Numinosity

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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iambiguous
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Re: Numinosity

Post by iambiguous »

Maia wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 9:08 pm
iambiguous wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 8:53 pm
Maia wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 5:43 pm

I suspect that the spiritual experience itself is basic to all of us. The religious interpretations that people put on it, however, are products of human thought, and we all know how that can turn out. Personally, I try my best to strip away all such interpretation, though I'm not saying I'm completely successful in that.
It may well be basic but how it is manifested is, in my view, existential. And then the part where communication breaks down over and over again in regard to moral and political convictions. Someone may "just know" this is true spiritually about a particular set of behaviors while another "just knows" that it is not true spiritually.

And we will just have to agree to disagree regarding the role that dasein plays in all of this. The part where you agree that given new experiences, new relationships, and access to new information and knowledge you may change your mind about something. But only up to that crucial point...the part where your deep down inside spiritual Self makes the ultimate judgment. Something now completely alien to me.

Though even here this depends on the extent to which I understand your own frame of mind. Which, of course, takes me back to the no-getting-around-it fact that you and I have lived very different lives. So, really, what can we actually grasp about such complex assessments like these. I'm fractured and fragmented, you're not. In fact, I'm not even close to being on solid ground regarding my own sense of reality here.
I only know what I experience. I don't try and subject it to any sort of religious interpretation. I'm always more inclined to try and find a physical cause, in fact, hence my speculations about electro-magnetism. But this in no way detracts from the numinous or spiritual significance of the experience, because I don't think such things are separate from the physical world anyway, but rather, a natural part of it.
Yes, and given that all of us have once experienced and experience still things in our own lives that might be very, very different from what others here have, it becomes all the more problematic when we try communicate what we think and feel about things like numinosity. Some experience it through a God, the God, my God. Some through "the Gods". Some as pantheists through the universe. Some through nature. Some don't experience it at all. The part I root existentially in dasein. And in the Benjamin Button Syndrome. And in "the gap".

But the part that you attribute more to what I construe to be this deep down inside you intrinsic, spiritual, intuitive Self that transcends the existential parameters of my own considerably more fractured and fragmented "self".

And beyond that we may never go.
Maia
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Re: Numinosity

Post by Maia »

iambiguous wrote: Sat Jun 10, 2023 7:02 pm
Maia wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 9:08 pm
iambiguous wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 8:53 pm

It may well be basic but how it is manifested is, in my view, existential. And then the part where communication breaks down over and over again in regard to moral and political convictions. Someone may "just know" this is true spiritually about a particular set of behaviors while another "just knows" that it is not true spiritually.

And we will just have to agree to disagree regarding the role that dasein plays in all of this. The part where you agree that given new experiences, new relationships, and access to new information and knowledge you may change your mind about something. But only up to that crucial point...the part where your deep down inside spiritual Self makes the ultimate judgment. Something now completely alien to me.

Though even here this depends on the extent to which I understand your own frame of mind. Which, of course, takes me back to the no-getting-around-it fact that you and I have lived very different lives. So, really, what can we actually grasp about such complex assessments like these. I'm fractured and fragmented, you're not. In fact, I'm not even close to being on solid ground regarding my own sense of reality here.
I only know what I experience. I don't try and subject it to any sort of religious interpretation. I'm always more inclined to try and find a physical cause, in fact, hence my speculations about electro-magnetism. But this in no way detracts from the numinous or spiritual significance of the experience, because I don't think such things are separate from the physical world anyway, but rather, a natural part of it.
Yes, and given that all of us have once experienced and experience still things in our own lives that might be very, very different from what others here have, it becomes all the more problematic when we try communicate what we think and feel about things like numinosity. Some experience it through a God, the God, my God. Some through "the Gods". Some as pantheists through the universe. Some through nature. Some don't experience it at all. The part I root existentially in dasein. And in the Benjamin Button Syndrome. And in "the gap".

But the part that you attribute more to what I construe to be this deep down inside you intrinsic, spiritual, intuitive Self that transcends the existential parameters of my own considerably more fractured and fragmented "self".

