A contradiction, I think, between "gender is a social construct" and trans-ness

Anything to do with gender and the status of women and men.

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Consul
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Re: A contradiction, I think, between "gender is a social construct" and trans-ness

Post by Consul »

FlashDangerpants wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2023 6:46 pm Gametes are explanatory of sexes, explanatory at a biological level anyway, they are not definitive and cannot be because otherwise untilt he discovery of the gamete by biologists we would have had no use for the words male and female. So that in itself is a perfectly good reason to shut this nonsense down right here and now.
No, it's not! That the English words "male" ("man"/boy") and "female" ("woman"/"girl"), and all the corresponding words in other languages had already existed and been used meaningfully by nonscientists before biologists defined them scientifically in terms of gametes doesn't mean that their (transhumanly applicable) scientific definition isn't now the relevant definition of sex in the current gender vs. sex debate.
FlashDangerpants wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2023 6:46 pmBut the actual reason to do so is that, either by design or through clumsiness, you are sneaking an essentialist definition into the conversation and you haven't made any argument for why essentialism is required. So I deny that move by simply offering a non essentialist definition that happens to allow for the real meaning of the terms male and female including things like motherhood and fatherhood and so on which you are excluding for absolutely no defensible reason.
Females participating in sexual reproduction become mothers, and males doing so become fathers—simple as that!

Okay, let's talk about human maleness and femaleness only. I'd like to see your non-essentialist definitions of these terms!

By the way, the gametic definition isn't quite as essentialist as you think it is, because it doesn't necessarily exclude those individuals from the sex-having ones who never actually produce any viable gametes during their lives for some reason or other, as long as they were determinately on a (somehow interrupted) developmental pathway to becoming an egg- or sperm-producer. Given this condition, the actual production of viable gametes during an individual's life isn't essential to its having a sex. For example, a boy castrated before puberty can then count as male, because he had the developmental potential to become a sperm-producer.
"Biological sex is defined as a binary variable in every sexually reproducing plant and animal species. With a few exceptions, all sexually reproducing organisms generate exactly two types of gametes that are distinguished by their difference in size: females, by definition, produce large gametes (eggs) and males, by definition, produce small and usually motile gametes (sperm). This distinct dichotomy in the size of female and male gametes is termed “anisogamy” and refers to a fundamental principle in biology.

Biological sex reflects two distinct evolutionary strategies to produce offspring: the female strategy is to produce few large gametes and the male strategy is to produce many small (and often motile) gametes. This fundamental definition is valid for all sexually reproducing organisms. Sex-associated genotypes or phenotypes (including sex chromosomes, primary and secondary sexual characteristics and sex hormones), sex roles and sexual differentiation are consequences of the biological sex. Genotypic and phenotypic features, as well as sex roles are often used as operational criteria to define sex, but since these traits differ vastly between sexually reproducing species, they only work for selected species."

(Goymann, Wolfgang, Henrik Brumm, and Peter M. Kappeler. "Biological sex is binary, even though there is a rainbow of sex roles." BioEssays 45/2 (February 2023): https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10. ... .202200173)
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Re: A contradiction, I think, between "gender is a social construct" and trans-ness

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Consul wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2023 8:01 pm Okay, let's talk about human maleness and femaleness only. I'd like to see your non-essentialist definitions of these terms!
If you know how to use a term you don't have to know how to define it.

You want to talk about maleness and femaleness - sure. In what context and to what end?
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Re: A contradiction, I think, between "gender is a social construct" and trans-ness

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Consul wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2023 7:12 pm
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 9:52 pm The 'gender self ID' bill was unanimously passed here, making it easy to change the 'sex' part on your birth certificate.
So much for the accuracy of future demographic statistics!
If transgenders are allowed to have their birth certificates changed, the falsification of official documents becomes legal.
Of course it means that.

