Christianity

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Dubious
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Re: Christianity

Post by Dubious »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Mar 07, 2023 12:45 am
And this is why there's an alarming correspondence between Atheist regimes and attrocities...one far outscaling the viciousness of all false religious creeds combined, by orders of magnitude. So strong is the correlation between Atheism and such things, that it really calls for some sort of explanation as to how Atheism connects to viciousness. Atheist regimes killed 140 million in the last century alone.
The world’s religions have rules and holy books that tell their followers what’s wrong or right and how to behave. Thus, it is reasonable to hold a religion accountable for the message that it preaches. There are no holy atheist scriptures, no atheist pope and no atheist rituals, tenets, creeds, code or authority. Atheism cannot be held accountable for the activities of atheists in the same way that religion can be judged by its doctrine because atheism has no doctrines.

It’s true that the tyrannical communist regimes of Mao and Stalin were opposed to religion, with religious belief discouraged and punished under their rule. This had less to do with atheism and more to do with the threat of religion as competition with their own tyrannical plans. Totalitarian regimes are built on dogma and fear, not freedom of speech and inquiry. In this way, they greatly resemble religion.


Navabi, Armin. Why There Is No God.
promethean75
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Re: Christianity

Post by promethean75 »

"Atheist regimes killed 140 million in the last century alone."

I know right?

The centuries-old holy wars have only killed like what... a few thousand.
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: Christianity

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

BigMike wrote: Mon Mar 06, 2023 10:23 pm [Overall, Jacobi's post comes across as pretentious and unfocused. While it's possible that he has some interesting ideas to share, he does a poor job of presenting them in a clear and compelling way.
Given your stated objectives and orientation no point that I could make, with greater focus in detail, would be acceptable to you. Because your focus is in denial. Denial of any perspective that is not the one you are committed to.

And any attempt — any attempt — to express or to try to express ideas or perspectives that you object a priori, would surely receive the label of pretentiousness.

You interpret that effort as ‘being talked down to’. Which in a certain sense is true. Because you (seem to) operate on a quite basic level.

Oddly, so does Immanuel. It’s as though the blind speak to the dead.

Unfocused you say? Not quite. Abbreviated is more like it.

Just as it is impossible — quite literally impossible! — to get through to Immanuel, similarly it often feels as difficult to get through to (pardon) ‘people like you’. Strangely you are halves of the same orange.

I am of course speaking in very general terms as is necessary at times.
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: Christianity

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

attofishpi wrote: Mon Mar 06, 2023 10:39 pm Care to provide a Gospel-inspired definition of God?
Sure. A specific personality, seemingly outside of this world, who determines destiny, who intervenes in history, who has determined specific ends (cataclysm, apocalypse) and will ‘return’ one day to set up divine administrative offices — I assume in Jerusalem.

Your faith, Atto, does not depend on any text, nor the Buy-Bull as you call it. Your faith is totally idiosyncratic. It has no reference points, except in yourself and your experience.
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: Christianity

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

BigMike wrote: Mon Mar 06, 2023 10:53 pm But hey, at least he's got a sense of humor, right? I mean, he's basically saying that we're all just a bunch of power-hungry maniacs. Thanks for the uplifting message, Nietzsche. I'll be sure to keep that in mind next time I'm feeling down.
Through misreading, you did not read. He described, quite perceptibly, quite accurately, the planet-sphere as a closed system.

Sure, dramatic rhetoric but quite sound.
Is he trying to write a physics textbook or something?
You’re on to something. He is explaining a purely physical (physics bound) system but with poetic lingo.

And that is the system in which we arise out of. We are subsumed in it. And just as all natural being are power-seekers and are power-hungry, so the same impetus exists in us.

A litle critical self-analysis is in order BigMike.
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: Christianity

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

Lacewing wrote: Mon Mar 06, 2023 11:58 pm The organization and qualities of life do not indicate a particular conclusion by human terms.
That was not the case with Oriental (Vedic) philosophy, and certainly not in early Occidental philosphy.

An ordered Kosmos predicated Order on all levels, right down to the roots.

