Christianity

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: Sat Oct 29, 2022 4:49 pm Nice. But no part of any of this addresses any part of my criticisms of those specific issues and questions I bring up.
It doesn't address your last message, and wasn't intended to.

It was a response more to the earlier message, one aimed at merely a reflecting-back to you of what I am receiving from you, and what I suspect others are, as well. It's what "seems." It's not a judgment on your character, but on your current method.

You may make the use of it that you find fit.

However, you are also correct that this is not a response to your most recent post, which just "arrived" to me. Addressing the other objections you raise will take another message, at least. I haven't enough time at the present moment, but shall get back to it.
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FlashDangerpants
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Re: Christianity

Post by FlashDangerpants »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Oct 29, 2022 5:11 pm
FlashDangerpants wrote: Sat Oct 29, 2022 4:54 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Oct 29, 2022 3:35 pm
He does. It's true.

And you substitute abuse for refutation, and nastiness for thought. But I find you toothless, and conversation with you of very low value. He, at least, presents a challenge of some kind. You don't offer much, so I really don't bother responding to you with much length. You don't appear to me to be interested in ideas, actually...just in trolling and spite.

I have no time for that.
You normally adopt that attitude after making an argument that you don't wish to explain the logical basis of.
No, just after you chime in, though. I find that in most cases, there isn't anything in your input worth working on...just bigotry, insults, mean-spiritedness and so on. There isn't enough intellectual depth to respond to, and as for the theatrics, well, my life is about other things.
Whatever. We both know that the next time I ask you to explain how some argument you are presenting works you are going to find excuses to not answer the question and those will be broadly similar to the ones AJ is deploying.
Nick_A
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Re: Christianity

Post by Nick_A »

ThinkOfOne wrote: Sat Oct 29, 2022 2:37 am
Nick_A wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 10:53 pm
Has anyone really pondered the essence of Christianity...?
Earlier you posted the following:
The essence and value of Christianity lies in the Cross. But as we have seen, it isn't wanted by the world.
Can you elaborate on this?
I will give my explanation which is different then the usual secular conceptions. A cross consist of two lines. The first is the horizontal line of facts and opinions. The second is the vertical line of being which connects everything to their source by the quality of their being. It is known as the great chain of being. https://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/en ... n_of_Being

The point where the line of opinions intersects the line of being is called our "understanding." Ideal human evolution takes place when the horizontil line of facts evolves together with the line of being increasing our understanding of human meaning and purpose. The fall of man created the absurd situation where as the line of facts evolves, the line of being remains the same.

The crucifixion dealt with this problem. It created a non resolvable tension between the suffering of the crucifixion together with the conscious will to experience it. It could only be resolved by the third force of the Spirit from a higher perspective leading to the Resurrection. It is the essence of Christianity.

The secular world doesn't want it since it has no conception of the line of being. To do so would admit a conscious source of being which it cannot do.

This is a brief explanation and would require a different format to do justice to it.
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: Christianity

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

FlashDangerpants wrote: Sat Oct 29, 2022 5:15 pm Or you could have answered the question without demanding a bilbiography of anyone who dares question you.

But achingly sad wriggling in order to avoid answering questions is the key skill that you and Immanuel Can share. And that was the point I was making for Seeds, so .... kinda point made really isn't it?
Your “question” was not genuine. It was of the “do you still beat your wife” variety. To have engaged in an answer would be to agree with your assertion (that I ‘deny’ the Shoah).

Don’t conflate IC and myself.

There is no genuine question that he might ask, or that you might ask (here on this thread and topic) that I would not make a sincere effort to answer.

Why don’t you find a way to engage with the topic at hand?
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: Christianity

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Oct 29, 2022 5:16 pm It was a response more to the earlier message, one aimed at merely a reflecting-back to you of what I am receiving from you, and what I suspect others are, as well. It's what "seems." It's not a judgment on your character, but on your current method.

You may make the use of it that you find fit.
After crying in the bathroom for 45 minutes I resolved to carry on. 😣

I came out and dried my tears.

Others, those others . . .

L’enfer c’est les autres . . .