The movement isn't about so-called 'trans' anyway. It's far, far darker. Why do people think these activists refuse to say what 'rights' they are being 'denied' that they are 'fighting for'? Why do people think the word 'inclusivity' is constantly being shoved down our throats as a great, woke virtue? Why their acronym just keeps getting longer and longer? What do wokies think the + is THERE for? Why has the LGB part of '2SLGBQTIZ+' divorced itself from their ridiculous growing acronym? Why does the so-called 'trans' movement attract and include every fetish you care to think of (without gagging)? 'The 'trans' movement is a male sex movement. A movement to 'normalise' sexual deviancy and eradicate the concept of womanhood. It's the ultimate misogyny. The 'trans' movement doesn't care about children. Children are nothing more than political tools and sex objects to them.
There's a very good reason for 'excluding' certain kinds of people from our lives. It's called 'survival'. 'Inclusive' means 'inclusive', which would mean inviting paedophiles and serial killers into our lives and schools. They don't need prison or lethal injections. They only need to feel welcome and 'included'. They need our 'kindness'.
The 'trans' movement is a movement of 'kindness'. Be 'kind'. To 'everyone'.

Statue in Denmark outside what was formerly called 'The Women's Museum', now called 'The Gender Museum'. Men have felt left out of activities like breast-feeding and childbirth. This is WRONG and CRUEL, and encroaches on the RIGHTS of misogynistic fetishists!

The whole world is being gaslit on a scale never before seen. Where it's leading doesn't bear thinking about. All we can do is watch in horror and wait for the explosion...



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Re: A contradiction, I think, between "gender is a social construct" and trans-ness

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I am familiar with the debate in the philosophy of science over essentialist conceptions/definitions of natural kinds versus non-essentialist ones: Are natural kinds (such as biological ones) best regarded as essence kinds or as cluster kinds (as Anjan Chakravartty calls them)?
"The most obvious and compelling sources of resistance to an exclusive commitment to kinds with essences are the sciences themselves. The kinds of objects investigated by the sciences are sometimes describable in terms of essences, but often resist this sort of description. The traditional view that kinds are ontologically distinguished by essences has a storied past, but many of the kinds one theorizes about and experiments on today simply do not have any such things. Many of these kinds are groups whose members need have no distinguishing properties in common, and this clearly violates the stipulation that essences comprise sets of properties that are necessary and jointly sufficient for kindhood. I will refer to kinds with essences and those without as essence kinds and cluster kinds, respectively. Canonical examples of essence kinds are familiar from physics and chemistry. The kind essence of an electron, for example, consists in a handful of determinate, state-independent causal properties (specific values of mass, charge, and spin) that are characteristic of all and only members of this kind. But not all kinds fit this model.

The best-known examples of cluster kinds are derived from attempts to explicate the species concept in biological taxonomy. It is generally agreed that the search for essences here has failed. For example, neither morphological nor genetic properties will do, due to intra-species variation and overlap with other species. Reproductive isolation is also often cited as the mark of a species. Imagine that such isolation could be accounted for in terms of sets of intrinsic properties shared by certain individuals which unite them reproductively and isolate them from others. This proposal is also inadequate to the task of specifying essences, for several reasons: hybridization violates reproductive isolation, and when it occurs offspring are sometimes fertile, thus compounding the problem; some subpopulations within species mate successfully with other sub-populations but not with all; focusing on these sorts of reproductive criteria ignores asexual species entirely. Furthermore, in keeping with both intuition and biological practice, membership in a species cannot be conceived in terms of necessarily possessing distinctive morphological or reproductive properties (that are jointly sufficient), for a sterile tiger would still be a tiger, as would a tiger with only three legs, or an albino. I will consider the different concepts of species in the next section, but for now let it suffice to say that none of them identifies species with essences as traditionally understood, in terms of intrinsic properties that are both necessary and jointly sufficient for membership.

Given the absence of kind essences for various things widely regarded as kinds, it is now common to relax the essence criterion in the demarcation of many scientifically sanctioned categories of objects. In such cases membership in a kind is usually described in terms of metaphors: clusters, family resemblance, or as Hacking (1991, p. 115) puts it, ‘strands in a rope’. These are polythetic kinds, meaning that the possession of a clustered subset of some set of properties, no one of which is necessary but which together are sufficiently many, entails kind membership. NE [The New Essentialism], which endorses the traditional appeal to essences in distinguishing kinds, is not surprisingly uncomfortable with cluster kinds."