And beyond that we may never go.
Yes, we're all different, and that's a good thing. I don't think it's problematic at all.
popeye1945
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Re: Numinosity

Post by popeye1945 »

Maia wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 8:41 am We all know it, I assume, the feeling that certain places have some sort of indefinable spiritual power or significance. In other words, they are numinous. But what causes this, and does it vary from person to person? Do Christians, for example, have this feeling inside churches? Perhaps they do, though I find churches to be quite lifeless and uninviting, even the medieval ones that are potentially interesting for historical reasons. For me, at least, I don't think I've had the feeling anywhere indoors at all. Outside, in nature, it's very different, but even then, certain specific locations stand out as being particularly powerful, where your skin literally tingles. For this reason, I've often thought that the feeling may be derived from something physical, such as electro-magnetism, but I suppose this would only apply if everyone could agree which places were special in this way. I strongly suspect, though, that our early ancestors were fully aware of this phenomenon, and that this formed the basis of the first religious beliefs.
Nature is the place this is most likely to occur when one can lose one's self in an awesome vista, to literally feel at one with your perception. I experienced this for the first time in my youth in the high Arctic of Baffin Island in Canada. I was shocked in a way, and didn't find words for the experience until much later. Some might say it was culture shock but no, it was more than that, and was repeated several times during my stay in the high Arctic. Something closely aligned with this experience is when one can lose one's self in the creation of something an artistic endeavor, where the world falls away and there is just you and the object of your creation. Horizons are important to the spirit in a way I cannot understand, but I came closer to understanding the native's spiritual bond with the land. Geography most definitely has an effect on the psyche, and so does the geography of the cities, closed in and without a horizon, a synthetic environment it too can be awesome with its skyscrapers, but in a less profound way.
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Re: Numinosity

Post by Maia »

popeye1945 wrote: Sat Jun 10, 2023 9:30 pm
Maia wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 8:41 am We all know it, I assume, the feeling that certain places have some sort of indefinable spiritual power or significance. In other words, they are numinous. But what causes this, and does it vary from person to person? Do Christians, for example, have this feeling inside churches? Perhaps they do, though I find churches to be quite lifeless and uninviting, even the medieval ones that are potentially interesting for historical reasons. For me, at least, I don't think I've had the feeling anywhere indoors at all. Outside, in nature, it's very different, but even then, certain specific locations stand out as being particularly powerful, where your skin literally tingles. For this reason, I've often thought that the feeling may be derived from something physical, such as electro-magnetism, but I suppose this would only apply if everyone could agree which places were special in this way. I strongly suspect, though, that our early ancestors were fully aware of this phenomenon, and that this formed the basis of the first religious beliefs.
Nature is the place this is most likely to occur when one can lose one's self in an awesome vista, to literally feel at one with your perception. I experienced this for the first time in my youth in the high Arctic of Baffin Island in Canada. I was shocked in a way, and didn't find words for the experience until much later. Some might say it was culture shock but no, it was more than that, and was repeated several times during my stay in the high Arctic. Something closely aligned with this experience is when one can lose one's self in the creation of something an artistic endeavor, where the world falls away and there is just you and the object of your creation. Horizons are important to the spirit in a way I cannot understand, but I came closer to understanding the native's spiritual bond with the land. Geography most definitely has an effect on the psyche, and so does the geography of the cities, closed in and without a horizon, a synthetic environment it too can be awesome with its skyscrapers, but in a less profound way.
Sounds like an awesome experience, and one that I find difficult to imagine, too. I've always felt drawn to the Arctic, places like Iceland, for example, with its rich mythology, though I've never been there. I've been to Canada, with my family, though we stayed in the Toronto area.
ThinkOfOne
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Re: Numinosity

Post by ThinkOfOne »

