Veganism is a holocaust

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Sculptor
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Veganism is a holocaust

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Iwannaplato
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Re: Veganism is a holocaust

Post by Iwannaplato »

His argument works for people who hunt for their food. But the rest of us meat eaters, we are killing vastly more animals than vegans. Why? Precisely for the reason he gives. Farm animals human on factory farm grown plants. And those farmers who raise crops for farm animals kill animals just like he says. If you get grass fed meat only - which is better for you - then perhaps you have a chance. But both hunting and buying only grass fed meat is not possible for most people due to budget and access and then nature in the US, say, could not sustain 150 million hunters.
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Re: Veganism is a holocaust

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Iwannaplato wrote: Fri Jun 09, 2023 8:46 pm His argument works for people who hunt for their food. But the rest of us meat eaters, we are killing vastly more animals than vegans. Why? Precisely for the reason he gives. Farm animals human on factory farm grown plants. And those farmers who raise crops for farm animals kill animals just like he says. If you get grass fed meat only - which is better for you - then perhaps you have a chance. But both hunting and buying only grass fed meat is not possible for most people due to budget and access and then nature in the US, say, could not sustain 150 million hunters.
No. Not just that.

I live on the south coast of the Uk and behind my house there are two strategies.
1) Sheep farming.
2) Arable.
The pastures of the sheep are also home to dozens of grass species, shrubs, orchids, doch, dandelion, buttercup, daisies and a long list of other small flowering plants. There is the occasional stand of trees for shelter. Fox and badger are common and every day I see several species of bird from ravnas, sparrow magpie and birds of pray such as kestrals and kytes.
The soil is continually enriched with sheep shit. It is particularly wonderful at the moment as elderberries, hawthorn and gause bushes are in flower.
And the lambs are gambolling.
People like myself can be found walking, cycling with dogs or without, and enjoying the sun.

Alongside are the arable fields. Most of what is growing is wheat. It is all that grows in those fields ATM, though sometime the crop is changed to beet, peas, turnips. BUt whilst in the growing season it is MONOCULTURE. Nothing else is permitted to grow there.
Everyyear the soil is poisoned with insecticaide and herbicide, and "enriched" with chemical fertilizer, which leaches into the ground and gets into the water supply.
During the winter the plough removes all trace of life and the soil is little better than ground up chalk with very little humus.
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Re: Veganism is a holocaust

Post by Gary Childress »

The bottom line is, none of us are ever going to be angels. Maybe some of us will kill fewer living beings in our lifetimes than others. If that's how we're going to measure death and destruction committed by a human being, then we may as well compare the relative "virtuousness" of serial killers by body count. In the end, the best we can do is not kill each other and hope that most of what we do kill isn't sentient enough to feel pain. Perhaps shrimp aren't sentient, I don't know. But if shrimp can suffer and feel pain on par with a human being, then I suppose it's more ethical to kill one cow than kill a boatload of shrimp. Let's face it, life lives at the expense of other life. If God designed the universe, then God must have wanted mass extinction, carnivorous beings, and everything else.

I'm telling you, whatever made the universe, it wasn't anything remotely human or anything that thinks like a human. Can you name one human being (outside of a psychopath or something) who would design a universe full of death, pain, and suffering for all living beings? Shit, if I designed a world I wouldn't be able to sleep at night knowing that cute furry bunny rabbits were being torn apart by voracious wolves every day (let alone that human beings I care about were suffering). A human can empathize with the suffering of other beings. Apparently, God doesn't have that capability.
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Re: Veganism is a holocaust

Post by Iwannaplato »

Sculptor wrote: Sat Jun 10, 2023 12:05 am No. Not just that.
Well, sure it's not black and white, but the little video is very misleading: 1) because he compares veganism with hunting, which is a method used only by very few people and is not in reach for most people and 2) what meat eaters are, in general supporting which is what he is describing as applying to vegans only.
I live on the south coast of the Uk and behind my house there are two strategies.
1) Sheep farming.
2) Arable.
The pastures of the sheep are also home to dozens of grass species, shrubs, orchids, doch, dandelion, buttercup, daisies and a long list of other small flowering plants. There is the occasional stand of trees for shelter. Fox and badger are common and every day I see several species of bird from ravnas, sparrow magpie and birds of pray such as kestrals and kytes.
The soil is continually enriched with sheep shit. It is particularly wonderful at the moment as elderberries, hawthorn and gause bushes are in flower.
And the lambs are gambolling.
People like myself can be found walking, cycling with dogs or without, and enjoying the sun.