(Chakravartty, Anjan. Metaphysics for Scientific Realism: Knowing the Unobservable. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 2007. pp. 157-8)
——————
"The standard alternative to kinds associated with necessary and sufficient conditions (‘definable kinds’, or to use a term that some scientists employ, monothetic kinds) is what is sometimes referred to as “cluster kinds” or polythetic kinds. Though cluster theories are familiar to philosophers and psychologists alike, they are mostly understood as theories of concepts or categories, rather than theories of kinds.

To avoid confusion I will try to be a bit more precise concerning the difference between monothetic and polythetic kinds. A monothetic kind is one that is associated with a property or set of properties each of which is singly necessary for membership in the kind and all of which are jointly sufficient. A polythetic kind is one that does not satisfy this condition. Members of a monothetic kind possess all and only the same properties, qua members of that kind, whereas members of a polythetic kind may not possess all and only the same properties qua members of that kind. In particular, if a kind is associated with a complex construction of properties, such as K1 = P1 & (P2 v P3), or K2 = P1 & (P2 v P3) & P4, then we cannot consider such a kind monothetic, on pain of stripping the distinction of any significance. The whole point of a cluster kind is that there is no unique set of properties that all and only members of that kind possess by virtue of being members of that kind. Two individuals can be members of K1 not by virtue of possessing exactly the same set of properties; for example, individual i1 might possess just P1 and P2, while i2 possesses just P1 and P3. Hence, K1 and K2 are not characterized by necessary and sufficient conditions for membership as ordinarily understood. If necessary and sufficient conditions were watered down in such a way as to allow these kinds, then the distinction between monothetic and polythetic kinds would disappear."

(Khalidi, Muhammad Ali. Natural Categories and Human Kinds: Classification in the Natural and Social Sciences. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 2013. p. 16)
——————
"The polythetic species concept was introduced by Beckner (1959) to replace the classical notion of universal class. He gave the name polytypic (later changed to polythetic) to classes that are defined by a combination of characters, each of which may occur also outside the given class and may be absent in any member of the class. The nature of polythetic classes can be illustrated by the following example (Sattler, 1986). Suppose a species is defined by a set of five properties Fl, F2, F3, F4 and F5. If these properties are distributed in the way shown in Table 2.1, the class will be polythetic. This example represents a polythetic class because each individual possesses a large number of the properties (i.e. four out of five), each property is possessed by a large number of individuals and no property is possessed by all individuals. Contrary to the situation with universal classes, no single property is either necessary or sufficient for membership in a polythetic class. The concept of polythetic class is extremely useful for dealing with biological entities endowed with intrinsic variability, since it can accommodate individual members that lack one or other character considered typical of the class. In this kind of class, certain elements may evolve and there is no difficulty in reconciling class membership with phylogenetic change. This makes a polythetic species similar to a fuzzy set (Beatty, 1982; Kosko, 1994) with boundaries that are modifiable and not uniquely defined. The view that species are sets has been elaborated by Kitcher (1984)."

(Claridge, M. F., H. A. Dawah, and M. R. Wilson. Species: The Units of Biodiversity. London: Chapman & Hall, 1997. p. 21)
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"The monothetic/polythetic distinction

Beckner (1959, p.21) sought to formalize Wittgenstein's notions, using the phrase "polytypic concept" vis-a-vis family, and the phrase "monotypic concept" vis-a-vis Aristotelian class. He defined a monotypic concept to be a concept whose extension is: A class (as) ordinarily defined by reference to a set of properties which are both necessary and suflicient (by stipulation) for membership in the class. Beckner presumed that the "extension" of a polytypic concept, on the other hand, would not be that for a monothetic concept: It is possible...to define a group K in terms of a set G of properties f1, f2,…,fn in a different manner. Suppose that we have an aggregation of individuals (we shall not yet call them a class) such that: (1) each possesses a large (but unspecified) number of the properties in G. (2) Each f in G is possessed by large numbers of these individuals; and (3) no f in G is possessed by every individual in the aggregate. By the terms of (3) no f is necessary for membership in this aggregate; and nothing has been said to warrant or rule out the possibility that some f in G is sufficient for membership in the aggregate. Nevertheless, under some conditions the members would and should be regarded as a class K constituting the extension of a concept defined in terms of the properties in G.

