Atla wrote: ↑Mon Nov 27, 2023 9:48 pm
There are a lot of alternative stories that don't need a "first cause", for example a few:
- The universe began with the Big Bang and spacetime began with it. So asking what caused it or what was before it is like asking what is north of the North pole. It makes no sense.
I tend to agree with this assessment. The more obvious answer is that the universe is a self contained thing which has always existed (in one form or another perhaps) but the singularity in and of itself is not a "first cause" in any other way except as a "starting point" to "a form" - the current one, being the one we are experiencing. (it matters not if it once was another form or will one day become another form).
- The universe began with the Big Bang, but before it there was an endless cycle of preceding universes (cyclic cosmology, eternal return).
Yes. "One form or another" - but we are involved with nutting out our current situation in the current form the universe presents as.
- The universe began with the Big Bang when two higher dimensional branes or whatever collided.
That sounds like supernaturalism - and is unnecessary in explaining how our universe (in current form) came to be.
- The known universe comes from the Big Bang, but we simply can't see past the singularity. Maybe there was stuff before it, maybe there wasn't, maybe it was caused, maybe it wasn't.
All of which comes under the heading of "philosophy" (cosmology) and in that we can define what can be accepted as necessary re "maybe" and what is unnecessary.
Re the thread question - "supernaturalism" appears to be an unnecessary addition - iow - not a suitable candidate as a "maybe".
- The universe simply began without a "first cause".
Something cannot "begin" without a cause. However, if the singularity is mindful, then what comes from that, can be regarded as "cause enough".
- The known universe coming from the Big Bang is not the entire universe. The entire universe may be much larger and there may have been multiple Big Bangs.
Even so, it is all "One Thing" and natural
enough for that.
- There was no Big Bang, the universe has been here forever.
According to a well known astrophysicist, science has shown that a "Big Bang" did occur and that is something which cannot be denied.
(The Big Bang Dilemma with Neil deGrasse Tyson)
And all the above stories, including "first cause", are based on linear time which I disagree with because it's inherently illogical imo.
Please elaborate re your opinion on this, and explain how it might change the argument.
As for being "mindful", I've seen no signs so far that the universe would have been intentionally created by a being natural or supernatural.
Unless "maybe" the singularity was mindful and thus purposeful (intentional) re creating this particular universe we are investigating.