iambiguous wrote: ↑Wed Dec 07, 2022 3:33 pm
Does God Exist?
William Lane Craig says there are good reasons for thinking that He does.
Why did the universe come into being? What brought the universe into existence? There must have been a transcendent cause which brought the universe into being – a cause outside the universe itself.
Again, let's think about this. Here is the author...just like the rest of us. An infinitesimally tiny speck of existence so utterly, utterly minute in the simply immense vastness of all there is...asserting that the universe
must have a transcendent cause.
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Dec 07, 2022 4:50 pmIt's not arbitrary, on his part: it's rationally inescapable.
You cannot speak of the "immense vastness of all that IS," without already assuming the premise that something "IS," i.e. something exists. But if that's what you're assuming, then you aren't, by definition, talking about the origins of the universe at all, but of the question, "What else happens, as soon as the universe exists?"
Right. And all Craig does here is to "think up" up God as one possible explanation for existence. As though deducing Him into existence need be as far as one goes in order to prove that He must exist.
That, in my view, is nothing short of preposterous. He provides us with absolutely no hard evidence to demonstrate it.
Then IC deduces the Christian God into existence based on Craig's deductions about the theoretical existence of a God, the God. And his own ludicrous "proof" that the Christian God must exist because it says so in the Christian Bible.
Again, if others here wish to take him seriously, be my guest. To me, aside from being entertained in exposing him, he is an object lesson I can use to note for others the "comforting and consoling" embodiment of the "psychology of objectivism".
Unless, of course, clinically, he does have an actual "condition". And thus it is all basically "beyond his control". Or, perhaps, we do live in a wholly determined universe, and it is beyond the control of all of us.
Or, here, Immanual Can's "proof" that the Christian God must exist because it says so in the Bible and the Bible must be true because it is the Word of God. Well, and the videos, of course.
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Dec 07, 2022 4:50 pmDid you watch any? They're not just "videos." Each one presents an argument.
As I noted above [way back] let him note the most persuasive argument in any of the videos that might be an incentive for me to watch it. Actual hard evidence that the Christian God does in fact reside in Heaven. Otherwise, there are a zillion YouTube videos
arguing in a "world of words" that one or another God does exist.
We can summarize this argument thus far as follows:
1. The universe began to exist.
2. If the universe began to exist, then the universe has a transcendent cause.
3. Therefore, the universe has a transcendent cause.
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Dec 07, 2022 4:50 pmYou'd better say what you mean by "transcendent," if this is going to hold as a fair representation of the argument. It's evident from the earlier, that you aren't sure.
Huh?
I didn't make that point, Craig did. Again, an
argument...a deduction...a "thought up" conclusion based on his own set of assumptions regarding the existence of existence itself.
What I noted above was this:
And thus philosophically God is deduced into existence. Immanuel Can merely takes this "logic" further by deducing the Christian God into existence. In other words, not your God if you are not a Christian.
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Dec 07, 2022 4:50 pm If you want to, you can argue that the Original Cause, the "Thing" that created the universe, or the "Thing" that accounts for the fact that the universe now exists, was not personal, not conscious, not intelligent, not all-powerful, and thus not like God...but that's an argument you'd have to make in such a way as to show it is even possibly cogent.
Go ahead, if you can. I'd be interested in seeing it.
No, I don't want to "argue" with the likes of him. Why? Because I have no respect at all for his intelligence. Let others here that do carry on in that futile endeavor. Instead, I am interested in exploring the evidence, the proof, the empirical confirmation from the God World folks here that can be noted in regard to the factors that I myself am most interested in pursuing:
1] a demonstrable proof of the existence of your God or religious/spiritual path
2] addressing the fact that down through the ages hundreds of Gods and religious/spiritual paths to immortality and salvation were/are championed...but only one of which [if any] can be the true path. So why yours?
3] addressing the profoundly problematic role that dasein plays in any particular individual's belief in Gods and religious/spiritual faiths
4] the questions that revolve around theodicy and your own particular God or religious/spiritual path
And here, given my own frame of mind, IC is absolutely worthless in regard to sustaining intelligent exchanges.
To me I use him in order to note to others just how shallow the thinking of some can be in defending actual denominational religions like Christianity.
By the very nature of the case, that cause of the physical universe must be an immaterial (i.e., non-physical) being. Now there are only two types of things that could possibly fit that description: either an abstract object like a number, or an unembodied mind/consciousness. But abstract objects don’t stand in causal relations to physical things. The number 7, for example, has no effect on anything. Therefore the cause of the universe is an unembodied mind. Thus again we are brought, not merely to a transcendent cause of the universe, but to its Personal Creator.
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Dec 07, 2022 4:50 pm There you go: that's the problem with the explanation you might try to offer, suggesting a "transcendent-but-not-intelligent" cause for the universe's existence.
Again, the above is Craig's point, not mine. My point is this:
I figured mathematics would come to factor into this somehow.
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Dec 07, 2022 4:50 pm It does. It makes the argument a slam-dunk, actually.
See what I mean? His ridiculous "circular logic" above is the equivalent of 1 + 1 = the Christian God.
Now let's factor his "slam-dunk" "mathematical" argument for the Christian God's existence into this:
"...an endless procession of earthquakes and volcanic eruptions and tornadoes and hurricanes and great floods and great droughts and great fires and deadly viral and bacterial plagues and miscarriages and hundreds and hundreds of medical and mental afflictions and extinction events...making life on Earth a living hell for countless millions of men, women and children down through the ages...