## The Kalam Cosmological Argument - William Lane Craig

So what's really going on?

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bahman
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### Re: The Kalam Cosmological Argument - William Lane Craig

Atla wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 2:52 pm
bahman wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 2:46 pm
Atla wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 2:33 pm
Why not? It's the only logical assumption as far as I can tell. (Besides as you know, there is only spacetime, it's one thing, you can't extract time from it.)
To be precise the spacetime is boundless. Time within spacetime has a beginning but no end.
Ok, I disagree. Let's say the universe started with the Big Bang and ends with the Big Crunch. The only logical view is that time is circular, one possibility is that the Big Bang and the Big Crunch are one and the same point in time (no eternal return / no cyclic cosmology).

What justification is there for deviating from the above logical picture, as the default assumption?
The cyclic universe is a universe in which the Big Bang and the Big Crush are at the same point in time with the exception of the first Big Bang. The cycle can go into the future endlessly but not into the past.
Atla
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Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:27 am

### Re: The Kalam Cosmological Argument - William Lane Craig

bahman wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 3:02 pm
Atla wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 2:52 pm
bahman wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 2:46 pm
To be precise the spacetime is boundless. Time within spacetime has a beginning but no end.
Ok, I disagree. Let's say the universe started with the Big Bang and ends with the Big Crunch. The only logical view is that time is circular, one possibility is that the Big Bang and the Big Crunch are one and the same point in time (no eternal return / no cyclic cosmology).

What justification is there for deviating from the above logical picture, as the default assumption?
The cyclic universe is a universe in which the Big Bang and the Big Crush are at the same point in time with the exception of the first Big Bang. The cycle can go into the future endlessly but not into the past.
Again: no cyclic cosmology.
bahman
Posts: 8791
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:52 pm

### Re: The Kalam Cosmological Argument - William Lane Craig

Atla wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 3:03 pm
bahman wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 3:02 pm
Atla wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 2:52 pm
Ok, I disagree. Let's say the universe started with the Big Bang and ends with the Big Crunch. The only logical view is that time is circular, one possibility is that the Big Bang and the Big Crunch are one and the same point in time (no eternal return / no cyclic cosmology).

What justification is there for deviating from the above logical picture, as the default assumption?
The cyclic universe is a universe in which the Big Bang and the Big Crush are at the same point in time with the exception of the first Big Bang. The cycle can go into the future endlessly but not into the past.
Again: no cyclic cosmology.
The cyclic universe in which there is no beginning in time is wrong for an obvious reason: You cannot reach from a point in the eternal past to now since infinity by definition is unreachable.
Atla
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Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:27 am

### Re: The Kalam Cosmological Argument - William Lane Craig

bahman wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 3:06 pm
Atla wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 3:03 pm
bahman wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 3:02 pm
The cyclic universe is a universe in which the Big Bang and the Big Crush are at the same point in time with the exception of the first Big Bang. The cycle can go into the future endlessly but not into the past.
Again: no cyclic cosmology.
The cyclic universe in which there is no beginning in time is wrong for an obvious reason: You cannot reach from a point in the eternal past to now since infinity by definition is unreachable.
Again: no cyclic cosmology. Cyclic cosmology is for kids. Time is not circular in cyclic cosmology but it's the standard linear time.
bahman
Posts: 8791
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:52 pm

### Re: The Kalam Cosmological Argument - William Lane Craig

Atla wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 3:09 pm
bahman wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 3:06 pm
Atla wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 3:03 pm
Again: no cyclic cosmology.
The cyclic universe in which there is no beginning in time is wrong for an obvious reason: You cannot reach from a point in the eternal past to now since infinity by definition is unreachable.
Again: no cyclic cosmology. Cyclic cosmology is for kids. Time is not circular in cyclic cosmology but it's the standard linear time.
Circular or linear time, either way, time has a beginning for an obvious reason as I stated: You cannot reach from a point in the eternal past to now since infinity by definition is unreachable.
Atla
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Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:27 am