True, we now live in a fragmented, falling apart understanding of the world (no unified view as far as I can tell) but that was not always the case and may not remain the case.
Dubious
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Re: Christianity

Post by Dubious »

Nietzsche’s “Dionysian world”
the will to power and the eternal recurrence
[from the notebooks, 1885]

And do you know what “the world” is to me? Shall I show it to you in my mirror?
This world: a monster of energy, without beginning, without end, a firm, iron magnitude
of force that does not grow bigger or smaller, that does not expend itself but only
transforms itself; as a whole, of unalterable size, a household without expenses or losses,
but likewise without increase or income; enclosed by “nothingness” as by a boundary; not
something blurry or wasted, not something endlessly extended, but set in a definite space
as a definite force, and not a space that might be “empty” here or there, but rather as force
throughout, as a play of forces and waves of forces, at the same time one and many,
increasing here and at the same time decreasing there; a sea of forces flowing and rushing
together, eternally changing, eternally flooding back, with tremendous years of recurrence,
with an ebb and a flood of its forms; out of the simplest forms striving toward the most
complex, out of the stillest, most rigid, coldest forms toward the hottest, most turbulent,
most self-contradictory, and then again returning home to the simple out of this
abundance, out of the play of contradictions back to the joy of concord, still affirming itself
in this uniformity of its courses and its years, blessing itself as that which must return
eternally, as a becoming that knows no satiety, no disgust, no weariness: this, my Dionysian
world of the eternally self-creating, the eternally self-destroying, this mystery world of the
twofold voluptuous delight, my “beyond good and evil,” without goal, unless the joy of
the circle is itself a goal; without will, unless a ring feels good will toward itself—do you
want a name for this world? A solution for all its riddles? A light for you, too, you best-
concealed, strongest, most intrepid, most midnightly men?—This world is the will to
power—and nothing besides! And you yourselves are also this will to power—and nothing
besides! (The Will to Power §1067


One of the most sublime prose hymns of raw nature ever written proclaiming an endless affluence in its creativity, mystery, and contradictions which no god ever imagined is equal to.
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: Christianity

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

Oddly, so does Immanuel. It’s as though the blind speak to the dead.
I meant to write ‘deaf’!
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: Christianity

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

Dubious wrote: Tue Mar 07, 2023 3:44 am One of the most sublime prose hymns of raw nature ever written proclaiming an endless affluence in its creativity, mystery, and contradictions which no god ever imagined is equal to.
Each time I read it, it grows on me.

If we are to define a ‘divine creator’ who created that — we end up defining a very very different divinity.

To define, say, a benign deity or a god removed from that description, is to give credence to an absurd fantasy.

Perhaps if ‘god’ is to be defined or proposed, it can only be defined through internal referents. That is what god seems to be for most: a self-reflective conversation.
promethean75
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Re: Christianity

Post by promethean75 »

yeah u can only really ascribe a causa sui to a principle, not a thing, becuz if your thing is governed, it is by some principle and capacity that it governs, itself even... not just creation and the world. you'd find a god's conatus, his willpower.

being that as it may, it wouldn't be incidental that the world, too, might be governed by a will to power. not mechanistically, not as/in the things that exist in space time, but in the same principled stimulus to expand and create, to extend a force causally, to hold one's position as it were. the very feature that determines the resilient design of god's creation and god himself (or herself if you're wiccan i think) is the same kind of self-determing willpower.

we're looking at the principles by which a thing operates here man, and your homeboy Spinoza in identifying god with nature pretty much drew an equivalence between the dynamic of evolution and the perfectly ordered cosmos.

a nonmechanistic view would show only a basic dynamic in both examples. god's will to exist and create and organize is the same throughout the universe in anything extended in space. there are no gods or waves or animals or lightening bolts or courts or drag races or wars or grocery stores. those things will be unheard of in 948,9330,826,777,385,999 years.

and whatever be in that future, will be just another manifestation of zee veel to powar

so what REALLY exists? do u siriusly believe this yuge fuckin universe wuz created by an intelligent human like super being just for the purpose of creating some people who will sit beside him for eternity in heaven?

c'mon man stop playin.

