Evolution and free will

[bahman]

Dear bahman,

I find it both possible and probable that life be determined, through an evolutionary process, to acquire “free will” and that what is an illusion is that this be a paradox.


Humbly,
Hermit

I don't believe in paradox but our ignorance to explain a subject matter well.

[Y]
Why is there no like-button on this sight?

Thanks.

[Belinda]

That does not answer my question. If future events are determined then there is no need for having the feeling of free will. Moreover, given the fact that the knowledge of future events is not known how a deterministic system can choose one option over others?

There is need for the feeling of free will , because men must make choices ;there is no alternative to making decisions if you want to remain alive.
It's not known what the future will be. We guess and fear.

But a feeling of free will cannot do anything unless it has a causal effect, in another word free will has to be real.

Not ontic and absolute free will, but the feeling of free will is real. It's a real feeling, as you and I can attest to.This feeling affects cerebral choices in the sense that its opposite, powerlessness, would render us ineffectual and we would die.

God is a deterministic idea that is punitive or consoling according to the sort of God you hold to.

Deterministic idea? What does that even mean?

The claim that God is a deterministic idea means that God is the uncaused cause of all events bar none. This is what is meant by the metaphor of God as the ground of being.

[bahman]

There is need for the feeling of free will , because men must make choices ;there is no alternative to making decisions if you want to remain alive.
It's not known what the future will be. We guess and fear.

But a feeling of free will cannot do anything unless it has a causal effect, in another word free will has to be real.

Not ontic and absolute free will, but the feeling of free will is real. It's a real feeling, as you and I can attest to.This feeling affects cerebral choices in the sense that its opposite, powerlessness, would render us ineffectual and we would die.

God is a deterministic idea that is punitive or consoling according to the sort of God you hold to.

Deterministic idea? What does that even mean?

The claim that God is a deterministic idea means that God is the uncaused cause of all events bar none. This is what is meant by the metaphor of God as the ground of being.

The uncaused cause is a being.

[Age]

Why does evolution grant such a feeling, having free will, if it is an illusion? Free will is absolutely unnecessary in a deterministic world so why should we have it? No need to say that our world is not always deterministic because of the existence of options.

Dear bahman,

I find it both possible and probable that life be determined, through an evolutionary process, to acquire “free will” and that what is an illusion is that this be a paradox.


Humbly,
Hermit

I don't believe in paradox but our ignorance to explain a subject matter well.

Of course 'ignorance', a lack of knowledge, helps in not being able to explain a subject matter well. This can be CLEARLY SEEN here in this forum, as well as throughout human history. But when a subject matter is being explained well, it is well that knowledge is being 'ignored', then that is when 'ignorance' prevails.

See, 'I' could explain to 'you' the subject matter of 'evolution' and 'free will' very well. But if one just keeps 'ignoring' that well explained subject matter, then whose fault is it for not understanding well?

Also, because EVERY one can learn and/or understand in different ways, learning how to explain any subject matter well is just a learning process, itself.

Now, if you REALLY did want to learn and understand the irrefutable answers to your questions here, then you FIRST need to learn, understand, and know what the words 'evolution' and 'free will' refer to, EXACTLY. But, because you already have a preconceived idea of what these words refer to, this is WHY you are asking the questions here. That is; you still do not yet fully understand the subject matter well enough at all.

And, if you would like the subject matter of 'evolution' and 'free will' explained to you 'well', then you just need to WANT to learn this subject matter, and just be OPEN to learning this subject matter.

So, if you would like to BEGIN, then just let me know, okay?

[Age]

I'm not a materialist and I believe that everything in the universe including our brains that create the feeling of having free will is deterministic...

Why the evolution of the experience creates this feeling of free will?

Why the evolution of the experience creates suffering?

Why the evolution of the experience creates ignorance?

Why the evolution of the experience creates fear?

Why the evolution of the experience creates hungry?

All that manifestations are useless.

Are you agree with me that all that diferents manifestations are in the same way useless?

I disagree. We are witnessing that free will, suffering, fear, etc. have a causal effect on us and the environment.

Every manifestation has a causal effect. So?

I said that all that diferents kind of manifestation are in the same grade of useless.

I mean, is the same question to ask "Why free will?" or "Why ignorance" or "Why fear" or "Why hungry"?

Why 'hungry' is so the physical body will not die from starvation.

Why 'fear' is so one remains alert, in order to stay alive.

Why 'ignorance' is because one just naturally lacks knowledge or information.

Why 'free will' is so that one can change things.

And I want to know if you agree with that. I want to know if you see that there is the same "problem" with all that diferents kind of manifestation, and therefore there is nothing special with "free will".


You want to learn or you just want to say what you want and nothing more?

"bahman" comes to this forum for the latter.

I want to know because I am new in this forum but I read your comments with others users and you seems to be more like a young thinker.

[Belinda]

But a feeling of free will cannot do anything unless it has a causal effect, in another word free will has to be real.

Not ontic and absolute free will, but the feeling of free will is real. It's a real feeling, as you and I can attest to.This feeling affects cerebral choices in the sense that its opposite, powerlessness, would render us ineffectual and we would die.