Alongside are the arable fields. Most of what is growing is wheat. It is all that grows in those fields ATM, though sometime the crop is changed to beet, peas, turnips. BUt whilst in the growing season it is MONOCULTURE. Nothing else is permitted to grow there.
Everyyear the soil is poisoned with insecticaide and herbicide, and "enriched" with chemical fertilizer, which leaches into the ground and gets into the water supply.
During the winter the plough removes all trace of life and the soil is little better than ground up chalk with very little humus.
The major feed grains for livestock are corn, sorghum, barley, and oats and those fields are treated much like the wheat fields. Vegans are directly eating vegetable proteins. Meat eaters are indirectly eating more pounds of grain and soy crops through the meat they eat. Sheep tend to graze, so that's generally peachy, but many farmers also supplemnt this with with feed grains anyway. The mainstays of pork and beef and chickens are primarily crops that requires precisely the kind of farming he is blaming vegans for. There are ways AS I MENTIONED to eat meat and reduce this kind of impact. But blaming vegans for processes that the vast majority of meat eater contribute per capita much more is unfair.

I mean, I eat meat, and vegans can be condescending and fascistic and I don't think their diet is right for the human body. But in general, the vast majority of meat eaters are creating more of the destruction he blames the vegans for.
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Re: Veganism is a holocaust

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

That makes sense.

Veganism, as an '-ism' ideology is stupidity and ignorance.
Note the Jains' ideology to the extreme of wearing mask so they insects and other living things do not get into the mouth and be killed; Jains will sweep the floor in front of them to avoid stepping on any living things and killing them.

They are ignorant of killing so many living things external and internal to them.
Despite wearing mask they do breathe in viruses and bacteria and these get killed by the immune system.
Millions of bacteria in the food they eat are killed by hydrochloric acid in their stomach and millions of viruses and bacteria are killed by the immune system elsewhere.

As in the video, it is evident millions of living things are killed in the clinging to veganism as an immutable dogmatic ideology.

Philosophically, human beings must be pragmatic and optimize their well-being against all existing constraints while needing to strive for continuous improvement in their moral progress to avoid evil acts.
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Sculptor
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Re: Veganism is a holocaust

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Iwannaplato wrote: Sat Jun 10, 2023 6:34 am
Sculptor wrote: Sat Jun 10, 2023 12:05 am No. Not just that.
Well, sure it's not black and white, but the little video is very misleading: 1) because he compares veganism with hunting, which is a method used only by very few people and is not in reach for most people and 2) what meat eaters are, in general supporting which is what he is describing as applying to vegans only.
I live on the south coast of the Uk and behind my house there are two strategies.
1) Sheep farming.
2) Arable.
The pastures of the sheep are also home to dozens of grass species, shrubs, orchids, doch, dandelion, buttercup, daisies and a long list of other small flowering plants. There is the occasional stand of trees for shelter. Fox and badger are common and every day I see several species of bird from ravnas, sparrow magpie and birds of pray such as kestrals and kytes.
The soil is continually enriched with sheep shit. It is particularly wonderful at the moment as elderberries, hawthorn and gause bushes are in flower.
And the lambs are gambolling.
People like myself can be found walking, cycling with dogs or without, and enjoying the sun.