(Back to the bathroom!)
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FlashDangerpants
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Re: Christianity

Post by FlashDangerpants »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: Sat Oct 29, 2022 5:33 pm
FlashDangerpants wrote: Sat Oct 29, 2022 5:15 pm Or you could have answered the question without demanding a bilbiography of anyone who dares question you.

But achingly sad wriggling in order to avoid answering questions is the key skill that you and Immanuel Can share. And that was the point I was making for Seeds, so .... kinda point made really isn't it?
Your “question” was not genuine. It was of the “do you still beat your wife” variety. To have engaged in an answer would be to agree with your assertion (that I ‘deny’ the Shoah).

Don’t conflate IC and myself.

There is no genuine question that he might ask, or that you might ask (here on this thread and topic) that I would not make a sincere effort to answer.

Why don’t you find a way to engage with the topic at hand?
Actually you wrote...
Alexis Jacobi wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 1:07 am The Shoah narrative has some fictional elements which are still contested. But the general picture (the destruction of European Jewry) is a certainty.
And all you've ever needed to do was expand that first sentence.
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FlashDangerpants
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Re: Christianity

Post by FlashDangerpants »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: Sat Oct 29, 2022 5:33 pm Don’t conflate IC and myself.

There is no genuine question that he might ask, or that you might ask (here on this thread and topic) that I would not make a sincere effort to answer.
So I called your bluff in that other thread and now you are demanding that I present credentials before you can answer a simple question again.
This is an IC tactic, this is why you are so directly comparable with him.

That isn't what conflate means by the way, mister "I can't use the word holocaust because I'm much too precise in my language for that".
Belinda
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Re: Christianity

Post by Belinda »

I think an Evangelical Biblical literalist believes she has arrived at the straight high road to the Celestial City and her task is simply to follow Biblical signposts and not deviate.

The pilgrim Christian who knows he is a pilgrim on a quest knows also that there is no straight high road and he is going to have to deal with all manner of obstacles.
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: Christianity

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

The pilgrim Christian who knows he is a pilgrim on a quest knows also that there is no straight high road and he is going to have to deal with all manner of obstacles.
Thank you. That explains Mr. Hot Pants.
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: Christianity

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

Conflate. 1a : to bring together : BLEND
“Even more often, outsiders conflate the couple, and credit them with each other's characteristics.”

— Alison Lurie
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attofishpi
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Re: Christianity

Post by attofishpi »

FlashDangerpants wrote: Sat Oct 29, 2022 5:17 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Oct 29, 2022 5:11 pm
FlashDangerpants wrote: Sat Oct 29, 2022 4:54 pm
You normally adopt that attitude after making an argument that you don't wish to explain the logical basis of.
No, just after you chime in, though. I find that in most cases, there isn't anything in your input worth working on...just bigotry, insults, mean-spiritedness and so on. There isn't enough intellectual depth to respond to, and as for the theatrics, well, my life is about other things.
Whatever. We both know that the next time I ask you to explain how some argument you are presenting works you are going to find excuses to not answer the question and those will be broadly similar to the ones AJ is deploying.
I have to admit that in recent interactions with AJ I do see your point that he and IC are very similar - in my view unethical by way of an honest debate.
They both avoid simple questions whenever their concern that their egos might get bruised in areas where they clearly doubt themselves.
It's another case of the "intellectual" dilema where so many books have been read, much knowledge gained but lacking in intelligent analysis, hence poor comprehension of the subject, in this case any actual truth to God and the life of Christ. (but they may be forgiven since such comprehension cannot be gained from books alone)
ThinkOfOne
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Re: Christianity

Post by ThinkOfOne »

Nick_A wrote: Sat Oct 29, 2022 5:25 pm
ThinkOfOne wrote: Sat Oct 29, 2022 2:37 am
Nick_A wrote: Fri Oct 28, 2022 10:53 pm
Has anyone really pondered the essence of Christianity...?
Earlier you posted the following:
The essence and value of Christianity lies in the Cross. But as we have seen, it isn't wanted by the world.
Can you elaborate on this?
I will give my explanation which is different then the usual secular conceptions. A cross consist of two lines. The first is the horizontal line of facts and opinions. The second is the vertical line of being which connects everything to their source by the quality of their being. It is known as the great chain of being. https://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/en ... n_of_Being

The point where the line of opinions intersects the line of being is called our "understanding." Ideal human evolution takes place when the horizontil line of facts evolves together with the line of being increasing our understanding of human meaning and purpose. The fall of man created the absurd situation where as the line of facts evolves, the line of being remains the same.

