I am somewhere along the line of my studying
Eastern philosophy... right now I am mid-point in
Indian philosophy.... and it seems like a good place to
hold a recap of where I am... and what it means for me...
I have read several books on Indian Philosophy.. several points
come to mind... that Indian philosophy is engaged in the exact same
thoughts as Western Philosophy....
Indian Philosophy is really engaged in several areas...
Epistemology is one such area..
Epistemology: the theory of Knowledge, especially with regards to its
methods, validity and scope..... it investigates what distinguishes
justified belief from opinion...
Indian Philosophy breaks down into schools of thought much more than
they do in the west... and one area that Indian Philosophy separates itself
is in its faith in, or belief in the ''scriptures" .... the Vedas... of which
is, in part, broken down into two aspects... one class is called Sruti (heard)
and the second class is Smriti (remembered) the scriptures includes such
works as the Vedas, the Upanishads, the Puranas, the Mahabharata,
the Ramayana, and the Agamas.... several major schools of thought
hold these scriptures to be valid and the basis of belief
and others schools do not hold the ''scriptures" to be valid..
these include some of the major schools of thought including
Buddhism, Jainism, to name a few schools that don't accept
the ''scriptures'''
the Hindu ideas are in line with a belief in scripture...
but being Hindu, for example, is something different than
belief in Christianity... the Hindus hold to ideas about
the major issues of faith and lifestyle- vegetarianism, non-violence,
belief in rebirth, even the caste system, are subjects to debate,
not dogma.....Gandi once said: ''a man may not believe in god
and still call himself Hindu''
and that is the major point I wish to bring up...
that most of Indian Philosophy does revolve around
the idea of belief as a ''way of life''
take the Kantian questions, ''what am I to do?" ''What am I to believe in?''
''what should I hope for?".. ''what can I know?"
are fundamentals questions in Eastern philosophy...
and almost all the Indian schools match the western ideas of
philosophy with one major exception....they don't have
what we call Existentialism.... at least in the readings I have done....
and the other area of difference is that western philosophy
is more engaged in individual pursuit and Indian philosophy
is more engaged in the society pursuit....
the idea of becoming ''enlightened" is often thought of in terms
of the society as a whole.... how am I to help everyone else
become ''enlightened?"" and this is to the belief
that the goal of existence is to return to the Brahman..
the one that is... like a drop of water returning to the sea,
and we are, individually, that drop of water...
and in doing so, we no longer will get reborn... the goal is
to avoid being reborn... which is vastly different than any goal
in western philosophy..... in the west, you have two states of
being, one, when alive, this life, and the second in the next life..
in heaven or in hell, eternally...
one of the primary feelings in the east, is compassion.... the one
becomes ''enlightened'' and the choice becomes either to follow that
path of being ''enlightened'' which leads us to escape life... but
in our compassion for our fellow man, we stay behind and help
all the others to become ''enlightened''...
that becomes a ''way of life'' to help others to become ''enlightened''
and thus escape being reborn, again and again.....
to escape the suffering of existence... from being born, to growing
old, to getting diseases to the final, in this life anyway, death....
In most Indian beliefs, the idea of reincarnation is present..
with one major exception, that of Charvaka... which died out
centuries ago... the Charvaka were even before Buddhism..
and they were materialistic and atheistic.... it was all about
matter for the Charvaka... and the Charvaka did not hold to
the Vedas as being scripture.. which put them in the same
school as Buddhism and the Jain....
and in the Buddhist tradition, we have various paths that can lead
one to become ''enlightened'' the best known one in the west,
is the ''Noble Eightfold Path'' which is clearly a path of a ''way of life'''
the eightfold path consists of eight practices... the right view, the right
resolve, right speech, right conduct, right livelihood, right effort,
right mindfulness, and the right samadhi... which is meditation...
meditative union/awareness....
we can have a ''way of life'' based on these precepts/practices...
and that is where my focus will be next....
