Dietary guidelines have been followed yet we are still FAT

[Sculptor]

Please cite what?

You know, that request is really rich coming from you seeing as you refuse to cite the source of your graph and its context.

I've given you a comprehensive reading list.
You have offered nothing but personal opinion and speculation.

And you continue to cite the source of your graph and its context. Listing a dozen or so what look like "self-help" book titles isn't the same as citing the the source and context of that particular graph. One would have to be extremely disingenuous to to claim that they have. What's more, are you really so naive so as to not understand that a high percentage of "self-help" books are nothing more than "personal opinion and speculation". They often base their "personal opinion and speculation" by publishing misleading information so as to dupe those with simplistic views. As such you've only offered your "personal opinion and speculation" based on their "personal opinion and speculation". Everyone who understands statistics and is familiar with the guidelines can only laugh and shake their heads at the type of "personal opinion and speculation" that you've presented on this thread.

The evidence it presents is a no-brainer; part of knowledge that is in the public domain.
It is no point bandying words with you, who are clearly only posting on this thread to be contrarian. Had you the slightest interest in educating yourself you would take some time to examine the matter for yourself, as I have.
SO run along, and come back if you have any evidence that my presentation is false.

[Gary Childress]

And here's the rise in obesity

obesity rise.JPG

Coincidence, maybe? A lot of Americans don't follow dietary guidelines. Also, I think exercise is something we don't get as much of as we did before the days of the personal computer.

Actually the data shows that the purchases of meat, meat fats, have all gone down, whilst the purchase of vegetable products have increased. This has also included an increase in oils made in factories from Soya, corn, cottonseed and rape seed. These have led to the increase in the (now vilified) trans fats in the diet.
As time has progressed big foods businesses have replaced fats for more sugar, improving their profits.
These changes are in step is the epidemic in T2D, obesity and ALzeimers which are fast becoming associated with low fat diets which include grains, especially wheat grains and so-called healthy fats.
There are now identified metabolic pathways to further implicate factory made fats and refined grains and sugars.

I've been looking into these issues this year. Here is my reading list
2020, Taubes, Gary, The Case for Keto, Granta
2010, Taubes, Gary, Why We Get Fat, Anchor
2020, Macciochi, J., Immunity; the science of staying well, Experiment Pub.
2021, Lustig, Robert, Metabolical, Hodder & Stoughton
2013, Lustig, Robert, Fat Chance, Harper Collins.
2021, Specter, Tim, Spoon Fed,Vintage Books.
2021, Chatterje, Rangan, The Four Pillar Plan, Penguin.
2016, Fung, J, The Complete Guide To Fasting, Victory Belt Publishing.
2022 Johnson, Richard, Nature Wants Us to Be Fat, BenBella Books
2014 Permutter, Dr David, Grain Brain, Hodder & Stoughton.
2014, Teicholz, Nina, The Big Fat Surprise, Simon & Schuster.

And as you can see guidlines have been followed

guidlines.JPG

People binge eat a lot from what I've witnessed--especially fast food and snacks. Do we know how much per capita they're eating. Also do we know that a lot of those fruits and veggies aren't being consumed as fried or surgary snacks. A LOT of people don't get much in the way of exercise and exercise is a critical factor, unless I'm mistaken. I'm just working off anecdotal observations. I could certainly be wrong. But I am a little skeptical of dietary guidelines being the problem.

[Sculptor]

Coincidence, maybe? A lot of Americans don't follow dietary guidelines. Also, I think exercise is something we don't get as much of as we did before the days of the personal computer.

Actually the data shows that the purchases of meat, meat fats, have all gone down, whilst the purchase of vegetable products have increased. This has also included an increase in oils made in factories from Soya, corn, cottonseed and rape seed. These have led to the increase in the (now vilified) trans fats in the diet.
As time has progressed big foods businesses have replaced fats for more sugar, improving their profits.
These changes are in step is the epidemic in T2D, obesity and ALzeimers which are fast becoming associated with low fat diets which include grains, especially wheat grains and so-called healthy fats.
There are now identified metabolic pathways to further implicate factory made fats and refined grains and sugars.