Maia wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 8:41 am We all know it, I assume, the feeling that certain places have some sort of indefinable spiritual power or significance. In other words, they are numinous. But what causes this, and does it vary from person to person? Do Christians, for example, have this feeling inside churches? Perhaps they do, though I find churches to be quite lifeless and uninviting, even the medieval ones that are potentially interesting for historical reasons. For me, at least, I don't think I've had the feeling anywhere indoors at all. Outside, in nature, it's very different, but even then, certain specific locations stand out as being particularly powerful, where your skin literally tingles. For this reason I've often thought that the feeling may be derived from something physical, such as electro-magnetism, but I suppose this would only apply if everyone could agree which places were special in this way. I strongly suspect, though, that our early ancestors were fully aware of this phenomenon, and that this formed the basis of the first religious beliefs.
A numinous feeling can also be triggered by music, can vary from person to person, the skin may literally tingle, etc. Merely a quirk of the nervous system. Through the centuries much music has been written to trigger such a response. Why seek to give numinosity any more significance than that be it triggered by sound, place or otherwise?
Maia
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Re: Numinosity

Post by Maia »

ThinkOfOne wrote: Sat Jun 10, 2023 11:23 pm
Maia wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 8:41 am We all know it, I assume, the feeling that certain places have some sort of indefinable spiritual power or significance. In other words, they are numinous. But what causes this, and does it vary from person to person? Do Christians, for example, have this feeling inside churches? Perhaps they do, though I find churches to be quite lifeless and uninviting, even the medieval ones that are potentially interesting for historical reasons. For me, at least, I don't think I've had the feeling anywhere indoors at all. Outside, in nature, it's very different, but even then, certain specific locations stand out as being particularly powerful, where your skin literally tingles. For this reason I've often thought that the feeling may be derived from something physical, such as electro-magnetism, but I suppose this would only apply if everyone could agree which places were special in this way. I strongly suspect, though, that our early ancestors were fully aware of this phenomenon, and that this formed the basis of the first religious beliefs.
A numinous feeling can also be triggered by music, can vary from person to person, the skin may literally tingle, etc. Merely a quirk of the nervous system. Through the centuries much music has been written to trigger such a response. Why seek to give numinosity any more significance than that be it triggered by sound, place or otherwise?
Music can certainly trigger strong emotions, as can many things, but I don't think they're quite the same.
ThinkOfOne
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Re: Numinosity

Post by ThinkOfOne »

Maia wrote: Sat Jun 10, 2023 11:42 pm
ThinkOfOne wrote: Sat Jun 10, 2023 11:23 pm
Maia wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 8:41 am We all know it, I assume, the feeling that certain places have some sort of indefinable spiritual power or significance. In other words, they are numinous. But what causes this, and does it vary from person to person? Do Christians, for example, have this feeling inside churches? Perhaps they do, though I find churches to be quite lifeless and uninviting, even the medieval ones that are potentially interesting for historical reasons. For me, at least, I don't think I've had the feeling anywhere indoors at all. Outside, in nature, it's very different, but even then, certain specific locations stand out as being particularly powerful, where your skin literally tingles. For this reason I've often thought that the feeling may be derived from something physical, such as electro-magnetism, but I suppose this would only apply if everyone could agree which places were special in this way. I strongly suspect, though, that our early ancestors were fully aware of this phenomenon, and that this formed the basis of the first religious beliefs.
A numinous feeling can also be triggered by music, can vary from person to person, the skin may literally tingle, etc. Merely a quirk of the nervous system. Through the centuries much music has been written to trigger such a response. Why seek to give numinosity any more significance than that be it triggered by sound, place or otherwise?
Music can certainly trigger strong emotions, as can many things, but I don't think they're quite the same.
I had in mind some of the music by Mozart or Arvo Part as a couple of examples:
"The 24th opens with a truly remarkable theme. It sounds as though it might have been composed 150 years later, with, what was for Mozart’s day, an outrageously chromatic melody that uses all 12 notes of the chromatic scale. So unique is it that in 1953 the German composer Giselher Klebe (1925 – 2009) used it as a tone row in his 12-tone Symphony for Strings. And yet, it’s stunningly moving, hauntingly beautiful in a dark and numinous way."

From <https://classicalmusiconly.com/discussi ... h-f829d48d>


Indeed, his deeply held Eastern Orthodox faith has inspired Arvo Pärt to capture an ethereal, numinous quality, ordinarily absent in more conventional forms of classical music, elevating his exquisite oeuvre to an otherworldly quality akin to the realm of the gods.