Sokal and Sneath (1963, pp. 13-14) changed the terminology to monothetic class and polythetic class; but they otherwise adopted Bechner's distinction, accepting and proselytizing polytypy as the rationale for a new direction they wished to give to numerical taxonomy: shifting emphasis away from monothetic dassification and towards computerized dustering schemes based on similarity (family resemblances)."

(Sutcliffe, J. P. "On the logical necessity and priority of a monothetic conception of dass, and on the consequent inadequacy of polythetic accounts of category and categorization." In New Approaches in Classification and Data Analysis, edited by E. Diday, Y. Lechevallier, M. Schader, et al., 55-63. Berlin: Springer, 1994. p. 57)
——————
"Polytypic Concepts: A class is ordinarily defined by reference to a set of properties which are both necessary and sufficient (by stipulation) for membership in the class. It is possible, however, to define a group K in terms of a set C of properties f1, f2,…, fn. in a different manner. Suppose we have an aggregation of individuals (we shall not as yet call them a class) such that:

1) Each one possesses a large (but unspecified) number of the properties in G

2) Each f in G is possessed by large numbers of these individuals; and

3) No f in G is possessed by every individual in the aggregate.

By the terms of 3), no f is necessary for membership in this aggregate; and nothing has been said to either warrant or rule out the possibility that some f in G is sufficient for membership in the aggregate. Nevertheless, under some conditions the members would and should be regarded as a class K constituting the extension of a concept defined in terms of the properties in G. If n is large, all the members of K will resemble each other, although they will not resemble each other in respect to a given f. If n is very large, it would be possible to arrange the members of K along a line in such a way that each individual resembles his nearest neighbors very closely and his further neighbors less closely. The members near the extremes would resemble each other hardly at all, e.g., they might have none of the f’s in G in common. Wittgenstein has emphasized the importance that concepts of this logical character assume in ordinary language, especially in that small segment of ordinary language that contains the semantical concepts of "meaning", "referring", "description", etc. He points out that all the members of such classes have a "family resemblance" to one another; he does not suggest a general term for classes of this kind. We shall call a concept C "polytypic with respect to C" if and only if it is E-definable in terms of the properties in G; its extension K meets conditions 1) and 2) above; and the E-defining test-procedure is intended to discover whether or not condition 1) is met. If the extension K in fact also meets condition 3), the concept will be said to be "fully polytypic with respect to G", or "fully polytypic" if C is understood.

In the case monotypic concepts (concepts defined by reference to a property which is necessary and sufficient for membership in its extension), purely syntactical criteria guarantee the existence of an extension. If, for example, we have a number of classes w, x, y,…, any function of these classes (subject to certain type or stratification restrictions) is itself a class: either a class of elements or the null class. The satisfaction of syntactical requirements does not, however, guarantee the existence of a polytypic class."

(Beckner, Morton. The Biological Way of Thought. 1959. Reprint, Berkeley: University of California Press, 1968. pp. 22-3)
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"Biologists owe a debt of gratitude to Beckner (1959) for the first clear enunciation known to us of one important concept of natural taxa, a concept which Beckner calls "polytypic". Since this term and its converse, "monotypic", have meanings already well established in systematics, Sneath (1962) has suggested that "polythetic" and "monothetic" are better names (from poly: "many", mono: "one", thetos: "arrangement")."