Alongside are the arable fields. Most of what is growing is wheat. It is all that grows in those fields ATM, though sometime the crop is changed to beet, peas, turnips. BUt whilst in the growing season it is MONOCULTURE. Nothing else is permitted to grow there.
Everyyear the soil is poisoned with insecticaide and herbicide, and "enriched" with chemical fertilizer, which leaches into the ground and gets into the water supply.
During the winter the plough removes all trace of life and the soil is little better than ground up chalk with very little humus.
The major feed grains for livestock are corn, sorghum, barley, and oats and those fields are treated much like the wheat fields. Vegans are directly eating vegetable proteins. Meat eaters are indirectly eating more pounds of grain and soy crops through the meat they eat. Sheep tend to graze, so that's generally peachy, but many farmers also supplemnt this with with feed grains anyway. The mainstays of pork and beef and chickens are primarily crops that requires precisely the kind of farming he is blaming vegans for. There are ways AS I MENTIONED to eat meat and reduce this kind of impact. But blaming vegans for processes that the vast majority of meat eater contribute per capita much more is unfair.

I mean, I eat meat, and vegans can be condescending and fascistic and I don't think their diet is right for the human body. But in general, the vast majority of meat eaters are creating more of the destruction he blames the vegans for.
2/3rds of agricultural land is only available to pasture, since much of it is too steep or marginal for the plough.
Despite this massive resource, it is argued on the basis of efficiency that I should not eat meat due to the biomass produced from secondary consumers (livestock). Yet the Vegan militants insist.
Of course some of the grain produced is sued to feed livestock but this always results in the production of better quality food in nutritional terms.
Grains are increasingly being identified as a danger to human health for growing numbers of people. Not just celiacs disease but gluten insensitivity and soya allergies.
Chickens convert an ancestrally inappropriate food (grains) to one of nature's marvels. Eggs are packed with healthy fats and proteins, and fat-soluble vitamins like A, D and K. In eggs they are bioavailable too.

All food produced by Vegans represents an ecological holocaust. At least some meat production is more eco-friendly as it exploits the natural processes of nutrient cycling.
Real meat involves minimal processing and also offers organic products such as leather, bone, hoof and horn for fertilizer and other uses. And need I mention wool, lanolin, and rennet. Then there is also dairy, which does not suit everyone, but the world would be a sadder place without yoghurt and cheese.

Most Vegans argue about "cruelty". Meat is murder. Vegans kill as much or more than meat eaters.
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Re: Veganism is a holocaust

Post by Iwannaplato »

Sculptor wrote: Sat Jun 10, 2023 9:13 am 2/3rds of agricultural land is only available to pasture, since much of it is too steep or marginal for the plough.
Despite this massive resource, it is argued on the basis of efficiency that I should not eat meat due to the biomass produced from secondary consumers (livestock). Yet the Vegan militants insist.
Of course some of the grain produced is sued to feed livestock but this always results in the production of better quality food in nutritional terms.
Grains are increasingly being identified as a danger to human health for growing numbers of people. Not just celiacs disease but gluten insensitivity and soya allergies.
Chickens convert an ancestrally inappropriate food (grains) to one of nature's marvels. Eggs are packed with healthy fats and proteins, and fat-soluble vitamins like A, D and K. In eggs they are bioavailable too.
That's all great. But beside the point. For example, the chickens are eating grains grown like the wheat described in the video. I'm responding to his argument which in general is false. It works for people who eat hunted meat. People eating chickens (with a tiny minority of exceptions) are responsible for precisely the destruction he is talking about in his film. And for each pound of chicken many pounds of grains.
All food produced by Vegans represents an ecological holocaust. At least some meat production is more eco-friendly as it exploits the natural processes of nutrient cycling.
Some tiny portion. MOST of the meat eaters are per capita contributing to more of what you guys are calling a holocaust.
Real meat involves minimal processing and also offers organic products such as leather, bone, hoof and horn for fertilizer and other uses. And need I mention wool, lanolin, and rennet. Then there is also dairy, which does not suit everyone, but the world would be a sadder place without yoghurt and cheese.
And which vegans do not eat.
Most Vegans argue about "cruelty". Meat is murder. Vegans kill as much or more than meat eaters.
False. They kill less than the vast majority of meat eaters. Yes, meat eaters with money and/or access to hunting or if they eat only grass fed meat otherwise, may well end up causing less deaths. But that's a tiny, tiny percentage of meat eaters.

