Reincarnation

[promethean75]

I can say no more at this time and may have said too much already.

*ninja smoke bomb*

[Age]

I can say no more at this time and may have said too much already.

*ninja smoke bomb*

It was from this kind of behavior of NOT being OPEN and NOT being Honest being displayed here why it took these human beings so long to evolve and come to KNOW what the actual irrefutable Truth IS, AS WELL.

[Age]

It is like when people see or hear the letters 'ufo',

"Ufo" usually stands for "unidentified flying object", which I interpret as a flying object with an unknown identity. The term, in itself, doesn't really tell you much.

Maybe not. But the notion 'you', human beings, have and hold here can say a lot.

And, does the term 'reincarnation' tell you much?

[Iwannaplato]

Who or what created these many universes and fantastically ordered planets upon which incorporeal souls can carry on the process of diving in-and-out of corporeal bodies?

Was it (is it) some sort of joint effort orchestrated by all souls in existence? How?

Indeed, if such is a possibility,...

It seemed like your post might be intended to rule out the possibility of reincarnation given consequences of certain phenomena, like fertility treatments for women and potential changes in population (and the arguments would apply to changes in population already). I was tossing out some possibilities. Now you seem to be asking me to demonstrate that the scenarios I suggested are the case. My point was that you seemed possibly to be ruling something out, using a kind of deduction, but you can't rule it out that way. I understand the skepticism, but your post doesn't rule anything out. That's all. If it wasn't intended to be taken as ruling things out, well, then good questions.

Thus, from our current perspective (inside of the bubble), the universe is finite, not infinite.

There's no consensus on this in the scientific community.

Got any guesses as to how new souls are created? If so, I'd love to hear them.

Same response as my first one in this post.

In which case, why would the Buddha (or any other human, for that matter) be allowed to hog-up so many earthly bodies in consecutive (almost immediate) incarnations when, according to my wild (yet plausible) thought experiment, there could be a near infinity of other souls who also need those bodies in order to advance?

Cause he was a good boy and the universe rewards good boys and girls.[/quote]

Now you're just being silly.

Again, same response as the first one above.

Furthermore, according to the standard take on reincarnation, "good boys and girls" are rewarded with release from the suffering of corporeal existence, and not with endless incarnations back into the fray.

Once they've gone through a long series of incarnations, like the ones you mentioned here, and achieved something. It tends not to focus on the moral aspects of the person, though in Buddhism, at least some of the strands of it, something very close to a moral goodness is included in practices and goals.

I'm not a Buddhist however.

In my initial post in this thread, I created a fanciful thought experiment where in the span of a mere 38 years, humans (via genetic manipulation) caused the need for 352 billion human souls to be drawn (extricated) from what is presumed to be a higher (more important and substantial) context of reality, down into this lower context of materiality and suffering.

In other words, we're talking about a cosmic version of what seems to be the "tail wagging the dog" situation in that those higher (incorporeal) souls would have no choice but to drop whatever they may be doing in that higher context of reality and dive back (en masse) into this nasty lower one.

Or, it's not like that. The process has another form. Or they like coming in, despite the negative qualities. Or it's a kind of automatic process that isn't fair, but is. Or it has some consequences of meaning that we are good at speculating about, or some of us are not.

Clearly, we are both doing a lot of speculating here.

Ok, great. You are speculating and I am speculating. If the post I responded to was simply meant as speculation, great.

I encounter people on the internet who think they can rule things out with arguments similar to the one you made. Yours was present in a questioning form and you did not make any statements like...Thus we can rule out reincarnation. But I have seen lines of argument start that way or be intended as a kind of argument from incredulity. I think, opening the issue up more broadly, that people overestimate deduction. And not just around supernatural type issues. So, I tossed out some possibilities, as you say speculating. Deduction is obviously a very effective tool, but when we have very little information about something, it can be very misleading.

[Dontaskme]

Yikes. Well, some folks want other folks to do all that there heavy lifting, so they can sit back and pick at something other than the nose, don't you knows.

It's not a heavy lifting competition to realise the simple light truth that reincarnation is to wit a thoroughly bonkers idea.


AND is no more thoroughly bonkers than the Christian belief that goes something along the lines of.....As Jesus was the son of God, most Christians believe he could not have been conceived and born like a normal human. Because Jesus was the son of God, and his father was God rather than a human man, his mother Mary was a virgin when Jesus was born. This idea is known as the immaculate conception.

So in all truth and honesty, if Jesus was never a normal human being then neither is any human being normal.

[Walker]

So in all truth and honesty, if Jesus was never a normal human being then neither is any human being normal.

- Christ surrendered to his essence. He knew beyond doubt that he was the son of God.

- Every human has the capacity to know beyond doubt that everyone is made in the image of God. Every human can surrender to that essence. Like the effect of Christ's doubtless knowledge of his essence, the effect on folks who do the surrender is appropriate to circumstance.

- This has implications. To completely know this without doubt opens all kinds of doors and explains why they can be closed. Such knowing without doubt dispels the influence of delusions that obscure understanding.