Deterministic idea? What does that even mean?

The claim that God is a deterministic idea means that God is the uncaused cause of all events bar none. This is what is meant by the metaphor of God as the ground of being.

The uncaused cause is a being.

The uncaused cause is not "a being" like a being among other beings. The uncaused cause is being itself.

[popeye1945]

The fact that all creatures are reactionary in nature is in direct opposition to the idea of free will. One can choose among choices how one will react to one's environment but one cannot not react, for even a considered inaction is a reaction to the environment. The environment is cause to all reactionary organisms, just as their reactions cause to the outer world and its fellows.

[Age]

The fact that all creatures are reactionary in nature is in direct opposition to the idea of free will.

WHY?

What is the EXACT 'idea' of 'free will's, to you?

One can choose among choices how one will react to one's environment but one cannot not react, for even a considered inaction is a reaction to the environment. The environment is cause to all reactionary organisms, just as their reactions cause to the outer world and its fellows.

And what EXACTLY is the point, which you would like to make here?

[Pattern-chaser]

Why does evolution grant such a feeling, having free will, if it is an illusion?

Evolution is a passive and mindless process, without volition, or the ability to "grant" anything. Also, it seems to me there is a huge abstract gap between evolution and free will, to the extent that it's difficult to see any clear connection between them.

Free will is absolutely unnecessary in a deterministic world so why should we have it? No need to say that our world is not always deterministic because of the existence of options.

OK, then I won't. If we have free will, then it doesn't matter if you think it "unnecessary", does it? But you ask anyway, "why should we have it?"

The trouble with "why" questions is that they can only be answered if their context is completely known and understood. Completely. If the context is fully known and understood, then the answer to the "why" question is obvious; it follows directly from the question and its context.

But your question contains quite a few unknowns and assumptions. Do we have it (free will)? What is it? I.e. what is it that "free will" gives us freedom to do, and what are we not free to do, even if we do have free will? Those will do to be going on with...

[popeye1945]

The fact that all creatures are reactionary is in direct opposition to the idea of free will.

WHY?

What is the EXACT 'idea' of 'free will, to you?

One can choose among choices how one will react to one's environment but one cannot not react, for even considered inaction is a reaction to the environment. The environment is cause to all reactionary organisms, just as their reactions cause to the outer world and its fellows.

And what EXACTLY is the point, which you would like to make here?

Age,

As already stated, if all organisms are reactive creatures, that trashes the idea of free will. Free will infers human action, and there is no such thing as human action, there is but human reaction. If an organism must be motivated the very term motivation spells reaction. One is always in reaction to the larger reality of the physical environment and biological evolution is possible by the fact that all organisms are reactive creatures.
Free will to me infers unmotivated cause or human action which is quite impossible, the environment is the cause and organisms are reactionary to that cause, thus, no free will. To many people when puzzled at the actions of their fellows seem to think their actions came out of nowhere, rather than asking themselves what is that individual reacting to.

[CHNOPS]

I think "Age" and "bahman" are people who stop learning.

I see too much ego in theirs comments that make me dont answer.

[Pattern-chaser]

[Posted in response to Age]

As already stated, if all organisms are reactive creatures, that trashes the idea of free will. Free will infers human action, and there is no such thing as human action, there is but human reaction. If an organism must be motivated, the very term motivation spells reaction. One is always in reaction to the larger reality of the physical environment, and biological evolution is possible by the fact that all organisms are reactive creatures.
Free will to me infers unmotivated cause or human action which is quite impossible, the environment is the cause and organisms are reactionary to that cause, thus, no free will. Too many people when puzzled at the actions of their fellows seem to think their actions came out of nowhere, rather than asking themselves what is that individual reacting to.

Taking a broad view, your words suggest a determined universe. In that sense, your universe is static, in the sense that there is never any action, never anything unexpected or unplanned. It is all predicted and predictable. The creation of the universe, however that came about, is the Original Cause. All subsequent events follow unavoidably from this Cause. Is that a reasonable interpretation of your words, and your position?

[Pattern-chaser]

I see too much ego in theirs comments that make me dont answer.

Yes, I see ego, anger, contempt and ill-will, personal insults, and so on. More to the point, I see no philosophy. I'm puzzled that the moderators here don't, er, moderate such behaviour. Does this forum even have (active) moderators?

[Sculptor]

I see too much ego in theirs comments that make me dont answer.

Yes, I see ego, anger, contempt and ill-will, personal insults, and so on. More to the point, I see no philosophy. I'm puzzled that the moderators here don't, er, moderate such behaviour. Does this forum even have (active) moderators?

Yes there is moderation.
But you will find it quite open minded.
Death threats are out!
Anger and contempt is regarded as normal cut and thrust.

[Sculptor]

I think "Age" and "bahman" are people who stop learning.

I see too much ego in theirs comments that make me dont answer.

In my experience Age does not read, or cannot read what he does not like to hear.
Bahman has zero ability to counter, but he does read what you write, but may fail to understand some points.