It's good to point out to vegans that really their position should be 'we kill less animals than most meat eaters' which is hard to get snobby about. They kill and they kill more animals than themselves. So they assume that their own one human life is more valuable than many animals lives. They differ from meat eaters by degree not quality.

But meat eaters, unless they are in that tiny, tiny percentage, cannot look down on vegans for killing more animals. That's a fantasy.

I get the rage at vegans, the more vocal ones certainly deserve rage.

I personally eat wild meat, though right now with food prices going up the way they are, I don't know how much longer I can afford to do that. Which sucks. And because wild meat is such a tiny portion of the meat eaten, those companies that distribute it cannot lower their prices. (nor could they possibly feed all the meat eaters).

Either you live near nature and have the time and skills to hunt or you've got the free extra cash to buy the right kind of meat. Otherwise, meat eaters are killing more animals.

And sure we get other uses from livestock. But there are also other problems. I mean, pig farm shit pollution. And given that most meat is produced via crop farming any bad side effects of that - not just on the animals in those fields - is their responsibility also.
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Sculptor
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Re: Veganism is a holocaust

Post by Sculptor »

Iwannaplato wrote: Sat Jun 10, 2023 10:20 am
Sculptor wrote: Sat Jun 10, 2023 9:13 am 2/3rds of agricultural land is only available to pasture, since much of it is too steep or marginal for the plough.
Despite this massive resource, it is argued on the basis of efficiency that I should not eat meat due to the biomass produced from secondary consumers (livestock). Yet the Vegan militants insist.
Of course some of the grain produced is sued to feed livestock but this always results in the production of better quality food in nutritional terms.
Grains are increasingly being identified as a danger to human health for growing numbers of people. Not just celiacs disease but gluten insensitivity and soya allergies.
Chickens convert an ancestrally inappropriate food (grains) to one of nature's marvels. Eggs are packed with healthy fats and proteins, and fat-soluble vitamins like A, D and K. In eggs they are bioavailable too.
That's all great. But beside the point. For example, the chickens are eating grains grown like the wheat described in the video. I'm responding to his argument which in general is false. It works for people who eat hunted meat. People eating chickens (with a tiny minority of exceptions) are responsible for precisely the destruction he is talking about in his film. And for each pound of chicken many pounds of grains.
All food produced by Vegans represents an ecological holocaust. At least some meat production is more eco-friendly as it exploits the natural processes of nutrient cycling.
Some tiny portion. MOST of the meat eaters are per capita contributing to more of what you guys are calling a holocaust.
Real meat involves minimal processing and also offers organic products such as leather, bone, hoof and horn for fertilizer and other uses. And need I mention wool, lanolin, and rennet. Then there is also dairy, which does not suit everyone, but the world would be a sadder place without yoghurt and cheese.
And which vegans do not eat.
Most Vegans argue about "cruelty". Meat is murder. Vegans kill as much or more than meat eaters.
False. They kill less than the vast majority of meat eaters. Yes, meat eaters with money and/or access to hunting or if they eat only grass fed meat otherwise, may well end up causing less deaths. But that's a tiny, tiny percentage of meat eaters.
NO.
All vegan food is murder. It is hypocrisy. I'm not claiming that eating meat does not involve cruelty, but that cruelty is not against the animal actually being eaten. Livestock are well cared for and enjoy a clean relatively painless death. They are offered shelter and veterinary care. No other animal except humans gets that privilege.

It's good to point out to vegans that really their position should be 'we kill less animals than most meat eaters' which is hard to get snobby about. They kill and they kill more animals than themselves. So they assume that their own one human life is more valuable than many animals lives. They differ from meat eaters by degree not quality.

But meat eaters, unless they are in that tiny, tiny percentage, cannot look down on vegans for killing more animals. That's a fantasy.

I get the rage at vegans, the more vocal ones certainly deserve rage.

I personally eat wild meat, though right now with food prices going up the way they are, I don't know how much longer I can afford to do that. Which sucks. And because wild meat is such a tiny portion of the meat eaten, those companies that distribute it cannot lower their prices. (nor could they possibly feed all the meat eaters).

