Let me ask you this. The earth is moving through space. The earth is sustaining all billiard balls in motion - does that not mean that everything enjoys both vertical and horizontal causation?bahman wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 6:07 pmThink of billiard balls. One billiard ball can move another one. This is horizontal causation. Something might sustain the billiard ball in existence. This is vertical causation, what Catholics believe is the vertical causation in which God sustains everything in existence.
Could something whose existence depends on something else be free?
Re: Could something whose existence depends on something else be free?
Re: Could something whose existence depends on something else be free?
No, by vertical causation I mean that something sustains, causes, or creates another thing. They believe that God constantly sustains/causes/creates things. Things then move each other which this is horizontal causation. In your example, Earth moves billiard balls so this is horizontal causation.Sculptor wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 6:18 pmLet me ask you this. The earth is moving through space. The earth is sustaining all billiard balls in motion - does that not mean that everything enjoys both vertical and horizontal causation?bahman wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 6:07 pmThink of billiard balls. One billiard ball can move another one. This is horizontal causation. Something might sustain the billiard ball in existence. This is vertical causation, what Catholics believe is the vertical causation in which God sustains everything in existence.
Re: Could something whose existence depends on something else be free?
And the term or phrase, 'infinite regress', when used in a way that ACTUALLY WORKS is NOT an issue NOR problem AT ALL here.
We have ALREADY gone through this. AGAIN 'your' OWN personal definitions of words, terms, or phrases here are definitions do NOT WORK.
Re: Could something whose existence depends on something else be free?
Talk about being ABSOLUTELY BLINDED and/or DELUDED by one's OWN ALREADY GAINED and OBTAINED BELIEF/S.bahman wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 4:39 pmWhat? How is that related to what I said?
It means that I can choose a thing I don't want to choose.Sculptor wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 3:56 pmThat is a contradiction.
By free I mean that one option can be chosen disregarding preference for example.
You say:
one option can be chosen disregarding preference for example.
which means the same as.
one can prefer an option disregarding choice for example.
or
I can chose a thing I did not want to chose.
It's not very helpful, nor is it any kind of definition.
Re: Could something whose existence depends on something else be free?
And even then you are NOT doing ANY thing AGAINST a so-called 'your will'.Sculptor wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 5:24 pmIN a world where things have ending, regresses cannot be infinite.It means that I can choose a thing I don't want to choose.Sculptor wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 3:56 pm
That is a contradiction.
You say:
one option can be chosen disregarding preference for example.
which means the same as.
one can prefer an option disregarding choice for example.
or
I can chose a thing I did not want to chose.
It's not very helpful, nor is it any kind of definition.
But if you chose it, you have to have wanted to.
You can never really do something against your will unless someone is threatening you.
Re: Could something whose existence depends on something else be free?
What do you propose is the ACTUAL difference here?
Will you GIVE us AN EXAMPLE now this time?
I have asked you BEFORE, but you keep REFUSING to provide ANY EXAMPLE AT ALL for this CLAIM of yours here.
Re: Could something whose existence depends on something else be free?
ONCE AGAIN "bahman" the more you 'try to' EXPLAIN, CLARIFY, or ELABORATE on what you have previously stated and claimed in your OWN threads the more you end up speaking FAR MORE CONFUSINGLY.bahman wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 12:25 pmYou don't understand the difference between two types of causation, vertical when something's existence depends on something else, and horizontal when something moves something else.
LOL
Will you provide ANY example?
Re: Could something whose existence depends on something else be free?
But you are NOT providing ANY argument 'against' NOR 'for' absolutely ANY thing here.bahman wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 3:42 pmWell, Catholics believe that the universe, including your body and soul, is sustained by God. They also believe that you are free. Here, I am providing an argument against their belief, God sustains you and you are free.
All you are REALLY DOING here is just saying 'things', which you hope back up and support what you ALREADY BELIEVE is true.
But which you are absolutely FAILING at doing, ACTUALLY.
Re: Could something whose existence depends on something else be free?