Kropotkin
Indian philosophy as a ''way of life''
-
Peter Kropotkin
- Posts: 1625
- Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:11 am
-
Peter Kropotkin
- Posts: 1625
- Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:11 am
Re: Indian philosophy as a ''way of life''
we in the west are materialist focused... what can we gain...
and of the modern age, what can we gain in terms of
wealth, titles, power, fame and material possessions....
the trinkets of existence..... even our religions,
in America at least, have become about gaining wealth...
a key word in modern American religions is prosperity...
not salvation... religious leaders have become concerned
because their ''flock'' has increasingly rejected the word of Jesus,
as being ''WOKE''... the new faith has become increasingly
masculine... the new faith is about Patriotic duty, discipline,
self-sacrifice, masculinity, and moral and physical beauty
of athleticism... and with the response of men quite often
lie along the lines of violence or threaten violence....
and the new ideology does nothing to tone down a
man's common response to situations....
and the question now becomes, what alternative to the new
ideologies exist?
I would suggest that part of the world's problem lay in our
''leaping'' before thinking in terms of actions taken....
and part of thinking before actions lays in the eightfold
path... in which we examine ourselves in terms of
the ''right view'' ''right resolve'' ''right speech'' ''right conduct''
''right livelihood, '' right effort'' right mindfulness'' and
''right samadhi/meditation''
much of where I go wrong is that I tend to react before thinking
about it.... I should learn to slow it down and be mindful of
what I can say and do... I think women are much better at
giving reflection to their thoughts and actions... they
are more mindful of what they say and do... and I could
learn from that..... but it goes deeper than that.....
we should engage in mindfulness in all our actions
and speech, both public and private.. in every belief
we hold, to every thought we have, to every word we utter,
to every action we take....
many of my own life's problems would have gone away or never occurred
had I practiced mindfulness in words and actions....
it can become a ''way of life'' if we were to practice mindfulness all
the time.. in every situation....with every person.....
and that is one of the keys to life, finding a ''way of life'' that
makes sense for us today, in our modern world.....
or said another way, in practicing the eightfold path...
Kropotkin
and of the modern age, what can we gain in terms of
wealth, titles, power, fame and material possessions....
the trinkets of existence..... even our religions,
in America at least, have become about gaining wealth...
a key word in modern American religions is prosperity...
not salvation... religious leaders have become concerned
because their ''flock'' has increasingly rejected the word of Jesus,
as being ''WOKE''... the new faith has become increasingly
masculine... the new faith is about Patriotic duty, discipline,
self-sacrifice, masculinity, and moral and physical beauty
of athleticism... and with the response of men quite often
lie along the lines of violence or threaten violence....
and the new ideology does nothing to tone down a
man's common response to situations....
and the question now becomes, what alternative to the new
ideologies exist?
I would suggest that part of the world's problem lay in our
''leaping'' before thinking in terms of actions taken....
and part of thinking before actions lays in the eightfold
path... in which we examine ourselves in terms of
the ''right view'' ''right resolve'' ''right speech'' ''right conduct''
''right livelihood, '' right effort'' right mindfulness'' and
''right samadhi/meditation''
much of where I go wrong is that I tend to react before thinking
about it.... I should learn to slow it down and be mindful of
what I can say and do... I think women are much better at
giving reflection to their thoughts and actions... they
are more mindful of what they say and do... and I could
learn from that..... but it goes deeper than that.....
we should engage in mindfulness in all our actions
and speech, both public and private.. in every belief
we hold, to every thought we have, to every word we utter,
to every action we take....
many of my own life's problems would have gone away or never occurred
had I practiced mindfulness in words and actions....
it can become a ''way of life'' if we were to practice mindfulness all
the time.. in every situation....with every person.....
and that is one of the keys to life, finding a ''way of life'' that
makes sense for us today, in our modern world.....
or said another way, in practicing the eightfold path...