From <https://www.theculturium.com/arvo-part-silentium/>
Composers of been aware of evoking this feeling for quite some time.

Can you articulate what you think is different?
popeye1945
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Re: Numinosity

Post by popeye1945 »

ThinkOfOne wrote: Sun Jun 11, 2023 12:10 am
Maia wrote: Sat Jun 10, 2023 11:42 pm
ThinkOfOne wrote: Sat Jun 10, 2023 11:23 pm

A numinous feeling can also be triggered by music, can vary from person to person, the skin may literally tingle, etc. Merely a quirk of the nervous system. Through the centuries much music has been written to trigger such a response. Why seek to give numinosity any more significance than that be it triggered by sound, place or otherwise?
Music can certainly trigger strong emotions, as can many things, but I don't think they're quite the same.
I had in mind some of the music by Mozart or Arvo Part as a couple of examples:
"The 24th opens with a truly remarkable theme. It sounds as though it might have been composed 150 years later, with, what was for Mozart’s day, an outrageously chromatic melody that uses all 12 notes of the chromatic scale. So unique is it that in 1953 the German composer Giselher Klebe (1925 – 2009) used it as a tone row in his 12-tone Symphony for Strings. And yet, it’s stunningly moving, hauntingly beautiful in a dark and numinous way."

From <https://classicalmusiconly.com/discussi ... h-f829d48d>


Indeed, his deeply held Eastern Orthodox faith has inspired Arvo Pärt to capture an ethereal, numinous quality, ordinarily absent in more conventional forms of classical music, elevating his exquisite oeuvre to an otherworldly quality akin to the realm of the gods.

From <https://www.theculturium.com/arvo-part-silentium/>
Composers of been aware of evoking this feeling for quite some time.

Can you articulate what you think is different?
I think a better term for what I experienced was that of the sublime, one gets this shock or even a shattering experience by the immensity of something relative to oneself. One person stated in the blitz bombing of London during the war when one's life could end at any moment by the spectacular reign of terror, it was sublime. The vast expanse of space making one feel insignificant, a dust mote, is the sublime feeling. My experience was to lose myself to the grandeur of the vista as if it were an extension of myself, as if my I was now it. The experience grabbing and holding one in the moment. Shock, shattering, overwhelming, awesome, the sublime.
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iambiguous
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Re: Numinosity

Post by iambiguous »

Maia wrote: Sat Jun 10, 2023 9:24 pm
iambiguous wrote: Sat Jun 10, 2023 7:02 pm
Maia wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 9:08 pm

I only know what I experience. I don't try and subject it to any sort of religious interpretation. I'm always more inclined to try and find a physical cause, in fact, hence my speculations about electro-magnetism. But this in no way detracts from the numinous or spiritual significance of the experience, because I don't think such things are separate from the physical world anyway, but rather, a natural part of it.
Yes, and given that all of us have once experienced and experience still things in our own lives that might be very, very different from what others here have, it becomes all the more problematic when we try communicate what we think and feel about things like numinosity. Some experience it through a God, the God, my God. Some through "the Gods". Some as pantheists through the universe. Some through nature. Some don't experience it at all. The part I root existentially in dasein. And in the Benjamin Button Syndrome. And in "the gap".

But the part that you attribute more to what I construe to be this deep down inside you intrinsic, spiritual, intuitive Self that transcends the existential parameters of my own considerably more fractured and fragmented "self".

And beyond that we may never go.
Yes, we're all different, and that's a good thing. I don't think it's problematic at all.
Then I would suggest that you follow the news for a spell. It's a good thing until the way in which some are different from others ignites all manner of fierce conflicts. World wars have been fought over those differences. Here in America, the differences are often embedded and embodied in the politics of those living in either red states or blue states. And I'm sure there is the equivalent of that where you are too. Though of course nature itself doesn't choose sides. It can and will pummel the lives of those all up and down the moral and political and spiritual spectrum.
Maia
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Re: Numinosity

Post by Maia »

ThinkOfOne wrote: Sun Jun 11, 2023 12:10 am
Maia wrote: Sat Jun 10, 2023 11:42 pm
ThinkOfOne wrote: Sat Jun 10, 2023 11:23 pm

