INVESTIGATING FREE WILL AND DETERMINISM

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attofishpi
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Re: INVESTIGATING FREE WILL AND DETERMINISM

Post by attofishpi »

Sculptor wrote: Sun Jan 01, 2023 1:51 am
attofishpi wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 11:16 pm
Sculptor wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 11:57 am
This is a different issue.
DO you think that randomness is what is meant be free will?
No you don't appear to be comprehending what I am stating in relation to quanutm indeterminacy which scrubs any notion that consciousness IS determined.
If you think yo understand QM, then you don't understand QM.
I think that is something physicist Sean Carroll stated (ergo nobody understands QM)

Sculptor wrote: Sun Jan 01, 2023 1:51 am
attofishpi wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 11:16 pm My 'hard determinism' statement I made in reference to your consideration that the two Boonys would be in a 'mirrored' state for the rest of time *where all things at poiint of instantiation were equal, including no differing causal effect from being in slightly different positions in spacetime - that they would be in a precisely same state in every way for ad infinitum.

Since consciousness is operating at the quantum level, and as Penrose points out, is not computable thus not able to be determined in any mathematical way, this throws any idea that the two Boonys would be 'mirrored' for any period of time out of the window!

Years ago I was considering developing AI, and without researching it I came to the idea of how I would 'invoke continual thinking' and I considered mimicking 'emotions' using some sort of probability field between 0 and 360 - where various quadrants or less would cause the AI to have an 'emotion' and this in turn would trigger the way it feels for the days investigation - for example if it was 'happy' it would research things that make 'it' (humans) happy...etc..and it then follows if I asked it how if was feeling it would respond it was happy, and that these 'things' make it happy...bla bla

The reason I mention that is that since our emotions are the key driving force to most of our decisions in life, our will, and the fact that emotions are a component of consciousness - and is not computable, and not able to me precisely determined in a similar way as projected by quantum indetiminacy that is at play throughout the matter of our brains. It seems that the fluctuations within the matter of our brains - brain waves - are this continual 'loop' similar to what I was considering mimicking in a rather crude fashion 0-360 where our brain is in a constant state of flux, but our will of thought manipulates this flux to come to decisions.
You have no answered the question
You are the one insisting on using the word 'random'. I just went with that for your comprehension in my previous statements.

I have answered the question perhaps you just need to switch your use of random with what is actually happening - quantum indeterminacy, maybe that will help.
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Sculptor
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Re: INVESTIGATING FREE WILL AND DETERMINISM

Post by Sculptor »

attofishpi wrote: Sun Jan 01, 2023 2:01 am
Sculptor wrote: Sun Jan 01, 2023 1:51 am
attofishpi wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 11:16 pm

No you don't appear to be comprehending what I am stating in relation to quanutm indeterminacy which scrubs any notion that consciousness IS determined.
If you think yo understand QM, then you don't understand QM.
I think that is something physicist Sean Carroll stated (ergo nobody understands QM)

Sculptor wrote: Sun Jan 01, 2023 1:51 am
attofishpi wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 11:16 pm My 'hard determinism' statement I made in reference to your consideration that the two Boonys would be in a 'mirrored' state for the rest of time *where all things at poiint of instantiation were equal, including no differing causal effect from being in slightly different positions in spacetime - that they would be in a precisely same state in every way for ad infinitum.

Since consciousness is operating at the quantum level, and as Penrose points out, is not computable thus not able to be determined in any mathematical way, this throws any idea that the two Boonys would be 'mirrored' for any period of time out of the window!

Years ago I was considering developing AI, and without researching it I came to the idea of how I would 'invoke continual thinking' and I considered mimicking 'emotions' using some sort of probability field between 0 and 360 - where various quadrants or less would cause the AI to have an 'emotion' and this in turn would trigger the way it feels for the days investigation - for example if it was 'happy' it would research things that make 'it' (humans) happy...etc..and it then follows if I asked it how if was feeling it would respond it was happy, and that these 'things' make it happy...bla bla

The reason I mention that is that since our emotions are the key driving force to most of our decisions in life, our will, and the fact that emotions are a component of consciousness - and is not computable, and not able to me precisely determined in a similar way as projected by quantum indetiminacy that is at play throughout the matter of our brains. It seems that the fluctuations within the matter of our brains - brain waves - are this continual 'loop' similar to what I was considering mimicking in a rather crude fashion 0-360 where our brain is in a constant state of flux, but our will of thought manipulates this flux to come to decisions.
You have no answered the question
You are the one insisting on using the word 'random'. I just went with that for your comprehension in my previous statements.

I have answered the question perhaps you just need to switch your use of random with what is actually happening - quantum indeterminacy, maybe that will help.
If you think you are making free decisions and it does not seem to matter what are the conditions upon which those decisions are made at anyone point in time, they what value are such capricious decisions?
Decisions are either determined by you, or random. There is nothing in between.
Or put another way - in a deterministic world you are making decisions; otherwise they are partly random- but that is not what people are claiming for free will.
That's why I am a compatibilist.
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Re: INVESTIGATING FREE WILL AND DETERMINISM

Post by attofishpi »

Sculptor wrote: Sun Jan 01, 2023 2:12 am
attofishpi wrote: Sun Jan 01, 2023 2:01 am
Sculptor wrote: Sun Jan 01, 2023 1:51 am
If you think yo understand QM, then you don't understand QM.
I think that is something physicist Sean Carroll stated (ergo nobody understands QM)

Sculptor wrote: Sun Jan 01, 2023 1:51 am
You have no answered the question
You are the one insisting on using the word 'random'. I just went with that for your comprehension in my previous statements.

I have answered the question perhaps you just need to switch your use of random with what is actually happening - quantum indeterminacy, maybe that will help.
If you think you are making free decisions and it does not seem to matter what are the conditions upon which those decisions are made at anyone point in time, they what value are such capricious decisions?
Decisions are either determined by you, or random. There is nothing in between.
Decisions are not random, even if they are based upon things within a deterministic reality that appear random.

Sculptor wrote: Sun Jan 01, 2023 2:12 amOr put another way - in a deterministic world you are making decisions; otherwise they are partly random- but that is not what people are claiming for free will.
That's why I am a compatibilist.
Well. I guess that makes at least two of us! Happy NY! :D
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