Kropotkin
-
Peter Kropotkin
- Posts: 1625
- Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:11 am
Re: Indian philosophy as a ''way of life''
and now we can connect one of my earlier threads with this
thread....my ""bondage and liberation'' thread....
part of being in bondage is our inability to stop, pause
and think about our thoughts and actions.... if we stop and
think about the right actions, the right words, the right
effort and so on, then we are no longer held hostage to
our emotions.... that demand instant action.....
and being held hostage is part of bondage of existence....
to be liberated is to be free to act and think with purpose
and mindfulness...
our emotions are both a source of strength and a path to
destruction... in moments of great emotions, we must learn
to stop and pause.. to reflect on what is driving our passions
and emotions..... Yesterday was an emotional day...
my daughter, who is staying with us for a month, had to
put her cat to sleep.. a cat or a dog, they are part of a family...
and should be treated as such... in the depths of my emotions,
I didn't post... I waited.... for my emotions would have
driven me to write stuff that I wasn't mindful of......
for emotions can override our thoughts, our beliefs, our core
values can be driven away because of an immense emotional response
to something....emotions are not something to be afraid of, or driven
away.... they can be a huge positive in our lives.... for our emotions,
they are just another source of understanding the world...
much of how we understand the world is driven by emotions...
we cannot understand much of what is important in our lives in any other
way but emotions... love cannot be rationally understood, hope cannot
be rationally understood, faith is another emotion that is outside of
our thought process... as with joy or sadness or despair or anger....
these emotions drive much of who we are... and if strong enough,
they can override our rational thinking, our rational actions...
quite often we know things emotionally, that we cannot understand
logically or rationally.. it has been said, that our rational self is
really in support of our emotions... we act or say, and then we later
justify it rationally, logically..... emotions go first and then we
think about it later....our rational thought is in support of our emotions...
not the other way around.....
the question becomes, is mindfulness an emotion or is it a rational
response? I suspect that mindfulness is really a union of both
the rational and emotional reflex.....
one of the ways we can learn to control our emotions is by
discipline... we can use methods like Buddhism to learn
to control our emotions..... and learning to control our emotions
is just one way we can become better human beings.... instead of
just reacting to something, emotionally, we can learn to pause,
to be mindful of our emotions...and one such path is by
reducing our desires for things... by not becoming attached to
things, people, events, we can learn to control our emotions...
to become attached to something is to become more emotional about
something... attachment is about emotions.... I am greatly attached to
my wife... which means I am very emotional about my wife....and that
is a good thing... but it also means I can react, in regard to her,
with a great deal of emotions...and that means I might not
be making the best decisions I can for and/or about her....
because my emotions are driving my inability to think clearly
about her....
just as we are told that to avoid diseases like dementia or Alzheimer,,,
we must practice our brains by doing brain exercises... playing chess
for example or doing word puzzles... and to avoid physical issues,
we must do exercises, walking or running or lifting weights......
we must do the same for our emotions.... and the practice there
is by learning to control our emotions.... instead of our emotions
controlling us, we are in control of our emotions.. but that takes
practice in learning to control our emotions....and our emotions
are so ingrained into us, that sometimes to learn to control them,
can take a lifetime..... and what method can we use to learn
to control our emotions? the eightfold path is one such way....
and there are other ways/means to learn to discipline our emotions...
for there are a million paths to the goals of learning control and the
discipline of the mind and body and soul and emotions...
and the first step, as always is becoming aware of... to know that
something needs to be done and then finding a path to that something...
and a million paths lead us to our goal.... but then we also have to have
a goal, a point to which we are going to......
and what is our final goal?
Kropotkin
thread....my ""bondage and liberation'' thread....
part of being in bondage is our inability to stop, pause
and think about our thoughts and actions.... if we stop and
think about the right actions, the right words, the right
effort and so on, then we are no longer held hostage to
our emotions.... that demand instant action.....
and being held hostage is part of bondage of existence....
to be liberated is to be free to act and think with purpose
and mindfulness...
our emotions are both a source of strength and a path to
destruction... in moments of great emotions, we must learn
to stop and pause.. to reflect on what is driving our passions
and emotions..... Yesterday was an emotional day...
my daughter, who is staying with us for a month, had to
put her cat to sleep.. a cat or a dog, they are part of a family...
and should be treated as such... in the depths of my emotions,
I didn't post... I waited.... for my emotions would have
driven me to write stuff that I wasn't mindful of......
for emotions can override our thoughts, our beliefs, our core
values can be driven away because of an immense emotional response
to something....emotions are not something to be afraid of, or driven
away.... they can be a huge positive in our lives.... for our emotions,
they are just another source of understanding the world...