A numinous feeling can also be triggered by music, can vary from person to person, the skin may literally tingle, etc. Merely a quirk of the nervous system. Through the centuries much music has been written to trigger such a response. Why seek to give numinosity any more significance than that be it triggered by sound, place or otherwise?
Music can certainly trigger strong emotions, as can many things, but I don't think they're quite the same.
I had in mind some of the music by Mozart or Arvo Part as a couple of examples:
"The 24th opens with a truly remarkable theme. It sounds as though it might have been composed 150 years later, with, what was for Mozart’s day, an outrageously chromatic melody that uses all 12 notes of the chromatic scale. So unique is it that in 1953 the German composer Giselher Klebe (1925 – 2009) used it as a tone row in his 12-tone Symphony for Strings. And yet, it’s stunningly moving, hauntingly beautiful in a dark and numinous way."

From <https://classicalmusiconly.com/discussi ... h-f829d48d>


Indeed, his deeply held Eastern Orthodox faith has inspired Arvo Pärt to capture an ethereal, numinous quality, ordinarily absent in more conventional forms of classical music, elevating his exquisite oeuvre to an otherworldly quality akin to the realm of the gods.

From <https://www.theculturium.com/arvo-part-silentium/>
Composers of been aware of evoking this feeling for quite some time.

Can you articulate what you think is different?
The feeling I'm talking about seems specific to place. If the word numinous is considered to be too broad in its usage, then how about sacred, or enchanted? Not in a supernatural sense, though, because I don't think anything is above or beyond nature.
Maia
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Re: Numinosity

Post by Maia »

iambiguous wrote: Sun Jun 11, 2023 4:00 am
Maia wrote: Sat Jun 10, 2023 9:24 pm
iambiguous wrote: Sat Jun 10, 2023 7:02 pm

Yes, and given that all of us have once experienced and experience still things in our own lives that might be very, very different from what others here have, it becomes all the more problematic when we try communicate what we think and feel about things like numinosity. Some experience it through a God, the God, my God. Some through "the Gods". Some as pantheists through the universe. Some through nature. Some don't experience it at all. The part I root existentially in dasein. And in the Benjamin Button Syndrome. And in "the gap".

But the part that you attribute more to what I construe to be this deep down inside you intrinsic, spiritual, intuitive Self that transcends the existential parameters of my own considerably more fractured and fragmented "self".

And beyond that we may never go.
Yes, we're all different, and that's a good thing. I don't think it's problematic at all.
Then I would suggest that you follow the news for a spell. It's a good thing until the way in which some are different from others ignites all manner of fierce conflicts. World wars have been fought over those differences. Here in America, the differences are often embedded and embodied in the politics of those living in either red states or blue states. And I'm sure there is the equivalent of that where you are too. Though of course nature itself doesn't choose sides. It can and will pummel the lives of those all up and down the moral and political and spiritual spectrum.
The alternative, that we are all the same, would be unthinkable, and thankfully, impossible. We would never have evolved, without variation.
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iambiguous
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Re: Numinosity

Post by iambiguous »

Maia wrote: Sun Jun 11, 2023 7:07 am
iambiguous wrote: Sun Jun 11, 2023 4:00 am
Maia wrote: Sat Jun 10, 2023 9:24 pm

Yes, we're all different, and that's a good thing. I don't think it's problematic at all.
Then I would suggest that you follow the news for a spell. It's a good thing until the way in which some are different from others ignites all manner of fierce conflicts. World wars have been fought over those differences. Here in America, the differences are often embedded and embodied in the politics of those living in either red states or blue states. And I'm sure there is the equivalent of that where you are too. Though of course nature itself doesn't choose sides. It can and will pummel the lives of those all up and down the moral and political and spiritual spectrum.
The alternative, that we are all the same, would be unthinkable, and thankfully, impossible. We would never have evolved, without variation.
True. I was merely noting that, given myriad contexts, our differences are not just a good thing. And that following the news for a spell convinces most of how grimly problematic those differences can be.
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Re: Numinosity