### Re: The Kalam Cosmological Argument - William Lane Craig

bahman wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 3:20 pm
Atla wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 3:09 pm
bahman wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 3:06 pm
The cyclic universe in which there is no beginning in time is wrong for an obvious reason: You cannot reach from a point in the eternal past to now since infinity by definition is unreachable.
Again: no cyclic cosmology. Cyclic cosmology is for kids. Time is not circular in cyclic cosmology but it's the standard linear time.
Circular or linear time, either way, time has a beginning for an obvious reason as I stated: You cannot reach from a point in the eternal past to now since infinity by definition is unreachable.
Err no, there is no beginning point on a circle (4 dimensional circular structure). And the whole thing is sitting there in eternity. This moment is eternity. And this moment is eternity. In my model your argument is invalid.
bahman
Posts: 8791
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:52 pm

### Re: The Kalam Cosmological Argument - William Lane Craig

Atla wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 3:22 pm
bahman wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 3:20 pm
Atla wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 3:09 pm
Again: no cyclic cosmology. Cyclic cosmology is for kids. Time is not circular in cyclic cosmology but it's the standard linear time.
Circular or linear time, either way, time has a beginning for an obvious reason as I stated: You cannot reach from a point in the eternal past to now since infinity by definition is unreachable.
Err no, there is no beginning point on a circle (4 dimensional circular structure). And the whole thing is sitting there in eternity. This moment is eternity. And this moment is eternity. In my model your argument is invalid.
Can we rewind time into the past from now? How far can you go?
Atla
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Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:27 am

### Re: The Kalam Cosmological Argument - William Lane Craig

bahman wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 3:40 pm
Atla wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 3:22 pm
bahman wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 3:20 pm
Circular or linear time, either way, time has a beginning for an obvious reason as I stated: You cannot reach from a point in the eternal past to now since infinity by definition is unreachable.
Err no, there is no beginning point on a circle (4 dimensional circular structure). And the whole thing is sitting there in eternity. This moment is eternity. And this moment is eternity. In my model your argument is invalid.
Can we rewind time into the past from now? How far can you go?
Rewinding time and going back is a Newtonian absolute time idea, it was refuted by Einstein.

But let's say we rewind the time anyway. Well you can go back as far as the future and then all the way back to the point in time where you started. But this is all not happening in time, so it's not possible to actually do it. That's the whole point.
bahman
Posts: 8791
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:52 pm

### Re: The Kalam Cosmological Argument - William Lane Craig

Atla wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 3:46 pm
bahman wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 3:40 pm
Atla wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 3:22 pm

Err no, there is no beginning point on a circle (4 dimensional circular structure). And the whole thing is sitting there in eternity. This moment is eternity. And this moment is eternity. In my model your argument is invalid.
Can we rewind time into the past from now? How far can you go?
Rewinding time and going back is a Newtonian absolute time idea, it was refuted by Einstein.
No, that is not precise. You can have a watch sitting in one point of space and watch how it changes. Different observers see the passage of time differently but for the sake of argument let's assume that we are talking about an observer who lives in the same reference frame as the watch. This observer sees the passage of time as the watch shows it.
Atla wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 3:46 pm But let's say we rewind the time anyway. Well you can go back as far as the future and then all the way back to the point in time where you started. But this is all not happening in time, so it's not possible to actually do it. That's the whole point.
Yes, you would return to the same point in time in your cyclic spacetime manifold but you cannot get rid of the passage of time, what the watch shows you.
Atla
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Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:27 am

### Re: The Kalam Cosmological Argument - William Lane Craig

bahman wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 4:03 pm
Atla wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 3:46 pm
bahman wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 3:40 pm
Can we rewind time into the past from now? How far can you go?
Rewinding time and going back is a Newtonian absolute time idea, it was refuted by Einstein.
No, that is not precise. You can have a watch sitting in one point of space and watch how it changes. Different observers see the passage of time differently but for the sake of argument let's assume that we are talking about an observer who lives in the same reference frame as the watch. This observer sees the passage of time as the watch shows it.
Atla wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 3:46 pm But let's say we rewind the time anyway. Well you can go back as far as the future and then all the way back to the point in time where you started. But this is all not happening in time, so it's not possible to actually do it. That's the whole point.
Yes, you would return to the same point in time in your cyclic spacetime manifold but you cannot get rid of the passage of time, what the watch shows you.
It's not cyclic. That's the whole point. I said that 3 times before.

