"First of all it is necessary to understand that a Christian is not a man who calls himself a Christian or whom others call a Christian. A Christian is one who lives in accordance with Christ's precepts.attofishpi wrote: ↑Thu Aug 18, 2022 4:57 amYour quote from Gurdjieff starts of with contradictions, and then spouts waffle of absurdity. With regards to what does it mean 'to be'? Who cares with such a stunted statement?Nick_A wrote: ↑Thu Aug 18, 2022 2:56 am Gurdjieff describes what a Christian is. He suggests it is possible to be less of a machine rather than a creature of reaction: an automaton.
What does it mean "To Be?" Doesn't it require first that a person be master of oneself to acquire a higher quality of consciousness?"First of all it is necessary to understand that a Christian is not a man who calls himself a Christian or whom others call a Christian. A Christian is one who lives in accordance with Christ's precepts. Such as we are we cannot be Christians. In order to be Christians we must be able 'to do.' We cannot do; with us everything 'happens.' Christ says: 'Love your enemies,' but how can we love our enemies when we cannot even love our friends? Sometimes 'it loves' and sometimes 'it does not love.' Such as we are we cannot even really desire to be Christians because, again, sometimes 'it desires' and sometimes 'it does not desire.' And one and the same thing cannot be desired for long, because suddenly, instead of desiring to be a Christian, a man remembers a very good but very expensive carpet that he has seen in a shop. And instead of wishing to be a Christian he begins to think how he can manage to buy this carpet, forgetting all about Christianity. Or if somebody else does not believe what a wonderful Christian he is, he will be ready to eat him alive or to roast him on hot coals. In order to be a good Christian one must be. To be means to be master of oneself. If a man is not his own master he has nothing and can have nothing. And he cannot be a Christian. He is simply a machine, an automaton. A machine cannot be a Christian. Think for yourselves, is it possible for a motorcar or a typewriter or a gramophone to be Christian? They are simply things which are controlled by chance. They are not responsible. They are machines. To be a Christian means to be responsible. Responsibility comes later when a man even partially ceases to be a machine, and begins in fact, and not only in words, to desire to be a Christian."
What does it mean 'to be Christian'? ..well, that statement is worthy of query and I suppose is what this entire thread ultimately is about. (the answer is so simple one as myself is wondering Y this thread has spewed so much shite for so long on the subject)
Is this a contradiction? You question what "TO BE" means. Yet do you question what it means to be a doctor or a lawyer? No You would assert cultural standard which define what they are. But what does it mean to be Christian gives you trouble. The reason seems to be that you don't distinguish between knowledge and understanding. A person can have complete knowledge of all the rules of chess but yet cannot play the game and lose quickly? Why? They have knowledge but lack understanding. They have gone beyond the limitations of culturally acquired classification to define meaning or what it means "TO BE."
Christianity a opposed to man made Christendom is like this. Some claim to know rules. They have knowledge but lack understanding. As such, they can strive "TO BE" Christian but cannot. They lack understanding. Have you ever pondered the difference between knowledge and understanding?