Materialism: How doubt could be real?

[bahman]

Correct. I could not. I don't think our knowledge is complete in a determinist universe. Nor in a free will one, but a determinist one is the topic. So, yeah. I don't know. But this doesn't mean it can't be a determinist universe where I don't know everything.

A non-omniscient creature in a determined world.
That doesn't sound self-contradictory to me.


The doubt is real. In a determined universe, people could be determined to feel doubt or could think there are a couple of options for the next future state. I experience doubt. I experience not knowing. I see no problem with that happening in a determined universe. A cat walks past a mirror and sees 'another cat.' I think that also could happen in a determined universe without there being another cat that looks just like this one in the area.

We reach a good point by you accepting that doubt is real.

Does absolutely ANY one NOT accept that doubt is real?

Yes, there are people who even think that consciousness is an illusion.

I think that we can also agree on the fact that you pause for a while until you make a decision when you have doubts too.

Does ANY one NOT accept this?

Yes.

If this is true then your brain is also in an undetermined physical state because you are in an undecided state and pause for a while.

LOL but the physical brain, itself, is NOT in a so-called 'undetermined physical state'.

I didn't say so. You are better to reread what I wrote.

What is happening here is 'you' are allowing 'your' OWN doubt about what is ACTUALLY True become DISTORTED from what 'you' ALREADY currently BELIEVE is true.

What?

That is true since the phenomena of doubt cannot only coincidentally coincide with when you pause. Therefore there is a relationship between doubt and when your brain is in an undetermined physical state.

'you' are VERY, VERY CONFUSED here.

BUT, 'you' BELIEVE 'you' are NOT so 'you' will NOT LISTEN to this NOR ACCEPT this, and so will NOT DISCUSS this.

No, I am very clear.

[Age]

But from your perspective, your subjective experience, you cannot tell which option is an illusion and which option is real. Could you?

YES.

You can?

YES.

[Iwannaplato]

I said that your brain is in an undecided state. Of course, your neurons keep firing.

Your brain is in a single particular state that you experience as 'undecided'. And the next moment is determined utterly by that state. I didn't say that you said your neurons stopped firing. The state of being undecided may feel like two possible events could come after, but only one will. In a determined universe. If there's free will, well then that wouldn't be dependent on indecision. One would be free all the time. But then I already said this.

[Age]

We reach a good point by you accepting that doubt is real.

Does absolutely ANY one NOT accept that doubt is real?

Yes, there are people who even think that consciousness is an illusion.

Who?

Are they posting in this forum?

Also, if they only 'think' that consciousness is an illusion, then they have, or this is, 'doubt'. Therefore, how can they, logically, NOT ACCEPT that doubt is real?

I think that we can also agree on the fact that you pause for a while until you make a decision when you have doubts too.

Does ANY one NOT accept this?

Yes.

Who, EXACTLY?

If this is true then your brain is also in an undetermined physical state because you are in an undecided state and pause for a while.

LOL but the physical brain, itself, is NOT in a so-called 'undetermined physical state'.

I didn't say so. You are better to reread what I wrote.

You better rewrite what you previously SAID and WROTE. What you previously WROTE, SAID, and thus CLAIMED was:

We reach a good point by you accepting that doubt is real. I think that we can also agree on the fact that you pause for a while until you make a decision when you have doubts too. If this is true then your brain is also in an undetermined physical state because you are in an undecided state and pause for a while. That is true since the phenomena of doubt cannot only coincidentally coincide with when you pause. Therefore there is a relationship between doubt and when your brain is in an undetermined physical state.

You, OBVIOUSLY, SAID, 'your brain is in an 'undertermined physical state'.

And, until it is shown otherwise I STILL MAINTAIN that the physical brain, itself, is NOT in a so-called 'undetermined physical state'. This is because the physical state of the physical brain is ALWAYS determined. Just like ALL other visible physical matter IS.

What is happening here is 'you' are allowing 'your' OWN doubt about what is ACTUALLY True become DISTORTED from what 'you' ALREADY currently BELIEVE is true.

What?

'you' are being BLINDED here by 'your' OWN DISTORTIONS, which were and are being caused by your ALREADY OBTAINED False, Wrong, AND Incorrect BELIEFS and ASSUMPTIONS here.

That is true since the phenomena of doubt cannot only coincidentally coincide with when you pause. Therefore there is a relationship between doubt and when your brain is in an undetermined physical state.

'you' are VERY, VERY CONFUSED here.

