Space & Time are Not Mind-Independent

Should you think about your duty, or about the consequences of your actions? Or should you concentrate on becoming a good person?

Moderators: AMod, iMod

Veritas Aequitas
Posts: 12357
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:41 am

Re: Space & Time are Not Mind-Independent

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Flannel Jesus wrote: Fri Jun 09, 2023 1:50 pm
Iwannaplato wrote: Fri Jun 09, 2023 1:38 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Fri Jun 09, 2023 9:03 am Thesis: There are objective moral facts, thus morality is objective because Space & Time are Not Mind-Independent, but rather are conditioned upon a specific human-based science-physics FSR-FSK.
Does this mean if you have someone, a child, a person who left school before they took science/physics, they don't experience time? I mean, I am sure this is not what you mean, or is not intentionally entailed by what you mean, but it sounds like it would be. Likewise with Space.
I see what you're saying here.

So if space and time are allegedly "conditioned upon a specific human-based science-physics FSR-FSK", then how is it that people who have no contact with those FSKs experience space and time?
I refer to "human-based science-physics FSR-FSK" because it is the most credible and reliable FSK amongst all others.

Space and time are deliberated within so many other less credible and reliable FSR-FSKs, e.g. common sense, theistic, general spirituality, the ancients, astrology, shamanism, etc.

All of reality and things are grounded on space and time,
Space and time are not mind-independent in the real sense,
Therefore, reality and things are not mind-independent in the real sense.

Space and time are real in the FSK-ed sense subject to the specific FSK's credibility, reliability and objectivity.
Atla
Posts: 6674
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:27 am

Re: Space & Time are Not Mind-Independent

Post by Atla »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sat Jun 10, 2023 1:45 am I have listened to many other related videos and they all have the same point, there is no real mind-independent time nor space. [as claimed by p-realists]
Guess you missed the part where Einsteinian relativity has passed every test ever.
popeye1945
Posts: 2130
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2021 2:12 am

Re: Space & Time are Not Mind-Independent

Post by popeye1945 »

Atla wrote: Sat Jun 10, 2023 4:01 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sat Jun 10, 2023 1:45 am I have listened to many other related videos and they all have the same point, there is no real mind-independent time nor space. [as claimed by p-realists]
Guess you missed the part where Einsteinian relativity has passed every test ever.
There is only one way of knowing anything, and that is on a subjective conscious level, what could be known outside of the subjective consciousness is impossible to know. Although science now tells us that it's all is energy. I have no idea just how they know this, but ultimately no matter how, if it is to be known it must be known by biological consciousness or not at all.
Atla
Posts: 6674
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:27 am

Re: Space & Time are Not Mind-Independent

Post by Atla »

popeye1945 wrote: Sat Jun 10, 2023 4:49 am There is only one way of knowing anything, and that is on a subjective conscious level, what could be known outside of the subjective consciousness is impossible to know.
So?
Although science now tells us that it's all is energy. I have no idea just how they know this, but ultimately no matter how, if it is to be known it must be known by biological consciousness or not at all.
No science doesn't tell us that all is energy.
Veritas Aequitas
Posts: 12357
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:41 am

Re: Space & Time are Not Mind-Independent

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Atla wrote: Sat Jun 10, 2023 4:01 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sat Jun 10, 2023 1:45 am I have listened to many other related videos and they all have the same point, there is no real mind-independent time nor space. [as claimed by p-realists]
Guess you missed the part where Einsteinian relativity has passed every test ever.
In this video referenced in the OP;

What’s Your Brain’s Role in Creating Space & Time?
https://youtu.be/OV9MnAZLmMQ?t=507

He alluded to the point that Einsteinian relativity is acceptable but "Einstein himself also hinted he did not buy the idea of time as independent of things that experience time. He said that, "Time is what clocks measure" suggesting that time isn't an absolute thing-in-itself , but rather something that emerges from the behavior of matter."
Atla
Posts: 6674
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:27 am

Re: Space & Time are Not Mind-Independent

Post by Atla »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sat Jun 10, 2023 5:41 am
Atla wrote: Sat Jun 10, 2023 4:01 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sat Jun 10, 2023 1:45 am I have listened to many other related videos and they all have the same point, there is no real mind-independent time nor space. [as claimed by p-realists]
Guess you missed the part where Einsteinian relativity has passed every test ever.
In this video referenced in the OP;

What’s Your Brain’s Role in Creating Space & Time?
https://youtu.be/OV9MnAZLmMQ?t=507

He alluded to the point that Einsteinian relativity is acceptable but "Einstein himself also hinted he did not buy the idea of time as independent of things that experience time. He said that, "Time is what clocks measure" suggesting that time isn't an absolute thing-in-itself , but rather something that emerges from the behavior of matter."
Clocks are also "things-in-themselves" in the external world.
Veritas Aequitas
Posts: 12357
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:41 am

Re: Space & Time are Not Mind-Independent

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Philosophical realism claims that all things are mind-independent.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_realism

Clocks are invented by humans with their mind.
As such, clocks cannot be mind-independent.
If there were no humans in the first place, there would be no clocks.

