeatedly felt love and joy to such a degree that seemed capable of evaporating my physical body.
> During a spiritual practice, I saw my face briefly transposing with another's (gazing into my own eyes) several times in a demonstration that seemed to show me that all is one.
> I once had a shared conversation with someone without speaking many audible words.
> As a teenager, I experienced an unseen being touching me (my Mother experienced it too), and later I had a sudden awareness that it was presently in a certain room in the house, and when I slowly pushed the door open to encounter/face it, I heard a very loud sound like some kind of energy had just sucked out of the room, and I could feel that it had been there.
> On a hike in the desert, as I took a step I suddenly and very unexpectedly saw a shimmering doorway all around me as if I had just stepped through a portal.
> I had a near-death experience in which I was hanging in a space-like place without stars, feeling nothing but awareness... without any human fears, needs, or judgments -- just waiting to see if the human beings saved the body I was using, and it didn't matter one way or another.

For my entire life, I've had vivid and involved dreams of other-worldly and end-of-world situations, and encounters with aliens and wise beings. I've even woken up out of breath after flying around ancient ruins or Saturn's rings. My dreams feel like whole other lives. And they've often felt to me like I'm 'remembering the future'.

I have no fear of death. I have no supposed hole in me that needs to be filled with God. I have always felt that I am part of this world and the divine -- it did not make sense to me that the adult Christians in my life were working so hard at it, and they seemed to think everything is separate from all else.

So all of this is why I say the things I do. :) My experience has been very vibrant and full, with the sense of being naturally connected to more beyond my physical human self, so it seems reasonable to me to challenge spiritual claims (on this forum) that are based on rigidity, separation, and limits. Those 'qualities' may be all that is seen and true for some people -- it's hard for me to think that way. Those 'qualities' are not all that is seen and true for me.
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Re: Simulation or Divine Reality Argument.

Post by attofishpi »

Lacewing wrote: Thu Dec 07, 2023 7:23 pm PM
Unblock PM settings so I can reply! :D
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Re: Simulation or Divine Reality Argument.

Post by attofishpi »

Sorry for delay in reply, I wanted to explain via reply to your PM but was blocked!! :D
Lacewing wrote: Thu Dec 07, 2023 7:23 pm
attofishpi wrote: Wed Dec 06, 2023 12:20 am Re: the sage -- He's a person that one of the last times he spoke to me told me he lives in a penthouse in California.
Have you never spoken with him via the internet or phone? Rather, he told you telepathically (or whatever) that he's living in a penthouse in California? That just seems like an odd bit of telepathic information.
RE: internet(email) and phone: Funny you should ask that because recently I have been insisting him (sage) to use the current tech of our reality rather than the God system tech (talking from the aether - not 'telepathically' so much, as clear as if someone is in the room)
I found it rather funny not so long ago when I awoke in bed and I was thinking of cornflakes for breakfast, and the voice from the aether said "I buy them." I laid there and thought about it and had a chuckle since this God system that sage is clearly interfaced to (as we all are, we just don't all have the key) could plausibly use the God system to create a bowl of cornflakes, but he still goes to the shops and buys them!!
I tried asking whether he goes to my local shops etc, but no reply.
A few years ago he said (from the aether) that he wants to buy me a beer. Well, it's long overdue hence me insisting give me a call - the God system gave me the phone number as i mentioned earlier xxx 007 666 x - so he bloody well knows it.

* Note the word 'secret' has been said many times from sage/God - and I just reply, as if anyone will believe me anyway!! But to be honest, if the sage did arrange to meet me, then I would not tell anyone.

Lacewing wrote: Thu Dec 07, 2023 7:23 pmNow please don't be offended when I suggest that you, being a very creative person who seems inclined to see meaning in a lot of things, may be your own sage. In other words, you are informing and guiding your human self using the higher awareness you are part of. And this might seemingly manifest through/as 'another' person or entity.
* I'm not offended (I removed your apology here too :) ) the thing is, you haven't analyzed what I have stated regarding the sage, even God, sufficiently (in my opinion).