BUT, 'you' BELIEVE 'you' are NOT so 'you' will NOT LISTEN to this NOR ACCEPT this, and so will NOT DISCUSS this.

No, I am very clear.

LOL Okay if you say and BELIEVE SO.

But WHY can you NOT make 'it' CLEAR to absolutely ANY one else here, NOR even be able back up and support, what is, supposedly and allegedly, CLEAR, to you?

Also, WHY do you appear to NOT have the ability to just acknowledge when the FLAWS in 'your' thinking and views are POINTED OUT and SHOWN here, to you, be able to COUNTER what is being PRESENTED to you, NOR even be able to just CLARIFY ALL of the questions asked to you here?

[Age]

I said that your brain is in an undecided state. Of course, your neurons keep firing.

Your brain is in a single particular state that you experience as 'undecided'. And the next moment is determined utterly by that state. I didn't say that you said your neurons stopped firing. The state of being undecided may feel like two possible events will come after, but only one will. In a determined universe. If there's free will, well then that wouldn't be dependent on indecision. One would be free all the time. But then I already said this.

One would ONLY 'free' ALL THE TIME ONLY IF there was ONLY 'free will'. But, OBVIOUSLY, there is NOT ONLY 'free will'. So, what you wrote here IS MOOT.

[Agent Smith]

The argument for the existence and irreducibility of the mind. Interested?

I see. I was hopin', absit iniuria, for somethin' original.

That is original.

Kudos to you then!

[bahman]

I said that your brain is in an undecided state. Of course, your neurons keep firing.

Your brain is in a single particular state that you experience as 'undecided'. And the next moment is determined utterly by that state. I didn't say that you said your neurons stopped firing. The state of being undecided may feel like two possible events could come after, but only one will. In a determined universe. If there's free will, well then that wouldn't be dependent on indecision. One would be free all the time. But then I already said this.

My first question is how you could have an undecided state in a deterministic universe. My second question is how a system in an undecided state could turn into a determined state instead of halting forever. Please note that we are discussing materialism in which there is no concept of free will. Of course, you need to be free in order to overcome doubt and make a decision but that is another topic.

[bahman]

Does absolutely ANY one NOT accept that doubt is real?

Yes, there are people who even think that consciousness is an illusion.

Who?

Are they posting in this forum?

Also, if they only 'think' that consciousness is an illusion, then they have, or this is, 'doubt'. Therefore, how can they, logically, NOT ACCEPT that doubt is real?

Does ANY one NOT accept this?

Yes.

Who, EXACTLY?

Almost all physicalists.

LOL but the physical brain, itself, is NOT in a so-called 'undetermined physical state'.

I didn't say so. You are better to reread what I wrote.

You better rewrite what you previously SAID and WROTE. What you previously WROTE, SAID, and thus CLAIMED was:

We reach a good point by you accepting that doubt is real. I think that we can also agree on the fact that you pause for a while until you make a decision when you have doubts too. If this is true then your brain is also in an undetermined physical state because you are in an undecided state and pause for a while. That is true since the phenomena of doubt cannot only coincidentally coincide with when you pause. Therefore there is a relationship between doubt and when your brain is in an undetermined physical state.

You, OBVIOUSLY, SAID, 'your brain is in an 'undertermined physical state'.

And, until it is shown otherwise I STILL MAINTAIN that the physical brain, itself, is NOT in a so-called 'undetermined physical state'. This is because the physical state of the physical brain is ALWAYS determined. Just like ALL other visible physical matter IS.

I should have said undecided instead of undetermined.

What is happening here is 'you' are allowing 'your' OWN doubt about what is ACTUALLY True become DISTORTED from what 'you' ALREADY currently BELIEVE is true.

What?

'you' are being BLINDED here by 'your' OWN DISTORTIONS, which were and are being caused by your ALREADY OBTAINED False, Wrong, AND Incorrect BELIEFS and ASSUMPTIONS here.

'you' are VERY, VERY CONFUSED here.

BUT, 'you' BELIEVE 'you' are NOT so 'you' will NOT LISTEN to this NOR ACCEPT this, and so will NOT DISCUSS this.

No, I am very clear.

LOL Okay if you say and BELIEVE SO.

But WHY can you NOT make 'it' CLEAR to absolutely ANY one else here, NOR even be able back up and support, what is, supposedly and allegedly, CLEAR, to you?

Also, WHY do you appear to NOT have the ability to just acknowledge when the FLAWS in 'your' thinking and views are POINTED OUT and SHOWN here, to you, be able to COUNTER what is being PRESENTED to you, NOR even be able to just CLARIFY ALL of the questions asked to you here?