much of how we understand the world is driven by emotions...
we cannot understand much of what is important in our lives in any other
way but emotions... love cannot be rationally understood, hope cannot
be rationally understood, faith is another emotion that is outside of
our thought process... as with joy or sadness or despair or anger....
these emotions drive much of who we are... and if strong enough,
they can override our rational thinking, our rational actions...
quite often we know things emotionally, that we cannot understand
logically or rationally.. it has been said, that our rational self is
really in support of our emotions... we act or say, and then we later
justify it rationally, logically..... emotions go first and then we
think about it later....our rational thought is in support of our emotions...
not the other way around.....
the question becomes, is mindfulness an emotion or is it a rational
response? I suspect that mindfulness is really a union of both
the rational and emotional reflex.....
one of the ways we can learn to control our emotions is by
discipline... we can use methods like Buddhism to learn
to control our emotions..... and learning to control our emotions
is just one way we can become better human beings.... instead of
just reacting to something, emotionally, we can learn to pause,
to be mindful of our emotions...and one such path is by
reducing our desires for things... by not becoming attached to
things, people, events, we can learn to control our emotions...
to become attached to something is to become more emotional about
something... attachment is about emotions.... I am greatly attached to
my wife... which means I am very emotional about my wife....and that
is a good thing... but it also means I can react, in regard to her,
with a great deal of emotions...and that means I might not
be making the best decisions I can for and/or about her....
because my emotions are driving my inability to think clearly
about her....
just as we are told that to avoid diseases like dementia or Alzheimer,,,
we must practice our brains by doing brain exercises... playing chess
for example or doing word puzzles... and to avoid physical issues,
we must do exercises, walking or running or lifting weights......
we must do the same for our emotions.... and the practice there
is by learning to control our emotions.... instead of our emotions
controlling us, we are in control of our emotions.. but that takes
practice in learning to control our emotions....and our emotions
are so ingrained into us, that sometimes to learn to control them,
can take a lifetime..... and what method can we use to learn
to control our emotions? the eightfold path is one such way....
and there are other ways/means to learn to discipline our emotions...
for there are a million paths to the goals of learning control and the
discipline of the mind and body and soul and emotions...
and the first step, as always is becoming aware of... to know that
something needs to be done and then finding a path to that something...
and a million paths lead us to our goal.... but then we also have to have
a goal, a point to which we are going to......
and what is our final goal?
Kropotkin
Re: Indian philosophy as a ''way of life''
Indian philosophy was sent to, and entrusted to the energy of the West beginning with Ramakrishna sending Swami Vivekananda* to soften up the folks as an emissary, and many have since come. The handwriting was on the wall for those who saw the way things are and who seamlessly served as the will of God. Technology has turned the wheel of Dharma and with it has turned India's vision towards materialism ... meanwhile like a lion over its prey, China is licking its chops over the natural resources of Tibet.
* as far as I know ...
* as far as I know ...
-
Peter Kropotkin
- Posts: 1625
- Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:11 am
Re: Indian philosophy as a ''way of life''
the next step is to understand emotions and maya/illusions...
to be honest, the one is equal to the other... what drives illusions/maya
is our emotions.....what drives conservatives? fear and fear is driven
by emotions.... they/conservatives are afraid of practically everything....
immigrants, education, blacks, CRT, history, liberals, people of color,
Islam, Hinduism, the constitution, Jews, abortions, women, anything
different than conservatives, the UN.... and the list can go on and on
and on..... one of the current pet hatreds of conservatives is the inner city...
they imagine it to be crime ridden and a total disaster because of liberal
policies...and yet, conservatives offer no solutions to said problem
and secondly, they feel, not hold rationally, but emotionally,
that the inner city is a crime wave happening every minute...
the fact is that crime is down substantially... but that is
evidenced based.. and the conservative doesn't trust evidence
or facts...
because of over reliance of emotions by conservatives, they
are full of illusions... illusions driven by emotions, not facts...