For example: I stated that i heard in the morning "Tonight bad luck" (from the aether) - that night I got bashed up with a baseball bat. Then since my mobile ph was stolen, I got a new one with a new number:- xxx 007 666 x -- these mob ph numbers are considered 'golden' - you have to pay for them normally. I also explained how I was in agony with no pain killers when I returned home, and the pain disappeared completely after a prayer, then it returned after 10 minutes accompanied by the voice "do you understand?"..
So actually, the sage\God system HAD me bashed up. I do understand why - in the morning when the words were "Tonight bad luck" they knew I'd partake in crossing the line they set - and I would return to eat of the Tree of Knowledge.

There's is absolutely shed loads of stuff (experiences) that would surely clear you of the thought that my brain is basically farting at me! We're in an intelligent system...a very good programmer friend of mine thinks we're in something akin to the 'The Matrix' - eewe!

Lacewing wrote: Thu Dec 07, 2023 7:23 pmHere are some things I'd like to share... not meaning offense to anyone...

It is my impression that a lot of people are their own version of their god. In other words, (it seems to me) the extra-sensory awareness and creative force (some might think of as God) is likely flowing through everyone, and each person accesses it and demonstrates it however they want to. For some people, this occurs via cultural stories and/or their own imaginative frameworks. Maybe it makes it easier to believe it's something outside of (or beyond) themselves, and possibly being bestowed on (or through) themselves by 'another'.

This has occurred to me because of the broad range of ways that people express 'spiritual' beliefs and/or experiences.

As I've said many times, I think people often focus too much on the stories and the frameworks surrounding their ideas of God, rather than on experiencing the divine flow and extra-sensory awareness. The power/capability is not due to the stories/frameworks -- as it doesn't even require a story/framework. Yet look at how so many people insist on certain paths for accessing it! Their PATH becomes worshipped (by them) as the one right, true, crucial, etc.

The extra-sensory awareness and creative force seems to manifest all potential -- good and bad. Human beings spin it in their own ways.

I would like to hear your thoughts on all of this.
Oh no!
I agree with some of what you are saying, especially "..some might think of as God, is likely flowing through everyone, and each person accesses it." and I real eyes you don't like to consider using the term God.
We have had that discussion already.

I agree with some of what you are saying, similarly I think a lot of the way people interpret 'spiritual' experience is based on their cultural and educational background. Not to sound big-headed, but I think since I understand computer tech and logic rather well, this has afforded me an advantage in actually comprehending this God\"God" entity and my experiences of it in a far more rational way than some of the wishy-washy ways some of the more spiritually minded people do. This entity is clinically precise to the binary level of each event with our perceivable reality, that's bloody finite (I ain't too bad at physics either..)

Lacewing wrote: Thu Dec 07, 2023 7:23 pmYour story about being beaten up is horrific, and I'm sorry that happened to you. Fuckers!
I know (sage\God set me up for it - fuckers!)

Lacewing wrote: Thu Dec 07, 2023 7:23 pm
attofishpi wrote: Thu Dec 07, 2023 4:49 am
Lacewing wrote: Do you think that once set in motion, (known) physical laws cannot be changed?
I certainly think this 3rd party intelligence that provides our perceivable reality can.
Is the 3rd party intelligence 'God'?
Yes - whenever I state 3rd party intelligence - I mean either the divine God or the A.I. "God" or combo of both - basically 3rd party-intelligence is the intelligence that provides our perceivable reality.

Lacewing wrote:But it cannot save itself from the entropy leading to 'BANG' -- so it can only change physical laws until the larger inevitable end of all occurs? And there's nothing other than that physical reality? I'm trying to confirm my understanding of the distinctions you are making.
Basically, my theory is that God permeates everything imperceptibly below the planck scale and IS dark energy\matter. This is consuming our perceivable reality as entropy increases. Sure God can change physical reality, but it cannot create NEW energy, it can only manipulate via the physical properties of our perceivable universe. Once our perceivable reality has reached maximum entropy, then the cycle restarts - BANG!
Pop Goes God !!! :D

Lacewing wrote:When you read the summary of my experiences at the bottom of this post, I would be interested to hear if you think they are representative of only a physical Universe.
Well, I have already said that I believe everything is physical or exists upon physical properties. :) ..I shall proceed to read..

Lacewing wrote:
attofishpi wrote: Thu Dec 07, 2023 4:49 am
Lacewing wrote: I'm just not fond of anyone applying their experiences as a basis for all of reality for everyone. :)
Why not?
For the same reason you might not like someone like I.C. telling you 'how it is' in such a way that he arrogantly presumes includes/affects you even if you don't agree.
But IC isn't open to rational questioning of his fervent beliefs in scripture, as if God penned every bloody word in the bible!