Replace undetermined by undecided in my argument and reread it.

[Age]

I said that your brain is in an undecided state. Of course, your neurons keep firing.

Your brain is in a single particular state that you experience as 'undecided'. And the next moment is determined utterly by that state. I didn't say that you said your neurons stopped firing. The state of being undecided may feel like two possible events could come after, but only one will. In a determined universe. If there's free will, well then that wouldn't be dependent on indecision. One would be free all the time. But then I already said this.

My first question is how you could have an undecided state in a deterministic universe.

VERY EASILY.

My second question is how a system in an undecided state could turn into a determined state instead of halting forever.

The ONLY 'system', which I am aware of, that can be in a so-called 'undecided state' are animals, and animals do NOT, again as far as I am aware, turn out of a 'determined state'. Although 'doubt' or 'undecidedness' can exist VERY EASILY, and VERY OBVIOUSLY, with animal bodies.

Please note that we are discussing materialism in which there is no concept of free will.

BUT 'free will' AND 'the concept of free will' BOTH exist IN and alongside WITH 'materialism'.

But, then again, I DO LOOK AT and SEE a LOT of 'things' VERY DIFFERENTLY than 'you', human beings.

Of course, you need to be free in order to overcome doubt and make a decision but that is another topic.

But what CAUSED 'you' to BE FREE?

[bahman]

Your brain is in a single particular state that you experience as 'undecided'. And the next moment is determined utterly by that state. I didn't say that you said your neurons stopped firing. The state of being undecided may feel like two possible events could come after, but only one will. In a determined universe. If there's free will, well then that wouldn't be dependent on indecision. One would be free all the time. But then I already said this.

My first question is how you could have an undecided state in a deterministic universe.

VERY EASILY.

Tell me how?

My second question is how a system in an undecided state could turn into a determined state instead of halting forever.

The ONLY 'system', which I am aware of, that can be in a so-called 'undecided state' are animals, and animals do NOT, again as far as I am aware, turn out of a 'determined state'. Although 'doubt' or 'undecidedness' can exist VERY EASILY, and VERY OBVIOUSLY, with animal bodies.

Tell me how?

Please note that we are discussing materialism in which there is no concept of free will.

BUT 'free will' AND 'the concept of free will' BOTH exist IN and alongside WITH 'materialism'.

But, then again, I DO LOOK AT and SEE a LOT of 'things' VERY DIFFERENTLY than 'you', human beings.

Are you talking about compatibilism?

Of course, you need to be free in order to overcome doubt and make a decision but that is another topic.

But what CAUSED 'you' to BE FREE?

Freedom is a property of action.

[Sculptor]

Materialism is a deterministic viewpoint. Determinism is a viewpoint that for each state X at time t there exists a unique state X at time t+1. In another word, X(t+1)=L(X(t)) where L is a function and tells us how state X(t) evolves to X(t+1).

There exist two states that both are valid and can be reached when we have doubt. This means that system is in the state of X at time t but there are two feasible states available for the system at time t+1, let's call them, Y and Z.

Now here is the dilemma: We can without a doubt say that doubt is real which means that for each state X at time t, there are two states at time t+1 when we have doubt. On the other hand, we think that determinism is true which means that for each state X at time t, only one state exists at time t+1. So how do you resolve this dilemma?

THe dilemma, if there is one, is in your over simplification.

Let's look at a simple causal event.
I throw a switch and the light comes on.
You seem to be claiming that materialism has to insist that the movement of the switch caused by my hand is the explanation of the event in materialist terms.
But this is so obviously not true.
How do you explain the situation if I throw the switch and nothing happens? I am sure you have done this yourself at some point in your life. Does this not indicate that the event is not just caused by your finger but by an infinite number of other things?

How about the spring in the switch holding potential energy; the quality of electrons to travel down copper wires; the quality of tungsten to glow when current passes through it; the generation of electricity in the sub-station, power plant, the gas being burned to run the turbines; why you want the light on - the sun dipping down over the horizon, the gook you want to continue reading being written by a good author; the fact that he had a supportive wife that meant he finished the book and a great publisher who saw his potential ; the fact the the publisher went to a great school that fostered personal development; the fact the Thomas Caxton began the English book publishing craze in his time, the fact that the earth cooled down enough for life to begin in the oceans.... Ad infiniten....
All of these are causes that led to the moment where the light came on, at that exact moment in the way it did.