(Sokal, Robert R., and Peter H. A. Sneath. Principles of Numerical Taxonomy. San Francisco: W. H. Freeman & Co., 1963. p. 13)
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Re: A contradiction, I think, between "gender is a social construct" and trans-ness

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Consul wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2023 7:05 pm
Sculptor wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 3:59 pmGender and biological sex are so obvious NOT the same thing: check out any definition.
Gender is different from sex—unless it's not: "gender = either of the two divisions, designated female and male, by which most organisms are classified on the basis of their reproductive organs and functions; sex." (One of the meanings of "gender" in the American Heritage Dictionary)

Given that one common meaning of "gender" is "sex", gender and sex are NOT "so obvious NOT the same thing."
Sculptor wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 3:59 pmAnd NEITHER gender nor biological sex are simply binary.
In anisogametic species (like homo sapiens), sex is simply binary in the sense that there are exactly two types of gametes involved in sexual reproduction: ova & spermia.
No you are simply wrong. There are children born as girls in a very literal sense and transform into boys in puberty; There are interesex, intermediate sex and hermaphrodites too. With the obvious and additional problem of trans gender where the brain is one sex and the rest of the body another.
It's churlish to deny that simple fact. If you have a problem with that then you need to educate yourself.
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Re: A contradiction, I think, between "gender is a social construct" and trans-ness

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Michel Foucault: Darling and father of the modern 'trans' movement.

''Foucault argued that children could give sexual consent. In 1977, along with Jean-Paul Sartre, Jacques Derrida, and other intellectuals, Foucault signed a petition to the French parliament calling for the decriminalization of all "consensual" sexual relations between adults and minors below the age of fifteen, the age of consent in France.''
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Re: A contradiction, I think, between "gender is a social construct" and trans-ness

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

Sculptor wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2023 8:19 pm
Consul wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2023 7:05 pm
Sculptor wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 3:59 pmGender and biological sex are so obvious NOT the same thing: check out any definition.
Gender is different from sex—unless it's not: "gender = either of the two divisions, designated female and male, by which most organisms are classified on the basis of their reproductive organs and functions; sex." (One of the meanings of "gender" in the American Heritage Dictionary)

Given that one common meaning of "gender" is "sex", gender and sex are NOT "so obvious NOT the same thing."
Sculptor wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 3:59 pmAnd NEITHER gender nor biological sex are simply binary.
In anisogametic species (like homo sapiens), sex is simply binary in the sense that there are exactly two types of gametes involved in sexual reproduction: ova & spermia.
No you are simply wrong. There are children born as girls in a very literal sense and transform into boys in puberty; There are interesex, intermediate sex and hermaphrodites too. With the obvious and additional problem of trans gender where the brain is one sex and the rest of the body another.
It's churlish to deny that simple fact. If you have a problem with that then you need to educate yourself.
'The brain is one 'sex' and the body is another'. How do you even manage to spew such shit without gagging?
No one is born with the 'wrong body'. If someone thinks that about themselves then they are mentally ill and need psychological help, not puberty blockers and mutilation.
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Re: A contradiction, I think, between "gender is a social construct" and trans-ness

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Skepdick wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2023 8:05 pm
Consul wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2023 8:01 pm Okay, let's talk about human maleness and femaleness only. I'd like to see your non-essentialist definitions of these terms!
If you know how to use a term you don't have to know how to define it.
You want to talk about maleness and femaleness - sure. In what context and to what end?
US Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart famously said that he could not use words to describe pornography but "I know it when I see it."
Well, in the context of the gender vs. sex debate we cannot be satisfied with this kind of answer, especially as it's blatantly circular to define "male" as "looks male" and "female" as "looks female". There are male transvestites who do look female without being female.
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Re: A contradiction, I think, between "gender is a social construct" and trans-ness

Post by vegetariantaxidermy »

And what's with the fucking 'pronoun' obsession?? FFS. Some people have REAL problems!