conservatives are fearful of elections today.. and why? because
they were told to be fearful... and yet, it is a fact that
the last presidential election was the least impacted election
by fraud then any election in American history.....
it is only by willful ignorance can one call the last election,
fake or a fraud... to hold that the last presidential election
was fake or stolen, requires one to be so captured by
illusion/maya as to not be able to see the reality of that election....
the overwhelming fact is that the last election was safe and fair....
and to hold otherwise is to be held by illusion/maya....
which is emotion that overcomes the ability to rationally
think about something....but the MAGA crowd, no matter what
evidence is presented, cannot be convinced that the last election
was not stolen... that is the state of maya/illusions...
and examples of maya/illusions can be found by the dozens...
that there is a god, that America was born a Christian nation,
that blacks are inferior to whites, that women are to be the
property of men, that gays/trans people are bringing about the
corruptness/immorality of America....that the Jews run the world...
each of these prejudices are in fact, illusions... to be prejudice
is in fact, to be in the grips of illusions... for to be prejudice is
to be in maya/illusion....
to hold to not only prejudice, but to hold to bigotry, to hold
to intolerance, to hold to racism or sexism, is to hold to
illusions/maya.... but Kropotkin, prove it....
for what is prejudice?
Prejudice: an unfavorable opinion or feeling formed beforehand
or without knowledge, thought, or reason....
the very definition of prejudice defines it to be a maya/illusion....
so how to overcome prejudice? by becoming aware of, to
practice what Socrates suggested, to know thyself....
and seek out what is illusion/prejudice/what is indoctrinated into one....
and to seek out what one actually believes to be true.. by an examination
of one's beliefs and values... an reexamination of values
as Nietzsche called it.... to seek out our illusions and maya...
that is the path to becoming human, fully human.....
and the path to overcoming prejudice and illusions...
Kropotkin
to be honest, the one is equal to the other... what drives illusions/maya
is our emotions.....what drives conservatives? fear and fear is driven
by emotions.... they/conservatives are afraid of practically everything....
immigrants, education, blacks, CRT, history, liberals, people of color,
Islam, Hinduism, the constitution, Jews, abortions, women, anything
different than conservatives, the UN.... and the list can go on and on
and on..... one of the current pet hatreds of conservatives is the inner city...
they imagine it to be crime ridden and a total disaster because of liberal
policies...and yet, conservatives offer no solutions to said problem
and secondly, they feel, not hold rationally, but emotionally,
that the inner city is a crime wave happening every minute...
the fact is that crime is down substantially... but that is
evidenced based.. and the conservative doesn't trust evidence
or facts...
because of over reliance of emotions by conservatives, they
are full of illusions... illusions driven by emotions, not facts...
conservatives are fearful of elections today.. and why? because
they were told to be fearful... and yet, it is a fact that
the last presidential election was the least impacted election
by fraud then any election in American history.....
it is only by willful ignorance can one call the last election,
fake or a fraud... to hold that the last presidential election
was fake or stolen, requires one to be so captured by
illusion/maya as to not be able to see the reality of that election....
the overwhelming fact is that the last election was safe and fair....
and to hold otherwise is to be held by illusion/maya....
which is emotion that overcomes the ability to rationally
think about something....but the MAGA crowd, no matter what
evidence is presented, cannot be convinced that the last election
was not stolen... that is the state of maya/illusions...
and examples of maya/illusions can be found by the dozens...
that there is a god, that America was born a Christian nation,
that blacks are inferior to whites, that women are to be the
property of men, that gays/trans people are bringing about the
corruptness/immorality of America....that the Jews run the world...
each of these prejudices are in fact, illusions... to be prejudice
is in fact, to be in the grips of illusions... for to be prejudice is
to be in maya/illusion....
to hold to not only prejudice, but to hold to bigotry, to hold
to intolerance, to hold to racism or sexism, is to hold to
illusions/maya.... but Kropotkin, prove it....
for what is prejudice?