Post by Maia »

iambiguous wrote: Sun Jun 11, 2023 7:01 pm
Maia wrote: Sun Jun 11, 2023 7:07 am
iambiguous wrote: Sun Jun 11, 2023 4:00 am

Then I would suggest that you follow the news for a spell. It's a good thing until the way in which some are different from others ignites all manner of fierce conflicts. World wars have been fought over those differences. Here in America, the differences are often embedded and embodied in the politics of those living in either red states or blue states. And I'm sure there is the equivalent of that where you are too. Though of course nature itself doesn't choose sides. It can and will pummel the lives of those all up and down the moral and political and spiritual spectrum.
The alternative, that we are all the same, would be unthinkable, and thankfully, impossible. We would never have evolved, without variation.
True. I was merely noting that, given myriad contexts, our differences are not just a good thing. And that following the news for a spell convinces most of how grimly problematic those differences can be.
You've presumably heard the phrase, no news is good news. Well, the reverse is true too.
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iambiguous
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Re: Numinosity

Post by iambiguous »

Maia wrote: Sun Jun 11, 2023 8:07 pm
iambiguous wrote: Sun Jun 11, 2023 7:01 pm
Maia wrote: Sun Jun 11, 2023 7:07 am

The alternative, that we are all the same, would be unthinkable, and thankfully, impossible. We would never have evolved, without variation.
True. I was merely noting that, given myriad contexts, our differences are not just a good thing. And that following the news for a spell convinces most of how grimly problematic those differences can be.
You've presumably heard the phrase, no news is good news. Well, the reverse is true too.
Not sure what you mean. Suppose, for example, the Supreme Court here in America issues a ruling that strikes down affirmative action. As they recently did in regard to abortion.

Well, until they do, and someone is in favor of affirmative action, then no news might be construed as good news. But I believe the ruling is expected any day now and for one side it will be deemed good news and for the other side bad news.

Numinosity then.

To the extent that I understand it, the difference between you and I here is that I believe that individual value judgments relating to things like affirmative action and abortion are rooted subjectively and existentially in dasein. And while you will agree with me that had your own life been different you might have come to different conclusions about them [and even Paganism itself], you are in possession of this "deep down inside you" spiritual/intuitive Self that "somehow" transcends dasein.

But, again, that's only a more or less educated guess on my part. I may be way off the mark here.

And that's the part derived, in my view, from the fact that the life you have lived and live now is one I can never really grasp "in depth" because my own life was and is so very, very different.

Here, I not only accept "failures to communicate" regarding "I" in the is/ought world of value judgments...I expect them.
Maia
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Re: Numinosity

Post by Maia »

iambiguous wrote: Sun Jun 11, 2023 8:37 pm
Maia wrote: Sun Jun 11, 2023 8:07 pm
iambiguous wrote: Sun Jun 11, 2023 7:01 pm

True. I was merely noting that, given myriad contexts, our differences are not just a good thing. And that following the news for a spell convinces most of how grimly problematic those differences can be.
You've presumably heard the phrase, no news is good news. Well, the reverse is true too.
Not sure what you mean. Suppose, for example, the Supreme Court here in America issues a ruling that strikes down affirmative action. As they recently did in regard to abortion.

Well, until they do, and someone is in favor of affirmative action, then no news might be construed as good news. But I believe the ruling is expected any day now and for one side it will be deemed good news and for the other side bad news.

Numinosity then.

To the extent that I understand it, the difference between you and I here is that I believe that individual value judgments relating to things like affirmative action and abortion are rooted subjectively and existentially in dasein. And while you will agree with me that had your own life been different you might have come to different conclusions about them [and even Paganism itself], you are in possession of this "deep down inside you" spiritual/intuitive Self that "somehow" transcends dasein.

But, again, that's only a more or less educated guess on my part. I may be way off the mark here.

And that's the part derived, in my view, from the fact that the life you have lived and live now is one I can never really grasp "in depth" because my own life was and is so very, very different.

Here, I not only accept "failures to communicate" regarding "I" in the is/ought world of value judgments...I expect them.
I don't believe in "dasein" so have no need to transcend it.
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