I got a letter the other day from a Govt. department. The 'I-don't-know-from-a-bar-of-soap' name signed at the end had in brackets next to their name (she/her). Now this was an official letter. Why in the name of flying rat-fucks would I need to know what this fuckwit's 'preferred pronouns' are? Why not just tell me their sexual preferences while they are about it, or whether or not they are 'gluton/lactose' fucking intolerant???
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Re: A contradiction, I think, between "gender is a social construct" and trans-ness

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Consul wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2023 8:35 pm US Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart famously said that he could not use words to describe pornography but "I know it when I see it."
Well, in the context of the gender vs. sex debate we cannot be satisfied with this kind of answer, especially as it's blatantly circular to define "male" as "looks male" and "female" as "looks female". There are male transvestites who do look female without being female.
It's not circular - it's recursive, but that's just an artefact of language as a whole.

The very attempt to define "define" introduces additional undefined terms which themselves require definition.
And in attempting to define the undefined terms used in the definition of "define" you introduce even more undefined terms - it's a combinatorial explosion.

The "define it" game is a stupid game.

There are sufficient descriptions/definitions for particular purposes. The end.
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Re: A contradiction, I think, between "gender is a social construct" and trans-ness

Post by Consul »

Sculptor wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2023 8:19 pm
Consul wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2023 7:05 pmIn anisogametic species (like homo sapiens), sex is simply binary in the sense that there are exactly two types of gametes involved in sexual reproduction: ova & spermia.
No you are simply wrong. There are children born as girls in a very literal sense and transform into boys in puberty; There are interesex, intermediate sex and hermaphrodites too.
No, I'm not wrong! The existence of various kinds of intersex conditions doesn't refute my statement, because all non-sterile human intersexuals produce either ova or spermia. No kind of intersex condition constitutes a third sex, because it doesn't involve the production of any third type of gametes other than ova or spermia. There are extremely rare cases of intersexuals with both ovarian and testicular tissue in their bodies, but none of the non-sterile ones among them are known to be genuine simultaneous hermaphrodites, because they produce either ova or sperm, and not both.

By the way, simultaneous hermaphroditism isn't the only form of it, because there is also sequential hermaphroditism, where an organism is first male and then female, or vice versa. However, sequential hermaphroditism doesn't occur in our species homo sapiens; and simultaneous hermaphroditism isn't known to occur therein either.
"A hermaphrodite is an individual that produces functional male gametes and female gametes (sex cells) during its lifetime."

(Avise, John C. Hermaphroditism: A Primer on the Biology, Ecology, and Evolution of Dual Sexuality. New York: Columbia University Press, 2011. p. 1)
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Re: A contradiction, I think, between "gender is a social construct" and trans-ness

Post by Iwannaplato »

Consul wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2023 6:55 pm
Iwannaplato wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 1:42 pm Misgendering, it seems, has become an instance not merely of making a mistake, but an incident with a victim.
The Woke regard "misgendering" as a crime.
Which it should not be seen as.
This has got to be serving someone's interests other than transsexuals.
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Re: A contradiction, I think, between "gender is a social construct" and trans-ness

Post by Consul »

Consul wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2023 8:54 pm
"A hermaphrodite is an individual that produces functional male gametes and female gametes (sex cells) during its lifetime."

(Avise, John C. Hermaphroditism: A Primer on the Biology, Ecology, and Evolution of Dual Sexuality. New York: Columbia University Press, 2011. p. 1)
The mere presence of both (more or less developed) ovarian tissue and (more or less developed) testicular tissue in one organism is sometimes called "true hermaphroditism"; but given Avise's definition, this isn't sufficient for true or genuine (simultaneous) hermaphroditism, because it is also required that the ovarian/testicular tissue be normally developed to such a degree that it can produce viable female/male gametes.
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Re: A contradiction, I think, between "gender is a social construct" and trans-ness

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Consul wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2023 8:54 pm No, I'm not wrong! The existence of various kinds of intersex conditions doesn't refute my statement, because all non-sterile human intersexuals produce either ova or spermia.
Then why not use terminology such as ovulator and spermiator? Such terminology would certainly bring the gametes into focus and would be far more informative than nonsense such as "male" and "female".
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Re: A contradiction, I think, between "gender is a social construct" and trans-ness

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vegetariantaxidermy wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2023 8:11 pm What do wokies think the + is THERE for?
That's the category whatever. :wink:
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