ONCE AGAIN you are just speaking CONFUSINGLY.bahman wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 6:07 pmThink of billiard balls. One billiard ball can move another one. This is horizontal causation. Something might sustain the billiard ball in existence. This is vertical causation, what Catholics believe is the vertical causation in which God sustains everything in existence.
The 'things' that you call 'sustain the billiard ball in existence' ALSO 'moved' that billiard ball, so what you call 'vertical causation' is ALSO what you call 'horizontal causation'.
Your introduction of the terms 'vertical and horizontal causation' are just ATTEMPTS at saying just about absolutely ANY thing in an EFFORT to 'try to' back up and support what you ALREADY BELIEVE is true, but which ACTUALLY can NEVER be backed up and supported because 'it' is NOT ACTUALLY true AT ALL.
Re: Could something whose existence depends on something else be free?
WHEN will you LEARN that WHEN, and IF, you EVER provide ACTUAL EXAMPLES, THEN this WILL HELP you?bahman wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 6:49 pmNo, by vertical causation I mean that something sustains, causes, or creates another thing.Sculptor wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 6:18 pmLet me ask you this. The earth is moving through space. The earth is sustaining all billiard balls in motion - does that not mean that everything enjoys both vertical and horizontal causation?bahman wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 6:07 pm
Think of billiard balls. One billiard ball can move another one. This is horizontal causation. Something might sustain the billiard ball in existence. This is vertical causation, what Catholics believe is the vertical causation in which God sustains everything in existence.
Or, do you NOT provide ANY ACTUAL EXAMPLES BECAUSE you can NOT find ANY? Considering the Fact that NONE ACTUALLY REALLY EXIST it is NOT surprising AT ALL that you do NOT provide ANY AT ALL.
What does it matter what SOME people BELIEVE is true here?
'you', "bahman", OBVIOUSLY BELIEVE SOME 'things' are true here, which OBVIOUSLY they are NOT. But, AGAIN, what does it matter what 'you', or SOME people, BELIEVE is true here?
BUT, OBVIOUSLY, earth ALSO 'sustains' those 'moving' billiard balls.
Re: Could something whose existence depends on something else be free?
You are contradicting yourself.bahman wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 6:49 pmNo, by vertical causation I mean that something sustains, causes, or creates another thing. They believe that God constantly sustains/causes/creates things. Things then move each other which this is horizontal causation. In your example, Earth moves billiard balls so this is horizontal causation.Sculptor wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 6:18 pmLet me ask you this. The earth is moving through space. The earth is sustaining all billiard balls in motion - does that not mean that everything enjoys both vertical and horizontal causation?bahman wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 6:07 pm
Think of billiard balls. One billiard ball can move another one. This is horizontal causation. Something might sustain the billiard ball in existence. This is vertical causation, what Catholics believe is the vertical causation in which God sustains everything in existence.
Re: Could something whose existence depends on something else be free?
It means that no matter how long you wait you cannot reach it.
Of course not. You need a way to go back in time. But the question is whether someone who lived in 2,000,000 BC can reach now.
Re: Could something whose existence depends on something else be free?
No, you don't understand the basics.Sculptor wrote: ↑Sat Feb 04, 2023 12:36 amYou are contradicting yourself.bahman wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 6:49 pmNo, by vertical causation I mean that something sustains, causes, or creates another thing. They believe that God constantly sustains/causes/creates things. Things then move each other which this is horizontal causation. In your example, Earth moves billiard balls so this is horizontal causation.
Re: Could something whose existence depends on something else be free?
You explained the basics but were not sharp enough to see how you were in contradiction and failed to relate it to the topic.bahman wrote: ↑Sat Feb 04, 2023 11:55 amNo, you don't understand the basics.Sculptor wrote: ↑Sat Feb 04, 2023 12:36 amYou are contradicting yourself.bahman wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 6:49 pm
No, by vertical causation I mean that something sustains, causes, or creates another thing. They believe that God constantly sustains/causes/creates things. Things then move each other which this is horizontal causation. In your example, Earth moves billiard balls so this is horizontal causation.