The crucifixion dealt with this problem. It created a non resolvable tension between the suffering of the crucifixion together with the conscious will to experience it. It could only be resolved by the third force of the Spirit from a higher perspective leading to the Resurrection. It is the essence of Christianity.

The secular world doesn't want it since it has no conception of the line of being. To do so would admit a conscious source of being which it cannot do.

This is a brief explanation and would require a different format to do justice to it.
Can you elaborate on the section in blue? For example, where do concepts such as salvation and receiving the Holy Spirit fit in?

Also, by "secular world" do you mean non-Christian?
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iambiguous
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Re: Christianity

Post by iambiguous »

Does God Exist?
William Lane Craig says there are good reasons for thinking that He does.
The renaissance of Christian philosophy has been accompanied by a resurgence of interest in natural theology – that branch of theology which seeks to prove God’s existence without appeal to the resources of authoritative divine revelation – for instance, through philosophical argument.
Natural theology. Where here are the dots connected between philosophical language and the sort of things that scientists might do in grappling with the existence of a God, the God? How far removed is it from defining or deducing God into existence?

Natural theology: theology or knowledge of God based on observed facts and experience apart from divine revelation.

That certainly works for me. Some have personal experiences that lead them to believe in a God, the God. Or they observe something empirically, materially, phenomenologically that seems to indicate to them that God can exist...if not any specific God.

Link us to it.
All of the traditional philosophical arguments for God’s existence, such as the cosmological, teleological, moral, and ontological arguments, not to mention creative, new arguments, find intelligent and articulate defenders on the contemporary philosophical scene.
Arguments...arguments...arguments.

Anyone here familiar with some of the new "intelligent and articulate" ones? Please note them. Let's discuss them in regards to the points I make here:
1] a demonstrable proof of the existence of a God, the God
2] addressing the fact that down through the ages hundreds of Gods and religious/spiritual paths to immortality and salvation were/are championed...but only one of which [if any] can be the true path. So why yours?
3] addressing the profoundly problematic role that dasein plays in any particular individual's belief in a God, the God.
4] the questions that revolve around theodicy and your own particular God
But what about the so-called ‘New Atheism’ exemplified by Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, and Christopher Hitchens? Doesn’t it herald a reversal of this trend? Not really. As is evident from the authors it interacts with – or rather, doesn’t interact with – the New Atheism is, in fact, a pop-cultural phenomenon lacking in intellectual muscle and blissfully ignorant of the revolution that has taken place in Anglo-American philosophy. It tends to reflect the scientism of a bygone generation, rather than the contemporary intellectual scene.
Okay, the contemporary intellectual scene and God. What are these new arguments as they pertain to the question, "how ought one to live morally in a world awash in conflicting goods and contingency, chance and change?"

How do they lack intellectual muscle and wallow in blissful ignorance other than that they challenge those who embrace God and religion...by noting how the True Believers themselves present arguments totally lacking in intellectual muscle and very much predicated on blissful ignorance.

Also, given these new assessments, how do they change the part where the dots are connected between morality on this side of the grave and immortality and salvation on the other side of it.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

iambiguous wrote: Sun Oct 30, 2022 2:03 am Natural theology: theology or knowledge of God based on observed facts and experience apart from divine revelation.

That certainly works for me.
You'll want "The Blackwell Companion to Natural Theology." That's the main resource on that subject.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

FlashDangerpants wrote: Sat Oct 29, 2022 5:17 pm We both know that the next time I ask you to explain how some argument you are presenting works you are going to find excuses to not answer the question and those will be broadly similar to the ones AJ is deploying.
The next time you ask me something that's remotely challenging or interesting to deal with, I'll let you know.

It isn't now.
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