[Iwannaplato]

My first question is how you could have an undecided state in a deterministic universe.

Well, I answered that one. We experience being unsure of something. We have that quale. That quale happens when we don't find the answer immediately

........................................in our conscious minds

We weight things (using already present values and desires and/or logic and reasoning with precisely our abilities and habits. And the determined decision/conclusion happens. If we imagine consequences, for example, our minds produce a film out of our knowledge, guesses, memories, perhaps for two options. Then we choose the one we were always going to choose.

My second question is how a system in an undecided state could turn into a determined state instead of halting forever.

Because we have desires, needs, impatience and other processes that lead us to choose. IOW causes that lead to one action conclusion or even deciding not to keep thinking about it without coming to a conclusion, again based on our desires, needs, schedule, personalities etc. Just because a process takes time and has a not able to decide (actually 'not finished deciding') quale doesn't mean it's somehow frozen. It's just unfolding longer than in other decisions.

You never say here that both options (if there are two) are precisely as attractive as each other. But that's never the case, but it is telling that you don't even bother to say it. Nor do you say 'It must be perfectly balanced between two or more options or we would react immediately. No, we only need to experience some conflict in values, information, goals whatever. Some, not some perfect mathematical equality from which no one could extricate themselves. In a brain with 86 billion neurons and 40 - 130 billion glial cells (which we now know are involved in cognition etc), we have analogue influences and impulses from the endocrinal system. We have very large nerve batches which affect brain function and cognition in the heart area and the gut area.

The chances of a mathematically perfect balance is close enough to zero to call it zero. Especially given that other needs and desires are always pushing on us to make decisions and leave that particular focus. And our heartbeat and breathing and any outside stimuli are also buffeting the senses and cognition. IOW even if you had the mathematically perfect equilibrium that somehow magically freezes a brain, there are constant imbalances being thrown into the mix, even in a sensory deprivation tank, and the rest of the time from both inside us and outside us. Long focus is also tiring. And so on. We don't get stuck in loops. All sorts of things pull us out, even if we can't decide and don't need to.

Please note that we are discussing materialism in which there is no concept of free will.

Peachy. I only mention free will to make it clear that I am assuming determinism for the sake of my answer.

Of course, you need to be free in order to overcome doubt and make a decision but that is another topic.

Nah. You are a flow and that flow is going to go somewhere. There is no possible pure stasis in a living organism. They flow. They will do things or die.

Your acting like not doing anything is the default. It's not. We are in motion, cognitively, physically and physiologically. Someone in a coma might not make a decision, but then
they aren't doubting either.

Another way to put this whole thing is
'

'indecision' is merely a very, very complicated, nuanced set of dominoes falling.

If a decision is easy, then the falling domino pattern is easy and quick. If it is complicated and networked and convoluted we experience the quale of indecision. It's just a quale. The dominos fall in either case, inexorablly forward in time.

Or to come at it from a third angle: tennis.
A long point between Federer and Nadal.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/Fw50rXqoFt8
The point is undecided for a long time. Undecided for a long time. The outcome is in doubt.
But....things are happening, small changes, finally an advantage for one side, an utterly determined advantage emerges from what seemed an even point. But points can't be even. They will fall one way or another.

[bahman]

Materialism is a deterministic viewpoint. Determinism is a viewpoint that for each state X at time t there exists a unique state X at time t+1. In another word, X(t+1)=L(X(t)) where L is a function and tells us how state X(t) evolves to X(t+1).

There exist two states that both are valid and can be reached when we have doubt. This means that system is in the state of X at time t but there are two feasible states available for the system at time t+1, let's call them, Y and Z.

Now here is the dilemma: We can without a doubt say that doubt is real which means that for each state X at time t, there are two states at time t+1 when we have doubt. On the other hand, we think that determinism is true which means that for each state X at time t, only one state exists at time t+1. So how do you resolve this dilemma?

THe dilemma, if there is one, is in your over simplification.

Let's look at a simple causal event.
I throw a switch and the light comes on.
You seem to be claiming that materialism has to insist that the movement of the switch caused by my hand is the explanation of the event in materialist terms.
But this is so obviously not true.
How do you explain the situation if I throw the switch and nothing happens? I am sure you have done this yourself at some point in your life. Does this not indicate that the event is not just caused by your finger but by an infinite number of other things?