The world is the will to power and nothing besides - William Burke
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attofishpi
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Re: Christianity

Post by attofishpi »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: Tue Mar 07, 2023 3:19 am
attofishpi wrote: Mon Mar 06, 2023 10:39 pm Care to provide a Gospel-inspired definition of God?
Sure. A specific personality, seemingly outside of this world, who determines destiny, who intervenes in history, who has determined specific ends (cataclysm, apocalypse) and will ‘return’ one day to set up divine administrative offices — I assume in Jerusalem.
None of that nonsense was in any Gospel I have read. But sure, from experience God has intervened in at least my destiny. (affected my decisions)

Alexis Jacobi wrote: Tue Mar 07, 2023 3:19 amYour faith, Atto, does not depend on any text, nor the Buy-Bull as you call it. Your faith is totally idiosyncratic. It has no reference points, except in yourself and your experience.
It does have reference points where Christ is involved.

When I read the first lines of Genesis, it seems apparent that IF there is a GOD, then it wants us to not accept what is written but to question the bible...don't just accept bull, and pay for it.

So.

RE Christ and the wrath of God, the tests I have been put through...ultimately I still take the knee to that MAN and what Christ did to inspire faith. (especially where love is concerned).
Dubious
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Re: Christianity

Post by Dubious »

Dubious wrote: Tue Mar 07, 2023 3:44 amOne of the most sublime prose hymns of raw nature ever written proclaiming an endless affluence in its creativity, mystery, and contradictions which no god ever imagined is equal to.
Alexis Jacobi wrote: Tue Mar 07, 2023 4:03 amEach time I read it, it grows on me.
It's a highlight of poetic realism in the form of a supremely masterful prose poem. All the mentions of fields and forces is precisely what much of the science in the 20th century was all about. Words can be as impressive and penetrating as music itself by those who know how to write, express and understand it.
Alexis Jacobi wrote: Tue Mar 07, 2023 4:03 amIf we are to define a ‘divine creator’ who created that — we end up defining a very very different divinity.
Very true, and in that process a reality currently far beyond anyone's imagination. It's how we metabolize time - being the currency of life - that will determine where we'll end up.
Alexis Jacobi wrote: Tue Mar 07, 2023 4:03 amTo define, say, a benign deity or a god removed from that description, is to give credence to an absurd fantasy.
Also very true! Unfortunately there are still too many remnants acutely infected with the operational memes of ancient times still alive who can't tell the difference 2000 years later.
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attofishpi
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Re: Christianity

Post by attofishpi »

Dubious wrote: Tue Mar 07, 2023 7:03 am
Alexis Jacobi wrote: Tue Mar 07, 2023 4:03 amTo define, say, a benign deity or a god removed from that description, is to give credence to an absurd fantasy.
Also very true! Unfortunately there are still too many remnants acutely infected with the operational memes of ancient times still alive who can't tell the difference 2000 years later.
Well, it truly resonated with me and my experience of God. When IC pointed out it was Nietsche I was surprised.
Dubious
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Re: Christianity

Post by Dubious »

promethean75 wrote: Tue Mar 07, 2023 4:43 am
The world is the will to power and nothing besides - William Burke
Nope! William Burke didn't have enough time to think about it before he was forced to enter the domain of nothing besides.
Dubious
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Re: Christianity

Post by Dubious »

attofishpi wrote: Tue Mar 07, 2023 7:10 am
Dubious wrote: Tue Mar 07, 2023 7:03 am
Alexis Jacobi wrote: Tue Mar 07, 2023 4:03 amTo define, say, a benign deity or a god removed from that description, is to give credence to an absurd fantasy.
Also very true! Unfortunately there are still too many remnants acutely infected with the operational memes of ancient times still alive who can't tell the difference 2000 years later.
Well, it truly resonated with me and my experience of God. When IC pointed out it was Nietsche I was surprised.
It's extremely unlikely that it was IC who pointed it out who regards Nietzsche, quote, as a weasel of no merit or influence. It was AJ who quoted it to which I replied. If IC did some time prior, I'd like to know where it is.
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