In this case, we can say clocks are human mind-dependent.
popeye1945
Posts: 2130
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2021 2:12 am

Re: Space & Time are Not Mind-Independent

Post by popeye1945 »

Atla wrote: Sat Jun 10, 2023 4:52 am
popeye1945 wrote: Sat Jun 10, 2023 4:49 am There is only one way of knowing anything, and that is on a subjective conscious level, what could be known outside of the subjective consciousness is impossible to know.
So?
Although science now tells us that it's all is energy. I have no idea just how they know this, but ultimately no matter how, if it is to be known it must be known by biological consciousness or not at all.
No science doesn't tell us that all is energy.
Do enlighten!
Atla
Posts: 6674
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:27 am

Re: Space & Time are Not Mind-Independent

Post by Atla »

popeye1945 wrote: Sat Jun 10, 2023 6:10 am
Atla wrote: Sat Jun 10, 2023 4:52 am
popeye1945 wrote: Sat Jun 10, 2023 4:49 am There is only one way of knowing anything, and that is on a subjective conscious level, what could be known outside of the subjective consciousness is impossible to know.
So?
Although science now tells us that it's all is energy. I have no idea just how they know this, but ultimately no matter how, if it is to be known it must be known by biological consciousness or not at all.
No science doesn't tell us that all is energy.
Do enlighten!
You do enlighten. How does science claim that all is energy?
popeye1945
Posts: 2130
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2021 2:12 am

Re: Space & Time are Not Mind-Independent

Post by popeye1945 »

Atla wrote: Sat Jun 10, 2023 6:17 am
popeye1945 wrote: Sat Jun 10, 2023 6:10 am
Atla wrote: Sat Jun 10, 2023 4:52 am
So?


No science doesn't tell us that all is energy.
Do enlighten!
You do enlighten. How does science claim that all is energy?
Energy equal mass at the speed of light squared. What were you basing your opinion on? It is generally accepted I believe that energy can neither be created nor destroyed but simply changes states.
Atla
Posts: 6674
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:27 am

Re: Space & Time are Not Mind-Independent

Post by Atla »

popeye1945 wrote: Sat Jun 10, 2023 6:20 am Energy equal mass at the speed of light squared. What were you basing your opinion on?
m = E/c^2
Science claims that everything is mass.

c = sqrt(E/m)
Science claims that everything is the speed of light.
popeye1945
Posts: 2130
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2021 2:12 am

Re: Space & Time are Not Mind-Independent

Post by popeye1945 »

Atla wrote: Sat Jun 10, 2023 6:27 am
popeye1945 wrote: Sat Jun 10, 2023 6:20 am Energy equal mass at the speed of light squared. What were you basing your opinion on?
m = E/c^2
Science claims that everything is mass.

c = sqrt(E/m)
Science claims that everything is the speed of light.
DUH!
Flannel Jesus
Posts: 2575
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2022 7:09 pm

Re: Space & Time are Not Mind-Independent

Post by Flannel Jesus »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sat Jun 10, 2023 1:45 am Did you notice the term "reality" in the following;

"Many scientists are accepting the DEMISE of Space-Time as a fundamental external objective reality."

I have listened to many other related videos and they all have the same point, there is no real mind-independent time nor space. [as claimed by p-realists]
I did notice the word reality, yes. Did you notice the word fundamental?

"Many scientists are accepting the DEMISE of Space-Time as a fundamental external objective reality."

That's a modifier that's really important here. Theres a big difference between saying "it's not a part of reality at all" and "it's not a fundamental part of reality".

It's not fundamental, because it is emergent.

There are plenty of things that, if you ask a scientist "does this thing exist?" most of them will say "yes", that are clearly emergent. Molecules and atoms. Human beings. These things aren't fundamental either. These things are all also "not a fundamental part of reality".
Veritas Aequitas
Posts: 12357
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:41 am

Re: Space & Time are Not Mind-Independent

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Flannel Jesus wrote: Sat Jun 10, 2023 6:40 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sat Jun 10, 2023 1:45 am Did you notice the term "reality" in the following;

"Many scientists are accepting the DEMISE of Space-Time as a fundamental external objective reality."

I have listened to many other related videos and they all have the same point, there is no real mind-independent time nor space. [as claimed by p-realists]
I did notice the word reality, yes. Did you notice the word fundamental?

"Many scientists are accepting the DEMISE of Space-Time as a fundamental external objective reality."

That's a modifier that's really important here. Theres a big difference between saying "it's not a part of reality at all" and "it's not a fundamental part of reality".

It's not fundamental, because it is emergent.

There are plenty of things that, if you ask a scientist "does this thing exist?" most of them will say "yes", that are clearly emergent. Molecules and atoms. Human beings. These things aren't fundamental either. These things are all also "not a fundamental part of reality".
Not too sure of your point.

My point is;
Obviously I was aware of the word 'fundamental' i.e.
=forming a necessary base or core; of central importance.

Note, whatever is emergent is emergent from a human-based FSR-FSK, then it is realized and subsequently perceives, known and described.

Time and space are the fundamental emergent from that primordial soup, thereafter from which all other things in reality emerged from.

The world is a n-dimensional energy soup; what is time & space are conditioned upon the organism's mind in evolutionary time, in the case of humans, the human mind.
15.10

All of the above is reducible to the Big Bang, but the theory of the Big-Bang is conditioned upon time and space.
Since time and space are not mind-independent, the Big Bang cannot be mind-independent.
What is left from all this is, reality cannot be mind-independent.
Rather reality as with facts, truths, knowledge and objectivity are conditioned upon a human-based* FSR-FSK,
since human-based involved the embodied-mind,
thus reality [what is real] cannot be absolutely mind-independent.

Why p-realists must speculate what is beyond the empirical to things independent of mind is due to an evolutionary default to soothe the related cognitive dissonances.
Magnus Anderson
Posts: 330
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2015 3:26 am

Re: Space & Time are Not Mind-Independent

Post by Magnus Anderson »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Sat Jun 10, 2023 5:51 amClocks are invented by humans with their mind.
As such, clocks cannot be mind-independent.
If there were no humans in the first place, there would be no clocks.

In this case, we can say clocks are human mind-dependent.
To say that something is mind-independent is to say that it cannot exist if minds do not exist. The fact that clocks were created by human minds does not mean they cannot exist without minds.

Remove all minds in the present day and you'll still have clocks existing out there.
Post Reply