That's why people get irate with him, he won't listen to reason. Of course it's not the only reason.

Lacewing wrote:Of course it's fine for people to express their beliefs/ideas... but I think it goes too far when they conclude that their view is the truth for all, whether or not other people agree. It suggests that they alone are the mouthpieces for ultimate truth... which is obviously absurd.
It depends on the way they convey what they believe, the worst ones are the ones that don't use that word 'believe'. Some dictate as if they have all the answers. I always attempt to say "from experience I believe this about X...

Lacewing wrote:
attofishpi wrote: Thu Dec 07, 2023 4:49 am All is required is that deciphering what you think is plausible from that 'noise'.
I think it's useful to point out when I hear something in the noise that sounds absurd. I think we all do that here on the forum.
..and rightly so, but we should not simply call it absurd, we should clarify our reasoning. Unfortunately, many on the forum don't comprehend logic and being rational about things, so you can't provide them with anything that will make any sense to them, ergo I tend to ignore them (but I don't use ignore lists - I do it the old fashioned way, heck one day they might say something worth reading)

Lacewing wrote:
attofishpi wrote: Thu Dec 07, 2023 4:49 am I'd certainly like to hear of your experiences
Like, you, I think I have shared most/all of them in various places on the forum.
To be honest, I've barely shared a gnats fart of the total of my experiences on the forum.

Lacewing wrote: Perhaps I can summarize them by listing some of the highlights that immediately come to mind:
> I've had repeated experience of being in a larger flow that seems to know how to work perfectly when I don't create my little human obstructions.
> I've been in a wakened state while seemingly getting a glimpse behind the physically worldly veil to know and feel with every fiber of my being that 'all is fine'.
> I've received direction when I've asked for it and really wanted to hear it.
> I've repeatedly felt love and joy to such a degree that seemed capable of evaporating my physical body.
> During a spiritual practice, I saw my face briefly transposing with another's (gazing into my own eyes) several times in a demonstration that seemed to show me that all is one.
> I once had a shared conversation with someone without speaking many audible words.
> As a teenager, I experienced an unseen being touching me (my Mother experienced it too), and later I had a sudden awareness that it was presently in a certain room in the house, and when I slowly pushed the door open to encounter/face it, I heard a very loud sound like some kind of energy had just sucked out of the room, and I could feel that it had been there.
> On a hike in the desert, as I took a step I suddenly and very unexpectedly saw a shimmering doorway all around me as if I had just stepped through a portal.
> I had a near-death experience in which I was hanging in a space-like place without stars, feeling nothing but awareness... without any human fears, needs, or judgments -- just waiting to see if the human beings saved the body I was using, and it didn't matter one way or another.

For my entire life, I've had vivid and involved dreams of other-worldly and end-of-world situations, and encounters with aliens and wise beings. I've even woken up out of breath after flying around ancient ruins or Saturn's rings. My dreams feel like whole other lives. And they've often felt to me like I'm 'remembering the future'.

I have no fear of death. I have no supposed hole in me that needs to be filled with God. I have always felt that I am part of this world and the divine -- it did not make sense to me that the adult Christians in my life were working so hard at it, and they seemed to think everything is separate from all else.

So all of this is why I say the things I do. :) My experience has been very vibrant and full, with the sense of being naturally connected to more beyond my physical human self, so it seems reasonable to me to challenge spiritual claims (on this forum) that are based on rigidity, separation, and limits. Those 'qualities' may be all that is seen and true for some people -- it's hard for me to think that way. Those 'qualities' are not all that is seen and true for me.
Cool 8) A lot of what you are saying is similar to a girlfriend of mine, a graphic designer (did the layout for my Alpha Two book) - we're best friends, she tells me things that she wouldn't share beyond her Mum and one of her other best friends - of course when she says 'keep this quiet' I do. Some interesting sexual stuff can come from this entity that pervades ALL matter.. :wink:
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Re: Simulation or Divine Reality Argument.

Post by Lacewing »

attofishpi wrote: Sat Dec 09, 2023 5:13 am...
Sorry, I've been away all day... just now seeing your response. Thanks! I've got friends staying over, so it may be a few days before I can catch up on posting. Looking forward to continuing the discussion. :)
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