Either you live near nature and have the time and skills to hunt or you've got the free extra cash to buy the right kind of meat. Otherwise, meat eaters are killing more animals.

And sure we get other uses from livestock. But there are also other problems. I mean, pig farm shit pollution. And given that most meat is produced via crop farming any bad side effects of that - not just on the animals in those fields - is their responsibility also.
Pig shit is a great natural fertilizer.
I'm not trying to promote the disgusting practices of the meat industry. I am saying that it needs not be the case.
I love pork and always buy free range - it tastes better too.
Iwannaplato
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Re: Veganism is a holocaust

Post by Iwannaplato »

Sculptor wrote: Sat Jun 10, 2023 10:41 am NO.
All vegan food is murder.
Why are you writing as if I said anything different?
It is hypocrisy. I'm not claiming that eating meat does not involve cruelty, but that cruelty is not against the animal actually being eaten. Livestock are well cared for and enjoy a clean relatively painless death. They are offered shelter and veterinary care. No other animal except humans gets that privilege.
But, again, the food most livestock eat leads to precisely the kinds of holocaust described in that film you have in the OP. And that would involved cruelty. And
AGAIN saying that livestock are treated well does not contradict anything I said.
Pig shit is a great natural fertilizer.
And that does not contradict what I said. Sure it can be, but it also a source of all sorts of problems.
I'm not trying to promote the disgusting practices of the meat industry. I am saying that it needs not be the case.
Great, finally the slightest concession that the video is misleading in a context where vegans are blamed for somehow creating more animal deaths than meat eaters. Yes, they cause deaths. But the meat industry is a creating vastly more animal deaths, and most of them indirectly. The op works well to show any vegan or non-vegan who thinks that being a vegan leaves one sinless in the killing of animals. I am with that. But meat eating in general is still killing many more animals. Yes, hunters like him, can cause less harm to animals. It is possible to eat meat and kill less animals than vegans. But it's rare.

Just cause the vagans present themselves in a false way doesn't mean we have to pretend that eating meat is the way only a few people eat meat.

I'm done on this topic.
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Agent Smith
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Re: Veganism is a holocaust

Post by Agent Smith »

I'm more interested in where this is going that where this is at! C'mon guys, let's follow the Dear Leader Kim No Meat!
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Agent Smith
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Re: Veganism is a holocaust

Post by Agent Smith »

Double post. Thank you
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Toppsy Kretts
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Re: Veganism is a holocaust

Post by Toppsy Kretts »

Gary Childress wrote: Sat Jun 10, 2023 12:31 am The bottom line is, none of us are ever going to be angels. Maybe some of us will kill fewer living beings in our lifetimes than others. If that's how we're going to measure death and destruction committed by a human being, then we may as well compare the relative "virtuousness" of serial killers by body count. In the end, the best we can do is not kill each other and hope that most of what we do kill isn't sentient enough to feel pain. Perhaps shrimp aren't sentient, I don't know. But if shrimp can suffer and feel pain on par with a human being, then I suppose it's more ethical to kill one cow than kill a boatload of shrimp. Let's face it, life lives at the expense of other life. If God designed the universe, then God must have wanted mass extinction, carnivorous beings, and everything else.

I'm telling you, whatever made the universe, it wasn't anything remotely human or anything that thinks like a human. Can you name one human being (outside of a psychopath or something) who would design a universe full of death, pain, and suffering for all living beings? Shit, if I designed a world I wouldn't be able to sleep at night knowing that cute furry bunny rabbits were being torn apart by voracious wolves every day (let alone that human beings I care about were suffering). A human can empathize with the suffering of other beings. Apparently, God doesn't have that capability.
i see you and i raise you 50.

IF i can relate this back to God, then i must. God created man in his image. his image is his creation. the plants and the beings residing along side us are either for us to wear in the essence of clothes or to consume as food. These things are natural and have been natural for thousand of years. i see that only recently have we thought to uncover the "life" inside of other living creature son Earth.

Thinking in such ways oi believe goes against the order of God, not directly stating "No i wont do that" but making the choice for our own that what he put hear and stated plain as day in the word he has for us is in a sense-"Im not because i feel"
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