- For instance, Christ knew that every move, every breath, every step, every choice took him closer to inevitability. Divinity gave him knowledge of the specifics. This had the effect of ordering the present, the future, and the unknown that divides, into one block unit of apprehension.

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=38839

[Dontaskme]

- Christ surrendered to his essence. He knew beyond doubt that he was the son of God.

Is a credulous theory. A story written by no one.

- Every human has the capacity to know beyond doubt that everyone is made in the image of God. Every human can surrender to that essence. Like the effect of Christ's doubtless knowledge of his essence, the effect on folks who do the surrender is appropriate to circumstance.

Is a credulous theory. A story written by no one.

- This has implications. To completely know this without doubt opens all kinds of doors and explains why they can be closed. Such knowing without doubt dispels the influence of delusions that obscure understanding.

Everyone is your Guru.....So.....you are everyone else's Guru.

- For instance, Christ knew that every move, every breath, every step, every choice took him closer to inevitability. Divinity gave him knowledge of the specifics.

What is 'real' in itself... wordless is the reply.

What is 'unreal' in itself... wordless is the reply.

Without words, 'unreality' is self evident.

Without words 'reality' is here now and now and now...

In other words, every claim to know is a credulous theory. A story written by no one.

[Walker]

First the reality.
The story is just reporting the news.
The story does not create the reality.

You be livin' in your head too much if it does.

[Dontaskme]

The Christian belief that goes something along the lines of.....As Jesus was the son of God, most Christians believe he could not have been conceived and born like a normal human. Because Jesus was the son of God, and his father was God rather than a human man, his mother Mary was a virgin when Jesus was born. This idea is known as the immaculate conception.

Jesus was not the son of God. Jesus by definition and fact was living flesh and bone born of another flesh and bone body, namely his mothers womb. No womb, no baby Jesus. That's just simple fact and logic.

Therefore, the idea that the Father of Jesus was not a human coupled with the idea that the Mother of Jesus was a virgin and had not been sired by a human male...is utterly the most ridiculous story ever to be believed, it's bonkers beyond belief. So, are we just obliged to go along with this weirdness? are we supposed to believe anything that comes from absolutely nothing at all? Thankfully, no.

[Dontaskme]

First the reality.

By knowing that, you are creating reality. You are reporting reality as first, as if it was your story.

The story is just reporting the news.
The story does not create the reality.

You be livin' in your head too much if it does.

Well since you agree there is no one living inside the head. No need to create a story that was never there / here to begin with, except in the illusory sense that it could live inside some flesh and bone body. Which means, the body has created itself.

[Dontaskme]

How about we discuss, define, agree upon, and accept what the word 'reincarnation' refers to, EXACTLY, before anyone starts claiming that 'it' does exist, or does not exist, or even 'tries to' argue either way?

Or, is this just a silly suggestion and/or stupid way of doing things here?

Reincarnation can only refer to the meaning put there using more concepts.

The concept ''Reincarnation'' informs the rebirth of a soul in another body.

So, the known concept of 'reincarnation' in this case refers to a ''soul'' assumingly a 'someone' that leaves the dying body to then seek out and implant itself in another body which is known as being reborn.

But if that is known for absolute definite certainty then we must never question or doubt whether anyone who really died ever rose again with the same body because the belief in and of itself truly claims it is true. It claims that those who die rise again with the exact same body.


And yet another belief informs us that Nature never repeats exactly....

The fundamental principle of the universe that Physics still doesn't explain: no two stones are identical, no two leaves are identical, no two cats are identical, no two hands are identical, ... no two planets are identical, no two stars are identical.
There are billions of stars in the sky but there is no geometry. And, if you look close enough, they are all different. Ditto for the rocks of this planet and any other planet, and ditto for everything that nature does. All fundamentally different from each other.
Nature never repeats itself.
It's a fundamental law of the universe, but it does not show up in the formulas of Physics: how deterministic laws can produce a natural world that never repeats itself.
This is not about randomness. There are very deterministic causes that lead to the shape of a rock or of a planet; but those causes, somehow, always lead to something unique, to something that never was before.
That's why a copy of you doesn't exist and never will: no two brains are identical.
Any deterministic law should generate repeating patterns of some kind. Maybe the laws of the universe are not deterministic after all. Maybe determinism is a fiction of the human mind.

So in essence all that is known to be happening here, is that there is a mysterious overlaying construction of what can only be artificially imagined as to what is in reality this totally unknowable unknown, which only appears as if it is known as and through the minds capacity to fantasize knowledge into existence, which in and of itself can only be made of pure make-belief, likened to a dream in this mental dreamscape we call the stories of our lives.


This superimposed reality is placed there specifically on purpose because without that purpose or reason, we would only be left with the unthinkable truth that ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ON THIS EARTH MAKES ANY SENSE WHATSOEVER without the BELIEFS we artificially impose upon THIS EVER ELUSIVE..this always mysterious NOT-KNOWING Reality.

[Age]

How about we discuss, define, agree upon, and accept what the word 'reincarnation' refers to, EXACTLY, before anyone starts claiming that 'it' does exist, or does not exist, or even 'tries to' argue either way?

Or, is this just a silly suggestion and/or stupid way of doing things here?