I've been looking into these issues this year. Here is my reading list
2020, Taubes, Gary, The Case for Keto, Granta
2010, Taubes, Gary, Why We Get Fat, Anchor
2020, Macciochi, J., Immunity; the science of staying well, Experiment Pub.
2021, Lustig, Robert, Metabolical, Hodder & Stoughton
2013, Lustig, Robert, Fat Chance, Harper Collins.
2021, Specter, Tim, Spoon Fed,Vintage Books.
2021, Chatterje, Rangan, The Four Pillar Plan, Penguin.
2016, Fung, J, The Complete Guide To Fasting, Victory Belt Publishing.
2022 Johnson, Richard, Nature Wants Us to Be Fat, BenBella Books
2014 Permutter, Dr David, Grain Brain, Hodder & Stoughton.
2014, Teicholz, Nina, The Big Fat Surprise, Simon & Schuster.

And as you can see guidlines have been followed

guidlines.JPG

People binge eat a lot from what I've witnessed--especially fast food and snacks. Do we know how much per capita they're eating. Also do we know that a lot of those fruits and veggies aren't being consumed as fried or surgary snacks. A LOT of people don't get much in the way of exercise and exercise is a critical factor, unless I'm mistaken. I'm just working off anecdotal observations. I could certainly be wrong. But I am a little skeptical of dietary guidelines being the problem.

The main problem with the guidelines is that fat has become vilified, when it is in fact a very satiating food. Problems with fat have been recorded without the valuable distinctions between trans fats (now banned in the USA) and natural fats which are now being forgiven.
The vilification of fat in general has given license to food processing companies to exchange fat for sugar in processed foods, which has massively increased the refined carbohydrate burden on the population.
Other distinctions today have identified that fats from seed-oils such as cottonseed, soya, corn oil "vegetable oils" are harmful because they are inflammatory.
You might have noticed that butter, lard and tallow have slowly been exonerated, and along with olive oil, avocado oil and coconut oil (which in voove minimal processing) are now considered much safer than the vegetable oils made in factories such as Crisco and Canola.
A moment's thought about how you get oil from a corn cob should get anyone to ask why anyone would want to eat that stuff. It take 100 cobs to extract 2 spoonfuls of oil. This process involves superheating, bleaching, filtering and treating with petrochemical solvents such as Hexane.

You might also have noticed over the last few years that the anti cholesterol advice is melting away too. Now it is considered perfectly safe to eat as many eggs as you want. As science has grown we now know that 80-90% of serum cholesterol, is endogenously made in the liver and so eating lots of it makes ZERO difference to cholesterol in the blood since the gut expels what the body does not need through feces and uptake if regulated by the gut lining. There is a tiny minority of people who (genetically) have trouble with managing this process, but for the vast majority of people moderating dietary cholesterol is irrelevant.
Yet Ancel Keys (the many that put the "K" in K-rations) was obsessed with saturated fat and cholesterol, but the science has never supported his POV.

THe guidelines are still working like a ball and chain, and are clinging on with inertia as with many paradigms where "experts" have staked their careers on support are reluctant to admit to mistakes.

History will show that the period from 1970 to 2025 was an aberration in dietary advice in a world where Coca-Cola and Proctor and Gamble fund the American Heart Association and the AMerican Dietetics authority, even the Diabetes research is funded by people with vested interests in sugar; it is no wonder that the guidelines are skewed..
Before 1970 we already knew that sugar made you fat, not fat. Taubes is helpful here at tracing the history of dietary science."Case for KETO", and "WHy we get fat"

If you are really interested, you should read Metabolical by Robert Lustig, is a good place to start.

[Gary Childress]

Actually the data shows that the purchases of meat, meat fats, have all gone down, whilst the purchase of vegetable products have increased. This has also included an increase in oils made in factories from Soya, corn, cottonseed and rape seed. These have led to the increase in the (now vilified) trans fats in the diet.
As time has progressed big foods businesses have replaced fats for more sugar, improving their profits.
These changes are in step is the epidemic in T2D, obesity and ALzeimers which are fast becoming associated with low fat diets which include grains, especially wheat grains and so-called healthy fats.
There are now identified metabolic pathways to further implicate factory made fats and refined grains and sugars.

I've been looking into these issues this year. Here is my reading list
2020, Taubes, Gary, The Case for Keto, Granta
2010, Taubes, Gary, Why We Get Fat, Anchor
2020, Macciochi, J., Immunity; the science of staying well, Experiment Pub.
2021, Lustig, Robert, Metabolical, Hodder & Stoughton
2013, Lustig, Robert, Fat Chance, Harper Collins.
2021, Specter, Tim, Spoon Fed,Vintage Books.
2021, Chatterje, Rangan, The Four Pillar Plan, Penguin.
2016, Fung, J, The Complete Guide To Fasting, Victory Belt Publishing.
2022 Johnson, Richard, Nature Wants Us to Be Fat, BenBella Books
2014 Permutter, Dr David, Grain Brain, Hodder & Stoughton.
2014, Teicholz, Nina, The Big Fat Surprise, Simon & Schuster.

