Philosophy of Mind

[Darkneos]

Even funnier is how anyone arguing for a mind doesn’t see how that would lead to solipsism.

[Trajk Logik]

Ad Homs are the only response to god of the gaps arguments. You’re essentially referencing your own ignorance for why things are as you claim.

I haven't mentioned god, you have. I'm an atheist and have been talking in terms of "processes", "relationships" and "information", not "spirits", "ghosts" and "souls". Get your head out of your ass so that we can stop talking past each other.

It does follow. P Zombie is more about whether something is conscious not about a mind. We can’t measure a mind.

How does one measure consciousness?

No it’s not. You can measure ripeness you can’t measure redness.

Again this is just god of the gaps nonsense. The only difference is you have no evidence for mind. Like I said, it was a useful concept in the past when we didn’t know better, but now we do.

Please try harder, this is boring.

Of course you can measure redness. What is a measurement if not a comparison of similar aspects, like change (time), and length? Measuring red would simply be comparing varying degrees of red compared to other colors. The redder the apple the riper the apple. The more brown/black the apple, the more rotten the apple. You simply aren't imaginative enough and assume way too much.

We aren’t talking past each other. You’re advocating for mind, which there is no evidence for. Everything else you have mentioned. Processes, relationships, and information are all the domain of the brain. That’s pretty much settled.

As for how one measures consciousness, can’t really say for sure.

Incorrect, you cannot measure redness because redness doesn’t exist “out there” in that it’s color. Red is effectively whatever red say is red, so you can’t really measure it because red to you could be “brown” to another. There is no way to measure an amount of red in something. Now wavelengths yes, we can measure that, and yes our brains turn that into color. But if you try to demonstrate redness to someone else you’ll fail to it they don’t already agree what it is prior to it, which we as a society do.

The redder an apple is doesn’t mean it’s riper, there isn’t a link between the two. What of apples that aren’t red? What if someone can’t see red a la color blind?

Like, your arguments just get stupider with each post. It’s ironic that you think I assume too much when that’s literally your whole argument so far.

Measurement is more than just change over time.

If brains are "out there" (again your words, not mine) and colors aren't "out there" yet brains turn wavelengths to color, then you're contradicting yourself. You have no idea what you're talking about, even claiming consciousness can be measured yet can't say for sure how. Pathetic.

I never said measurement is just change over time. You aren't even reading what I said and put words in my mouth. You are incapable of intellectual honesty which just makes your words worthless and not worth my time.

[Darkneos]

I haven't mentioned god, you have. I'm an atheist and have been talking in terms of "processes", "relationships" and "information", not "spirits", "ghosts" and "souls". Get your head out of your ass so that we can stop talking past each other.


How does one measure consciousness?


Of course you can measure redness. What is a measurement if not a comparison of similar aspects, like change (time), and length? Measuring red would simply be comparing varying degrees of red compared to other colors. The redder the apple the riper the apple. The more brown/black the apple, the more rotten the apple. You simply aren't imaginative enough and assume way too much.

We aren’t talking past each other. You’re advocating for mind, which there is no evidence for. Everything else you have mentioned. Processes, relationships, and information are all the domain of the brain. That’s pretty much settled.

As for how one measures consciousness, can’t really say for sure.

Incorrect, you cannot measure redness because redness doesn’t exist “out there” in that it’s color. Red is effectively whatever red say is red, so you can’t really measure it because red to you could be “brown” to another. There is no way to measure an amount of red in something. Now wavelengths yes, we can measure that, and yes our brains turn that into color. But if you try to demonstrate redness to someone else you’ll fail to it they don’t already agree what it is prior to it, which we as a society do.

The redder an apple is doesn’t mean it’s riper, there isn’t a link between the two. What of apples that aren’t red? What if someone can’t see red a la color blind?

Like, your arguments just get stupider with each post. It’s ironic that you think I assume too much when that’s literally your whole argument so far.

Measurement is more than just change over time.

If brains are "out there" (again your words, not mine) and colors aren't "out there" yet brains turn wavelengths to color, then you're contradicting yourself. You have no idea what you're talking about, even claiming consciousness can be measured yet can't say for sure how. Pathetic.

I never said measurement is just change over time. You aren't even reading what I said and put words in my mouth. You are incapable of intellectual honesty which just makes your words worthless and not worth my time.

It's more like trying to dumb down very basic and understood subjects for someone who doesn't get it. Color is "out there" in that it's wave lengths of light but our brains turn that into color. Light bounces off objects and that's what we see. I'm not contradicting myself, you're literally just stupid in this case (which makes sense since your only argument against materialism or the brain is gaps in knowledge, a la argument from ignorance). Nothing that I said is a contradiction.

Like I said you might want to google that word. Our brains create a best guess of what is out there based on sense data. Just because we don't "directly" perceive a tree or a brain doesn't mean there isn't one. And in the case of color and sound we can explain what they are, we aren't just magicing this stuff out of nothing.

I never said measurement is just change over time. You aren't even reading what I said and put words in my mouth. You are incapable of intellectual honesty which just makes your words worthless and not worth my time.

It sounds more like you just want an easy out when you can't admit you have nothing. There is no reason to believe in such a thing as mind when we have data to show all the stuff is done by the brain. Even your little bit about information, relationships, etc is what the brain does. Everything cited so far is just dated scientists who say "we don't know the real answer so it has to be something else " (which is not how anything works).

In fact that is literally your whole argument so far, "we don't know how X works so it has to be mind" which is argument from ignorance and god of the gaps (which again doesn't have to do with god specifically). I honestly was expecting a challenge but it's the same weak sauce nonsense people with no evidence have. It didn't work in the past and it won't work now.

It also still doesn't change that you can't measure redness. You can measure the wavelength of light being reflected of an object but you can't measure redness itself.

[Darkneos]

Like...if you believe that mind is primary then you might as well just skip ahead to solipsism while you're at it.

[VVilliam]

Like...if you believe that mind is primary then you might as well just skip ahead to solipsism while you're at it.

True - in the conceptional sense - and perhaps add to that a primary mind "should have just stayed that way" ( as The One Mind ) instead of creating a "between" bit...