How about the spring in the switch holding potential energy; the quality of electrons to travel down copper wires; the quality of tungsten to glow when current passes through it; the generation of electricity in the sub-station, power plant, the gas being burned to run the turbines; why you want the light on - the sun dipping down over the horizon, the gook you want to continue reading being written by a good author; the fact that he had a supportive wife that meant he finished the book and a great publisher who saw his potential ; the fact the the publisher went to a great school that fostered personal development; the fact the Thomas Caxton began the English book publishing craze in his time, the fact that the earth cooled down enough for life to begin in the oceans.... Ad infiniten....
All of these are causes that led to the moment where the light came on, at that exact moment in the way it did.

Yes, all these causes are important but they belong to a very long past. Determinism as I formulated deals with an immediate future state that is a unique function of the current state.

[Sculptor]

Materialism is a deterministic viewpoint. Determinism is a viewpoint that for each state X at time t there exists a unique state X at time t+1. In another word, X(t+1)=L(X(t)) where L is a function and tells us how state X(t) evolves to X(t+1).

There exist two states that both are valid and can be reached when we have doubt. This means that system is in the state of X at time t but there are two feasible states available for the system at time t+1, let's call them, Y and Z.

Now here is the dilemma: We can without a doubt say that doubt is real which means that for each state X at time t, there are two states at time t+1 when we have doubt. On the other hand, we think that determinism is true which means that for each state X at time t, only one state exists at time t+1. So how do you resolve this dilemma?

THe dilemma, if there is one, is in your over simplification.

Let's look at a simple causal event.
I throw a switch and the light comes on.
You seem to be claiming that materialism has to insist that the movement of the switch caused by my hand is the explanation of the event in materialist terms.
But this is so obviously not true.
How do you explain the situation if I throw the switch and nothing happens? I am sure you have done this yourself at some point in your life. Does this not indicate that the event is not just caused by your finger but by an infinite number of other things?

How about the spring in the switch holding potential energy; the quality of electrons to travel down copper wires; the quality of tungsten to glow when current passes through it; the generation of electricity in the sub-station, power plant, the gas being burned to run the turbines; why you want the light on - the sun dipping down over the horizon, the gook you want to continue reading being written by a good author; the fact that he had a supportive wife that meant he finished the book and a great publisher who saw his potential ; the fact the the publisher went to a great school that fostered personal development; the fact the Thomas Caxton began the English book publishing craze in his time, the fact that the earth cooled down enough for life to begin in the oceans.... Ad infiniten....
All of these are causes that led to the moment where the light came on, at that exact moment in the way it did.

Yes, all these causes are important but they belong to a very long past. Determinism as I formulated deals with an immediate future state that is a unique function of the current state.

No it is not. You are just wrong.

These are not just long term, they are also immediate.
And no determinism is NOT formulated as immediate causes.

Not only do you mischaracterize what I say, you also mischaracterise, what determinism is. Obviously you think it is easier to criticise after you caricature the idea first. This is called building a straw man.

[Age]

My first question is how you could have an undecided state in a deterministic universe.

VERY EASILY.

Tell me how?

When 'you' have or are in doubt then that is how undecidedness exists in and with this One and ONLY determined Universe. But, like ALL things here, to understand 'this' FULLY 'you' need to learn and understand the definitions of words being used, FIRST.

My second question is how a system in an undecided state could turn into a determined state instead of halting forever.

The ONLY 'system', which I am aware of, that can be in a so-called 'undecided state' are animals, and animals do NOT, again as far as I am aware, turn out of a 'determined state'. Although 'doubt' or 'undecidedness' can exist VERY EASILY, and VERY OBVIOUSLY, with animal bodies.

Tell me how?

Have 'you' ever had or been in doubt and/or ever been undecided?

If yes, then that is how.

But if no, then are you SURE?

Please note that we are discussing materialism in which there is no concept of free will.

BUT 'free will' AND 'the concept of free will' BOTH exist IN and alongside WITH 'materialism'.

But, then again, I DO LOOK AT and SEE a LOT of 'things' VERY DIFFERENTLY than 'you', human beings.

Are you talking about compatibilism?

No, not really, but then this would, OBVIOUSLY, all depend on what you are referring to, EXACTLY.

Of course, you need to be free in order to overcome doubt and make a decision but that is another topic.

But what CAUSED 'you' to BE FREE?

Freedom is a property of action.

Here we have ANOTHER example of just how often the peoples, in the days when this was being written, would ASSUME some 'thing', instead of just REMAINING OPEN, which would then ultimately CLOSE them OFF from just SEEING, and just ANSWERING, the ACTUAL QUESTION POSED and ASKED to them.