Prejudice: an unfavorable opinion or feeling formed beforehand
or without knowledge, thought, or reason....
the very definition of prejudice defines it to be a maya/illusion....
so how to overcome prejudice? by becoming aware of, to
practice what Socrates suggested, to know thyself....
and seek out what is illusion/prejudice/what is indoctrinated into one....
and to seek out what one actually believes to be true.. by an examination
of one's beliefs and values... an reexamination of values
as Nietzsche called it.... to seek out our illusions and maya...
that is the path to becoming human, fully human.....
and the path to overcoming prejudice and illusions...
Kropotkin
-
Iwannaplato
- Posts: 6802
- Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:55 pm
Re: Indian philosophy as a ''way of life''
You can't pick and choose in the application of Maya. Thinking your wife is your wife is Maya. Democratic politics is Maya. Republican politics is Maya. Thinking that people are suffering or individuals is Maya. This is running to a belief system I don't think you have much in-context understanding of, and then using it to empower your judgments of people you oppose, which is using the concept of Maja to create more Maya.
That is, if one believes in the whole model.
That is, if one believes in the whole model.
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Peter Kropotkin
- Posts: 1625
- Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:11 am
Re: Indian philosophy as a ''way of life''
K: you have, either by accident or on purpose misstated my viewpoint....Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sat Nov 04, 2023 10:05 pm You can't pick and choose in the application of Maya. Thinking your wife is your wife is Maya. Democratic politics is Maya. Republican politics is Maya. Thinking that people are suffering or individuals is Maya. This is running to a belief system I don't think you have much in-context understanding of, and then using it to empower your judgments of people you oppose, which is using the concept of Maja to create more Maya.
That is, if one believes in the whole model.
I don't at any point say that ''everything is maya" (although the Buddhists
actually believe this) I said that much of what we believe to be fact, is
illusions/maya.... I don't ''pick and choose'' anything.. I am pointing out
that millions of GOP/MAGA people believe in lies... and those lies
are illusions...I am saying that people believe in illusions.. that
there is a god, that all Jews are evil, that blacks are shifty and lazy...
those illusions, that is what I am talking about... not what I believe in,
but what others believe in....I have my own illusions.. that someday,
maybe, AGE will write something intelligent and worth reading.... maybe...
and I read him/her/it every day and every day, I am disappointed...
but that is my problem.....what is your illusion?
Kropotkin
-
Iwannaplato
- Posts: 6802
- Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:55 pm
Re: Indian philosophy as a ''way of life''
Yes, I wasn't attributing it to you, I was pointing out that in Buddhism and Hinduism, it's not something that applies to one political party, for example, and not all the others.Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Sun Nov 05, 2023 3:58 am K: you have, either by accident or on purpose misstated my viewpoint....
I don't at any point say that ''everything is maya" (although the Buddhists
actually believe this)
Yes, I certainly understood that. But what you're doing has little to do with the concept of Maya here. If you want to argue, as you have a number of times before, that they believe in lies that can be part of all sorts of arguments. But to do this in the context of the idea of 'Maya' and using that concept to explain the problem with that political group, is it misunderstand Maya and perhaps mislead others about that idea.I said that much of what we believe to be fact, is
illusions/maya.... I don't ''pick and choose'' anything.. I am pointing out
that millions of GOP/MAGA people believe in lies
Right but focusing on the political party you are critical of and not also focusing on the ones you like or are less critical is a confused use of Maya.... and those lies
are illusions...I am saying that people believe in illusions.. that
there is a god, that all Jews are evil, that blacks are shifty and lazy...
those illusions, that is what I am talking about... not what I believe in,
but what others believe in....
Oh, it's similar to the one you mentioned about Age, though broader.I have my own illusions.. that someday,
maybe, AGE will write something intelligent and worth reading.... maybe...
and I read him/her/it every day and every day, I am disappointed...
but that is my problem.....what is your illusion?
But then I am neither a Hindu nor a Buddhist, so I might happily use the word illusion, without all the implications of the use of Maya. If you mean illusion, then that's a better word. Here it's just cultural appropriation. I mention that not in the sense that I think you are oppressing anyone - IOW I use that term not to judge it as a moral choice - but rather because you are using the term incorrectly. And here you are using, in that last bit, a perfectly good term that has a long history in Western ontology and one that doesn't drag in ontological ideas that don't fit your use of the term.