Watch the video. Least coup-like "coup" the world has ever seen.Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Thu Jun 08, 2023 7:06 pm ..... and others were "falsely" charged with that, right?
That the Dems wanted to make a big deal of it doesn't change the video.
Watch the video. Least coup-like "coup" the world has ever seen.Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Thu Jun 08, 2023 7:06 pm ..... and others were "falsely" charged with that, right?
Here's what is curious to me. Why would we be offended when people say "the Left," if there's no such thing as "the Left"?Harbal wrote: ↑Thu Jun 08, 2023 7:32 pmYes, use the term "radical Cultural Marxists" instead of "the Left", so that those who are simply left leaning don't make the mistake of thinking you are referring to them, and only the radical Cultural Marxists need protest at your comments.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Jun 08, 2023 6:59 pmIf you say so.
Then let's call them what they are: radical Cultural Marxists. We can leave "left" and "right" totally out of it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WWV29M_f6oImmanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Jun 08, 2023 8:58 pmHere's what is curious to me. Why would we be offended when people say "the Left," if there's no such thing as "the Left"?Harbal wrote: ↑Thu Jun 08, 2023 7:32 pmYes, use the term "radical Cultural Marxists" instead of "the Left", so that those who are simply left leaning don't make the mistake of thinking you are referring to them, and only the radical Cultural Marxists need protest at your comments.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Jun 08, 2023 6:59 pm
If you say so.
Then let's call them what they are: radical Cultural Marxists. We can leave "left" and "right" totally out of it.
For then, there's no "Left" to be insulted by being called "Left." So why would we not call the Cultural Marxists "the Left," since they certainly are on the political left today, and dominate it almost completely?
Are you simply defending something like trade unionists? The soft socialists, maybe? Because I can certainly see good reason to do that; the Neo-Marxists are going to eat them alive, if they can.
What I am trying to defend is truth. Lying about your political opponents has reached obscene levels in these latter years, and even moreso since that shameless sociopath, Trump, finally opened the flood gates. Whether the dishonesty is at a rally in front of thousands, or on a small forum in front of a handful, makes no difference to the principle, and I despise dishonesty.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Jun 08, 2023 8:58 pmHere's what is curious to me. Why would we be offended when people say "the Left," if there's no such thing as "the Left"?Harbal wrote: ↑Thu Jun 08, 2023 7:32 pmYes, use the term "radical Cultural Marxists" instead of "the Left", so that those who are simply left leaning don't make the mistake of thinking you are referring to them, and only the radical Cultural Marxists need protest at your comments.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Jun 08, 2023 6:59 pm
If you say so.
Then let's call them what they are: radical Cultural Marxists. We can leave "left" and "right" totally out of it.
For then, there's no "Left" to be insulted by being called "Left." So why would we not call the Cultural Marxists "the Left," since they certainly are on the political left today, and dominate it almost completely?
Are you simply defending something like trade unionists?
Well, one cannot "lie" about an entity that does not exist.Harbal wrote: ↑Thu Jun 08, 2023 9:09 pmWhat I am trying to defend is truth.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Jun 08, 2023 8:58 pmHere's what is curious to me. Why would we be offended when people say "the Left," if there's no such thing as "the Left"?
For then, there's no "Left" to be insulted by being called "Left." So why would we not call the Cultural Marxists "the Left," since they certainly are on the political left today, and dominate it almost completely?
Are you simply defending something like trade unionists?
Doesn't claiming the existence of something that doesn't exist ammount to a lie? There is an arbitrary line in politics that we use as a divide between left and right, so I am not denying that there is a so called left and right, but the left is a spectrum, as is the right. You have selectively taken an unfavourable element within the left and are trying to present it as typical, which is dishonest of you.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Jun 08, 2023 9:27 pmWell, one cannot "lie" about an entity that does not exist.Harbal wrote: ↑Thu Jun 08, 2023 9:09 pmWhat I am trying to defend is truth.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Jun 08, 2023 8:58 pm
Here's what is curious to me. Why would we be offended when people say "the Left," if there's no such thing as "the Left"?
For then, there's no "Left" to be insulted by being called "Left." So why would we not call the Cultural Marxists "the Left," since they certainly are on the political left today, and dominate it almost completely?
Are you simply defending something like trade unionists?
When I say "the Left" I am quoting you, and referring to your evocation of an imaginary entity.If there's no such thing as "the Left," one cannot falsify anything concerning them. So whom do you mean, when you say "Left"?