Never mind. Western philosophy missed circular time, Eastern philosophy missed circular time, science missed circular time and I couldn't explain it to anyone on philosophy forums either. You don't get it either even though you were a physicist once.

Most people just aren't good at thinking outside the box.
bahman
Posts: 8791
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:52 pm

### Re: The Kalam Cosmological Argument - William Lane Craig

Atla wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 4:09 pm
bahman wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 4:03 pm
Atla wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 3:46 pm
Rewinding time and going back is a Newtonian absolute time idea, it was refuted by Einstein.
No, that is not precise. You can have a watch sitting in one point of space and watch how it changes. Different observers see the passage of time differently but for the sake of argument let's assume that we are talking about an observer who lives in the same reference frame as the watch. This observer sees the passage of time as the watch shows it.
Atla wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 3:46 pm But let's say we rewind the time anyway. Well you can go back as far as the future and then all the way back to the point in time where you started. But this is all not happening in time, so it's not possible to actually do it. That's the whole point.
Yes, you would return to the same point in time in your cyclic spacetime manifold but you cannot get rid of the passage of time, what the watch shows you.
It's not cyclic. That's the whole point. I said that 3 times before.

Never mind. Western philosophy missed circular time, Eastern philosophy missed circular time, science missed circular time and I couldn't explain it to anyone on philosophy forums either. You don't get it either even though you were a physicist once.

Most people just aren't good at thinking outside the box.
Why do you evade my question? Does the watch that is attached to you show the passage of time?
Atla
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Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:27 am

### Re: The Kalam Cosmological Argument - William Lane Craig

bahman wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 4:11 pm Why do you evade my question? Does the watch that is attached to you show the passage of time?
Sure it does, but you and your watch will eventually disintegrate too close to the Big Bang / Big Crunch / whatever.
bahman
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Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:52 pm

### Re: The Kalam Cosmological Argument - William Lane Craig

Atla wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 4:16 pm
bahman wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 4:11 pm Why do you evade my question? Does the watch that is attached to you show the passage of time?
Sure it does, but you and your watch will eventually disintegrate too close to the Big Bang / Big Crunch / whatever.
Yes, a physical watch will eventually disintegrate too at the singularity but you cannot get rid of the passage of time. Time still passes since otherwise there cannot be any change in the stuff at a point close to singularity.
Atla
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Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:27 am

### Re: The Kalam Cosmological Argument - William Lane Craig

bahman wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 4:24 pm
Atla wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 4:16 pm
bahman wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 4:11 pm Why do you evade my question? Does the watch that is attached to you show the passage of time?
Sure it does, but you and your watch will eventually disintegrate too close to the Big Bang / Big Crunch / whatever.
Yes, a physical watch will eventually disintegrate too at the singularity but you cannot get rid of the passage of time. Time still passes since otherwise there cannot be any change in the stuff at a point close to singularity.
Well times "passes" but it's circular. In other words, past present and future all exist all at once. And though it's our everyday human experience that things are changing, fundamentally change doesn't exist.
bahman
Posts: 8791
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:52 pm

### Re: The Kalam Cosmological Argument - William Lane Craig

Atla wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 4:29 pm
bahman wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 4:24 pm
Atla wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 4:16 pm
Sure it does, but you and your watch will eventually disintegrate too close to the Big Bang / Big Crunch / whatever.
Yes, a physical watch will eventually disintegrate too at the singularity but you cannot get rid of the passage of time. Time still passes since otherwise there cannot be any change in the stuff at a point close to singularity.
Well times "passes" but it's circular. In other words, past present and future all exist all at once.
Now, you are not making any sense. We are not talking about simultaneous events. Are we?
Atla wrote: Wed Nov 29, 2023 4:29 pm And though it's our everyday human experience that things are changing, fundamentally change doesn't exist.
If events are simultaneous then it cannot be any change.