Reincarnation can only refer to the meaning put there using more concepts.

The concept ''Reincarnation'' informs the rebirth of a soul in another body.

It may well do, but like every other word a Wrong misconception can be formed from it.

So, the known concept of 'reincarnation' in this case refers to a ''soul'' assumingly a 'someone' that leaves the dying body to then seek out and implant itself in another body which is known as being reborn.

And, once again, if one did NOT 'assume' some thing, then they would be FAR MORE OPEN to seeing and learning what thee actual Truth IS, EXACTLY.

But if that is known for absolute definite certainty then we must never question or doubt whether anyone who really died ever rose again with the same body because the belief in and of itself truly claims it is true. It claims that those who die rise again with the exact same body.

I also suggest NEVER 'believing' ANY thing. Again, doing so inhibits the ability to learn, and understand, what thee actual Truth IS, EXACTLY.

And yet another belief informs us that Nature never repeats exactly....

The fundamental principle of the universe that Physics still doesn't explain: no two stones are identical, no two leaves are identical, no two cats are identical, no two hands are identical, ... no two planets are identical, no two stars are identical.
There are billions of stars in the sky but there is no geometry. And, if you look close enough, they are all different. Ditto for the rocks of this planet and any other planet, and ditto for everything that nature does. All fundamentally different from each other.
Nature never repeats itself.
It's a fundamental law of the universe, but it does not show up in the formulas of Physics: how deterministic laws can produce a natural world that never repeats itself.
This is not about randomness. There are very deterministic causes that lead to the shape of a rock or of a planet; but those causes, somehow, always lead to something unique, to something that never was before.
That's why a copy of you doesn't exist and never will: no two brains are identical.
Any deterministic law should generate repeating patterns of some kind. Maybe the laws of the universe are not deterministic after all. Maybe determinism is a fiction of the human mind.

So in essence all that is known to be happening here, is that there is a mysterious overlaying construction of what can only be artificially imagined as to what is in reality this totally unknowable unknown, which only appears as if it is known as and through the minds capacity to fantasize knowledge into existence, which in and of itself can only be made of pure make-belief, likened to a dream in this mental dreamscape we call the stories of our lives.

AND, EVERY time you bring up this 'concept', 'I' am going to inform 'you' that what 'you' call 'mysterious' is NOT 'mysterious', AT ALL, to ALL of 'us'.

This superimposed reality is placed there specifically on purpose because without that purpose or reason, we would only be left with the unthinkable truth that ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ON THIS EARTH MAKES ANY SENSE WHATSOEVER without the BELIEFS we artificially impose upon THIS EVER ELUSIVE..this always mysterious NOT-KNOWING Reality.

It is mostly because of those BELIEFS, which 'you', adult human beings, have and hold onto, the reason WHY things do NOT make 'sense', to 'you'.

Remove the BELIEFS and 'sense' just comes, and flows, NATURALLY.

[Harbal]

I sometimes get a strong sense that I’ve been here before. Occasionally, I get vague flashbacks where I am bounding along chasing rabbits, and by the way the grass towers above me I think I must have been a weasel, or something like that.

I have heard of others who believe that they have had a previous existence, and some have done research into who they were in their past life. It is amazing what can be discovered by going through historic records. I fear it would be a waste of time in my case, as the family history of weasels is very poorly documented.

[Dontaskme]

AND, EVERY time you bring up this 'concept', 'I' am going to inform 'you' that what 'you' call 'mysterious' is NOT 'mysterious', AT ALL, to ALL of 'us'.

The 'you' is a mystery even to itself because there is no way for 'you' to be present at your own conception or your own death. So that which is a mystery cannot not be a mystery as the concept is known. A 'known'' can never be made unknown, that simply wouldn't make any sense either.

It is mostly because of those BELIEFS, which 'you', adult human beings, have and hold onto, the reason WHY things do NOT make 'sense', to 'you'.

Remove the BELIEFS and 'sense' just comes, and flows, NATURALLY.

The Sense of any Sensation is obviously known in the experience of it. But that's not the sense being pointed to here, what's being pointed to here, is how are we supposed to make sense of the affirmation that Jesus is the son of his Father who is not human. And that Jesus was also born of a barren woman, namely from his Virgin Mothers womb.
Now, that's what I am talking about when it comes to making sense of this religious idea that there is a God who is not human but this God is the Father of Jesus who is human. And then this idea grows into an even bigger idea that Jesus who is walking on a planet earth is not actually from this planet.
In other words, it doesn't make any sense in the sense that knowledge really does inform one that one really does need to come from a womb in order to exist as a human being.

[Dontaskme]

I sometimes get a strong sense that I’ve been here before. Occasionally, I get vague flashbacks where I am bounding along chasing rabbits, and by the way the grass towers above me I think I must have been a weasel, or something like that.

I have heard of others who believe that they have had a previous existence, and some have done research into who they were in their past life. It is amazing what can be discovered by going through historic records. I fear it would be a waste of time in my case, as the family history of weasels is very poorly documented.

Just imagine it.

You could have been a plant in which case your user name might have suited the title ''Herbal''
Or even ''Hairbal'' if you'd been a weasel.