Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 10:50 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 10:21 am
I don't use the mind-dependent term because it is too confusing to the extent that I will be accused of claiming the universe came about dependent of the individual human mind or the collective minds as if it is magic show.
So, you will be accused of that. IOW the problem with calling it mind-dependent is that people will make a presumably false accusation then. Or really they will say it means X, which it doesn't mean.
What does mind-dependence mean, then?
In terms of the universe. It doesn't mean that the universe came about because of an individual mind or collective minds, since it is clear from above that that would be a mistaken accusation. OK.
But it should mean something about the nature of the universe. Not that minds created the realist universe. IOW a mind created galaxies and thigns unseen and the Big Bang. IOW minds didn't create an external universe, what a realist thinks of as a mind independing set of things that started before humans and will continue after humans and other sentient life forms if they die out. And parts of it haven't be experienced by humans.
It seems to me to your kind of non-realist that model of the universe is wrong.
Things only exist when experienced in your model, or?
What is the universe in your non-realist model? A collection of experiencings? Or......
And to be clear. I mean this as exploratory. I think your non-realism and other non-realisms (unles they are merely epistemological) come or entail a model of the universe or reality and that this is different from the realist one. You've been clear that there is no mind independent reality. So, what is that kind of universe like. I think we can all sketch the scientific realist model, with the Big Bang perhaps stuff before that in different models. A universe, a vast space with many things in it, existing for a long time before minds arose and so on. It's all there, now and was there but different in the past. The planet we just discovered last week in some solar system far away, well that was there for a long time before we noticed it. So there's this kind of stable space filled with stuff.
But what's your universe/reality like. I think it would be very different from that. So, what is your model, given your non-realism.
IWP:
You've been clear that there is no mind independent reality.
Not absolutely.
I have already stated many times I adopts Empirical Realism [mind-independence] which is ultimately subsumed within Transcendental Idealism [not mind-independent].
Within Empirical Realism, what is empirical [the apple out there] is independent of my mind.
Empirical Realism avoids solipsism, i.e. there are other empirical minds.
With reference to empirical realism, the Big Bang, the moon, the universes did exist prior to human existence.
But empirical realism in another higher perspective is subsumed within Transcendental Idealism which is NOT mind-independent.
The point is the hypothesis->theory of "Big Bang, the moon, the universes did exist prior to human existence" is conditioned within the human conditions.
To enable the emergence and realization of the above, the variable of empirical time, space are inevitably involved. Since time and space do not exist absolutely but are not-mind-independent, whatever the conclusions of the Big Bang cannot be mind-independent.
There are many ways to explain the above;
Reality: Emergence & Realization Prior to Perceiving, Knowing & Describing
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40145
Philosophical Realism is an evolutionary default ideologized.
Philosophical Realism [mind-independent reality] has failed to establish what is really real and besides it period-based pros, has contributed to much evil to humanity.
This is why ANTI-philosophical_realism did a 180 degree turn to ground reality on the human conditions [mind and body], e.g. Buddhism, Kantianism, anti-realist-QM such as Hawking model dependent realism.
Mlodinow: We Invent the Laws of Nature
viewtopic.php?t=40248
Hawking: My 'Brief History of Time' was Wrong.
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=39961
and there are many other threads I have raised to support the above points.