And as you can see guidlines have been followed

guidlines.JPG

People binge eat a lot from what I've witnessed--especially fast food and snacks. Do we know how much per capita they're eating. Also do we know that a lot of those fruits and veggies aren't being consumed as fried or surgary snacks. A LOT of people don't get much in the way of exercise and exercise is a critical factor, unless I'm mistaken. I'm just working off anecdotal observations. I could certainly be wrong. But I am a little skeptical of dietary guidelines being the problem.

The main problem with the guidelines is that fat has become vilified, when it is in fact a very satiating food. Problems with fat have been recorded without the valuable distinctions between trans fats (now banned in the USA) and natural fats which are now being forgiven.
The vilification of fat in general has given license to food processing companies to exchange fat for sugar in processed foods, which has massively increased the refined carbohydrate burden on the population.
Other distinctions today have identified that fats from seed-oils such as cottonseed, soya, corn oil "vegetable oils" are harmful because they are inflammatory.
You might have noticed that butter, lard and tallow have slowly been exonerated, and along with olive oil, avocado oil and coconut oil (which in voove minimal processing) are now considered much safer than the vegetable oils made in factories such as Crisco and Canola.
A moment's thought about how you get oil from a corn cob should get anyone to ask why anyone would want to eat that stuff. It take 100 cobs to extract 2 spoonfuls of oil. This process involves superheating, bleaching, filtering and treating with petrochemical solvents such as Hexane.

You might also have noticed over the last few years that the anti cholesterol advice is melting away too. Now it is considered perfectly safe to eat as many eggs as you want. As science has grown we now know that 80-90% of serum cholesterol, is endogenously made in the liver and so eating lots of it makes ZERO difference to cholesterol in the blood since the gut expels what the body does not need through feces and uptake if regulated by the gut lining. There is a tiny minority of people who (genetically) have trouble with managing this process, but for the vast majority of people moderating dietary cholesterol is irrelevant.
Yet Ancel Keys (the many that put the "K" in K-rations) was obsessed with saturated fat and cholesterol, but the science has never supported his POV.

THe guidelines are still working like a ball and chain, and are clinging on with inertia as with many paradigms where "experts" have staked their careers on support are reluctant to admit to mistakes.

History will show that the period from 1970 to 2025 was an aberration in dietary advice in a world where Coca-Cola and Proctor and Gamble fund the American Heart Association and the AMerican Dietetics authority, even the Diabetes research is funded by people with vested interests in sugar; it is no wonder that the guidelines are skewed..
Before 1970 we already knew that sugar made you fat, not fat. Taubes is helpful here at tracing the history of dietary science."Case for KETO", and "WHy we get fat"

If you are really interested, you should read Metabolical by Robert Lustig, is a good place to start.

What are the dietary guidelines that you are saying are damaging? Last I heard everyone knew sugar was a bad actor in diets. I thought conventional wisdom is that eating too much sugar will cause obesity and diabetes. Is anyone advocating more sugar in diets? I thought dietary guidelines were pretty much unanimous on that. So if sugar is the culprit isn't it going AGAINST dietary guidelines to over indulge in it?

[Walker]

The main problem with the guidelines is that fat has become vilified, when it is in fact a very satiating food. Problems with fat have been recorded without the valuable distinctions between trans fats (now banned in the USA) and natural fats which are now being forgiven.

Have you read books by Barry Sears? He wrote The Zone (his first diet book, the last one I read) and brought to public consciousness how insulin affects fat retention, and how to control weight with a proper, reasonable diet. For instance, he recommends eating five times a day, which is great.

His knowledge is expert, not faddish, and he says much the same as what you've concluded from your reading list.

Sears put food into perspective for me, and got me off the Twinkies. What he said made sense, worked, was easy and adaptable. No need to keep looking for answers, after Sears.

*

I was checking out how to make pemmican the other day. Interesting food. Half fat, half dried meat ground fine. Melt the fat, mix it with meat, it will stay preserved. They would also add some dried currants. It was a staple for travelers in the American frontier. One buffalo would yield 90 pounds of pemmican. It was survivalist food, best take a long walk after eating all that fat.