Well, I think the Left exists, so it's not a lie for me. You might suppose it's an error and say so; but it's certainly not a lie.Harbal wrote: ↑Thu Jun 08, 2023 10:14 pmDoesn't claiming the existence of something that doesn't exist ammount to a lie?Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Jun 08, 2023 9:27 pmWell, one cannot "lie" about an entity that does not exist.
I don't think I have anything to add to what I've already said. I'm sure you, and anyone else who has followed our conversation, will have got the point I am making, even if you, or they, don't agree with it.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Jun 08, 2023 10:30 pmWell, I think the Left exists, so it's not a lie for me. You might suppose it's an error and say so; but it's certainly not a lie.Harbal wrote: ↑Thu Jun 08, 2023 10:14 pmDoesn't claiming the existence of something that doesn't exist ammount to a lie?Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Jun 08, 2023 9:27 pm
Well, one cannot "lie" about an entity that does not exist.
But if somebody says there's no such thing as the Left, he's undercut his own argument if he turns around and says, "Stop misrepresenting the Left." For him, there's no such thing -- he thinks. So nobody can misrepresent it. Nobody can rightly represent it, either, of course. It has no identity that a statement could possibly violate.
So if you think people can "tell lies" about it, you must know what the Left is. I just want to get on the same page with you about that.
...the left is a spectrum...
Ah. So you do believe there's such a thing as the left?
Well, a spectrum always runs from some point to some other. So I'm happy if you describe it as the interval between two extremes, so long as you say what those extremes are, so that I have some idea what you mean when you say, "the left...spectrum."
What are they?
Well, you said there's such a thing as the Left, and that you're offended if people "lie about" them...but then you said they're a "spectrum," and then that you were only using my language, not your own -- so presumably you both believe there's a Left, don't believe there's a Left, and think they're a spectrum.
This is ancient history by today's standards. A LOT has changed since then. You really need to get out of your ivory tower a bit more.Sculptor wrote: ↑Thu Jun 08, 2023 6:01 pm The longer and totally censored Humour of Ricky Gervais, because as we all know "You can't say that anymore".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UH4jaJzmrWU
I'm not offended, I am concerned. And I am equally concerned whichever side of the political spectrum the lies are aimed at. Are you okay with elections being won and lost on who can tell the most convincing lies?Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Jun 08, 2023 11:55 pmWell, you said there's such a thing as the Left, and that you're offended if people "lie about" them..
And that's your honest assessment of what I said, is it?but then you said they're a "spectrum," and then that you were only using my language, not your own -- so presumably you both believe there's a Left, don't believe there's a Left, and think they're a spectrum.
I can't even imagine what suggests that hypothesis to you.
Very much, it is. Why wouldn't it be?And that's your honest assessment of what I said, is it?but then you said they're a "spectrum," and then that you were only using my language, not your own -- so presumably you both believe there's a Left, don't believe there's a Left, and think they're a spectrum.
Yes you can.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Jun 09, 2023 1:40 amI can't even imagine what suggests that hypothesis to you.
No it isn't.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Jun 09, 2023 1:40 amVery much, it is.Harbal wrote: And that's your honest assessment of what I said, is it?
I can't even imagine how you've arrived at that assessment.After all, you've said all three things: that there's a Left you're thinking we can "lie" about, that it's not one thing but a "spectrum," and that the only reason you mention the Left at all is because you were adopting my language, not your own. You've certainly said all three.
I have absolutely no idea where you are coming from with this, IC, it's almost as if you are deliberately misrepresenting me.I just don't know which one you actually believe, because they contradict each other. But I'm certainly willing to hear it if you think there's some single theory that reconciles those claims.
You've got me wrong. Nobody's okay with that. It's incomprehensible that anybody would be. So I have to think your question's rhetorical; but I can't imagine what line of thinking would prompt it in the first place.
Look back at our last few exchanges: you'll find all three...but maybe you misspoke? I'm fine if you want to revise.I can't even imagine how you've arrived at that assessment.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Jun 09, 2023 1:40 amVery much, it is.Harbal wrote: And that's your honest assessment of what I said, is it?
After all, you've said all three things: that there's a Left you're thinking we can "lie" about, that it's not one thing but a "spectrum," and that the only reason you mention the Left at all is because you were adopting my language, not your own. You've certainly said all three.