[Sculptor]

People binge eat a lot from what I've witnessed--especially fast food and snacks. Do we know how much per capita they're eating. Also do we know that a lot of those fruits and veggies aren't being consumed as fried or surgary snacks. A LOT of people don't get much in the way of exercise and exercise is a critical factor, unless I'm mistaken. I'm just working off anecdotal observations. I could certainly be wrong. But I am a little skeptical of dietary guidelines being the problem.

The main problem with the guidelines is that fat has become vilified, when it is in fact a very satiating food. Problems with fat have been recorded without the valuable distinctions between trans fats (now banned in the USA) and natural fats which are now being forgiven.
The vilification of fat in general has given license to food processing companies to exchange fat for sugar in processed foods, which has massively increased the refined carbohydrate burden on the population.
Other distinctions today have identified that fats from seed-oils such as cottonseed, soya, corn oil "vegetable oils" are harmful because they are inflammatory.
You might have noticed that butter, lard and tallow have slowly been exonerated, and along with olive oil, avocado oil and coconut oil (which in voove minimal processing) are now considered much safer than the vegetable oils made in factories such as Crisco and Canola.
A moment's thought about how you get oil from a corn cob should get anyone to ask why anyone would want to eat that stuff. It take 100 cobs to extract 2 spoonfuls of oil. This process involves superheating, bleaching, filtering and treating with petrochemical solvents such as Hexane.

You might also have noticed over the last few years that the anti cholesterol advice is melting away too. Now it is considered perfectly safe to eat as many eggs as you want. As science has grown we now know that 80-90% of serum cholesterol, is endogenously made in the liver and so eating lots of it makes ZERO difference to cholesterol in the blood since the gut expels what the body does not need through feces and uptake if regulated by the gut lining. There is a tiny minority of people who (genetically) have trouble with managing this process, but for the vast majority of people moderating dietary cholesterol is irrelevant.
Yet Ancel Keys (the many that put the "K" in K-rations) was obsessed with saturated fat and cholesterol, but the science has never supported his POV.

THe guidelines are still working like a ball and chain, and are clinging on with inertia as with many paradigms where "experts" have staked their careers on support are reluctant to admit to mistakes.

History will show that the period from 1970 to 2025 was an aberration in dietary advice in a world where Coca-Cola and Proctor and Gamble fund the American Heart Association and the AMerican Dietetics authority, even the Diabetes research is funded by people with vested interests in sugar; it is no wonder that the guidelines are skewed..
Before 1970 we already knew that sugar made you fat, not fat. Taubes is helpful here at tracing the history of dietary science."Case for KETO", and "WHy we get fat"

If you are really interested, you should read Metabolical by Robert Lustig, is a good place to start.

What are the dietary guidelines that you are saying are damaging? Last I heard everyone knew sugar was a bad actor in diets. I thought conventional wisdom is that eating too much sugar will cause obesity and diabetes. Is anyone advocating more sugar in diets? I thought dietary guidelines were pretty much unanimous on that. So if sugar is the culprit isn't it going AGAINST dietary guidelines to over indulge in it?

The original guidelines do not warn against sugar. And sadly they favour carbohydrates above fats. Refined carbs as are found in pasta, flour products and rice also contribute to diabetes and vascular disease due to insulin metabolism.

[Sculptor]

The main problem with the guidelines is that fat has become vilified, when it is in fact a very satiating food. Problems with fat have been recorded without the valuable distinctions between trans fats (now banned in the USA) and natural fats which are now being forgiven.

Have you read books by Barry Sears? He wrote The Zone (his first diet book, the last one I read) and brought to public consciousness how insulin affects fat retention, and how to control weight with a proper, reasonable diet. For instance, he recommends eating five times a day, which is great.

Yes insulin causes fat retention but no; eating five times a day is bad because is keeps the insulin high all day long, and never gives your body a chance to burn fat.

His knowledge is expert, not faddish, and he says much the same as what you've concluded from your reading list.

His advice does not work in the long term, since people who are eating all day cannot sustain calories restriction and end puting back all the weight.
98% of the "Big Losers" all put on their weight within the year, and most ended up heavier than before.
The key to weight loss is fasting, which stops the insulin and invokes fat burning in the tissues.
None of the books I list are faddish; they are based on the latest research.

Sears put food into perspective for me, and got me off the Twinkies. What he said made sense, worked, was easy and adaptable. No need to keep looking for answers, after Sears.

Stay off the Twinkies by all means, but keep an eye on your A1C, as 80% of Americans are metabolically unhealthy even thin ones. Eventually all those carbs will put up your insulin resistance which can lead to diabetes.

*

I was checking out how to make pemmican the other day. Interesting food. Half fat, half dried meat ground fine. Melt the fat, mix it with meat, it will stay preserved. They would also add some dried currants. It was a staple for travelers in the American frontier. One buffalo would yield 90 pounds of pemmican. It was survivalist food, best take a long walk after eating all that fat.

Sounds interesting. How does it stay preserved?

[Sculptor]

Saturated FAT bad or good??


https://academic.oup.com/eurjpc/advance ... ogin=false

[Walker]

Sounds interesting. How does it stay preserved?

https://savoringthepast.net/2021/11/25/pemmican/

“Pemmican, produced and stored in this fashion, would last a long time. Some reports suggest 10, 20, even 30 years.”

*

Before pre-packaging women used to get a big hunk of suet from the butcher, then spend all day melting it down. Rendering it. The clarified lard is separated and used for cooking. The best, flakiest pie crusts are made with lard. Then they started making it on an industrial scale. Crisco in a can that was stored on the shelf.

*
Those five meals a day are small, as you can imagine. The key for Sears was the chemical reaction of protein, carbs and fat in the proper proportions, in relation to one another. In the proper proportions and amounts, at regular intervals so that the body does not begin to prepare for starvation by storing fat, none of the food eaten gets stored. A key element is a bit of activity for large muscle groups, such as walking, biking, and deep breathing.

Fasting is ok because of ketosis, and that takes two or three days to kick in, and it won’t kick in if you nibble calories during the fast. If you nibble while fasting the body will nibble muscle and leave the fat. After three days, maybe two, ketosis starts and hunger pains fade because now the body is eating stored fat. You know the body is in ketosis because you start to smell funny. It’s a unique smell, rather sharp. I’ve smelled it on my own bed sheets at times, and my sons’ sheets and clothing when they were at home. As teens they grew so fast and were so busy away from food, ketosis was in the air.

The great thing about fasting is how it purifies the body, while making the energy that was being used for digestion available for other activities, such as mental activities. It's a reset for chemical reactions, it consumes impurities.

None of the books I list are faddish; they are based on the latest research.

Neither was Sears, who I think did some of that research.

[Sculptor]

Sounds interesting. How does it stay preserved?

https://savoringthepast.net/2021/11/25/pemmican/

“Pemmican, produced and stored in this fashion, would last a long time. Some reports suggest 10, 20, even 30 years.”

*

Before pre-packaging women used to get a big hunk of suet from the butcher, then spend all day melting it down. Rendering it. The clarified lard is separated and used for cooking. The best, flakiest pie crusts are made with lard. Then they started making it on an industrial scale. Crisco in a can that was stored on the shelf.

There is a couple of things wrong with this report.
Tallow is the fat of cattle, whilst lard is the fat of pigs.
Crisco is adapted machine oil sold to gullible fools as trans-saturated "vegetable oil".

*
Those five meals a day are small, as you can imagine.
The key for Sears was the chemical reaction of protein, carbs and fat in the proper proportions, in relation to one another. In the proper proportions and amounts, at regular intervals so that the body does not begin to prepare for starvation by storing fat, none of the food eaten gets stored. A key element is a bit of activity for large muscle groups, such as walking, biking, and deep breathing.

Fasting is ok because of ketosis, and that takes two or three days to kick in, and it won’t kick in if you nibble calories during the fast. If you nibble while fasting the body will nibble muscle and leave the fat. After three days, maybe two, ketosis starts and hunger pains fade because now the body is eating stored fat. You know the body is in ketosis because you start to smell funny. It’s a unique smell, rather sharp. I’ve smelled it on my own bed sheets at times, and my sons’ sheets and clothing when they were at home. As teens they grew so fast and were so busy away from food, ketosis was in the air.

The great thing about fasting is how it purifies the body, while making the energy that was being used for digestion available for other activities, such as mental activities. It's a reset for chemical reactions, it consumes impurities.

None of the books I list are faddish; they are based on the latest research.

Neither was Sears, who I think did some of that research.

Pemmican looks a bit like corned beef. But with the fruit; a cross between corned beef and mincemeat (as in mince pies) which as you may know was originally made with ground beef and suet (the fat from the kidneys of cattle).