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attofishpi
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Re: Christianity

Post by attofishpi »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 2:37 pm
attofishpi wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 1:39 pmI note you did omit the actual key from your quote of my statement, the first line, the path that is the only one worth.Y to make that leap of faith...no matter.
Oh, you mean this?
Well, like Christ apparently said: To know God is through me (belief in).
Well, yes, isn't this entire thread supposed to be about this man?

Although, as I have said many times and appears to be exemplified by conversations within this thread:

One cannot see Christ for the churches.
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Re: Christianity

Post by Belinda »

attofishpi wrote: Sat Jun 18, 2022 1:08 am
Alexis Jacobi wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 2:37 pm
attofishpi wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 1:39 pmI note you did omit the actual key from your quote of my statement, the first line, the path that is the only one worth.Y to make that leap of faith...no matter.
Oh, you mean this?
Well, like Christ apparently said: To know God is through me (belief in).
Well, yes, isn't this entire thread supposed to be about this man?

Although, as I have said many times and appears to be exemplified by conversations within this thread:

One cannot see Christ for the churches.
Attofishpi, we all know "the churches" not only teach but also conceal and distort. There is one denomination that tries to leave churches out of the good life , the Society of Friends or Quakers.
The orthodox and generally received explanation of Christ is that God intervened to send Jesus to show us what the Good amounts to in actually lived lives. You may believe God did it, or you may believe JC was a happy accident of history but it would be hard to believe JC and his wisdom is not exemplary.
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Re: Christianity

Post by Nick_A »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 3:23 pm
Nick_A wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 7:31 pmYou are attracted to how interpretations of Christianity can improve the social order. I am attracted to how Christianity can serve for the conscious evolution of Man's being. You seem attracted to how the social order within Plato's cave can improve by beliefs while I believe the individual can struggle for inner unity by efforts to escape the Cave. Belief or understanding with the whole of oneself?
That might be one way of putting it. Yet I would have to say now and at this point that my interest in Christianity had and perhaps has an *inauthentic* aspect. So I have to start right at the beginning or from the first obvious point, and that is to say that I believe that I do understand 'spirituality', because it is with spirituality and not religion with which I first engaged, but that classical religion and certainly *organized religion* are foreign to my nature. Christianity as a religious and cultural form was foreign to my experience. So why did I take it up? (if it could be said that I did take it up).

The answer is that I sought, and still seek, a 'solid metaphysical platform' upon which to construct a 'proper conservatism'. To put it like this implies this perception and assessment: the *world* spins out of control. Politically, socially, culturally, and because the traditional groundings have been undermined, whole arrays of other forces and powers dominate man. Be they economic, or technological-mechanistic (the machine), or be they propagandistic in the sense of advertising-ideological; or be they *spectacle* in the Debord sense of the term [Debord defines the spectacle as the “autocratic reign of the market economy.” Though the term “mass media” is often used to describe the spectacle's form, Debord derides its neutrality]: it seems that the reigning power is in these things, not in 'the mind of man' and certainly not from 'the intellect of man'.

Without a solid grounding in metaphysical principles, man -- people -- spin-out into all sorts of manifestations that express the loss of grounding. I think I see the gender dysphoria as a manifestation of personal and social madness (just one example). I said before that when one deals with children in a day-care setting you must establish boundaries and limits within which the kids feel safe and 'contained'. When their containers are shattered (when their horizons are erased) they become insecure, and when insecure they act out. I suppose that at that point the notion of 'possession' by unconscious forces and powers makes a good deal of sense.

So when I have expressed something like enthusiasm for 'renovation' and 'renewal' through my somewhat romanticized focus on 'Europe' I am responding within a rather traditional branch of European ideation that has to do with the decline of Europe -- Spengler, Richard Weaver and a dozen others. It is a classic, anguished perception is it not? If I were to use your descriptive language I might say that 'the beast' has escaped his cage and freely roams about. I see the beast as unbridled, ignorant appetite and quest for power; the assertion of the will of this sort of inferior man (to use a Chinese description and as opposed to the Confucian superior man).

Reading Richard Weaver had a strong effect on me. He is not a Christian, I do not think, and he is a Platonist. Yet within Christian cultural currents his notion of 'deviation' from and an abandonment of 'transcendentals' became a guiding idea in the mid-20th century in conservative thought:
Like Macbeth, Western man made an evil decision, which has become the efficient and final cause of other evil decisions. Have we forgotten our encounter with the witches on the heath? It occurred in the late fourteenth century, and what the witches said to the protagonist of this drama was that man could realize himself more fully if he would only abandon his belief in the existence of transcendentals. The powers of darkness were working subtly, as always, and they couched this proposition in the seemingly innocent form of an attack upon universals. The defeat of logical realism in the great medieval debate was the crucial event in the history of Western culture; from this flowed those acts which issue now in modern decadence.
This idea can be received and adapted to a wide range of perspectives.

So if it is true that "The defeat of logical realism in the great medieval debate was the crucial event in the history of Western culture; from this flowed those acts which issue now in modern decadence" then one can say that one's work is cut out for one: to rediscover and reinvigorate the realistic appreciation of those transcendentals.

One could immediately turn to the traditional Catholic forms because in every symbol, in every gesture, in every proceeding and procedure, those 'transcendentals' show themselves.

However, it should be noted that the Catholic and the Christian forms were impositions quite literally forced on northern Europe in the 8th century through imperial conquest. So there is a tremendous wound or conflict in all of this. And when St. Boniface axed the sacred pillar at Irminsul in approximately AD 750 -- sacred to the Saxons and to their gods Thor or Wotan -- it is there and at that time and through that act that Yggdrasil was chopped down to a stump. But Yggdrasil is also a transcendental concept and 'picture'!

Image
The answer is that I sought, and still seek, a 'solid metaphysical platform' upon which to construct a 'proper conservatism'. To put it like this implies this perception and assessment: the *world* spins out of control. Politically, socially, culturally, and because the traditional groundings have been undermined, whole arrays of other forces and powers dominate man. Be they economic, or technological-mechanistic (the machine), or be they propagandistic in the sense of advertising-ideological; or be they *spectacle* in the Debord sense of the term [Debord defines the spectacle as the “autocratic reign of the market economy.” Though the term “mass media” is often used to describe the spectacle's form, Debord derides its neutrality]: it seems that the reigning power is in these things, not in 'the mind of man' and certainly not from 'the intellect of man'.


Socialism or outer Christianity tells society what to do. Inner Christianity and impartial contemplation invite us to remember what is greater than ourselves. Proper conservatism needs a quality of ideas being forgotten. Can they come back? I believe only for a few.

Jacob Needleman in his book "The American Soul" describes the problem.
Our world, so we see and hear on all sides, is drowning in materialism, commercialism, consumerism. But the problem is not really there. What we ordinarily speak of as materialism is a result, not a cause. The root of materialism is a poverty of ideas about the inner and outer world. Less and less does our contemporary culture have, or even seek, commerce with great ideas, and it is the lack that is weakening the human spirit. This is the essence of materialism. Materialism is a disease of the mind starved for ideas.

Throughout history ideas of a certain kind have been disseminated into the life of humanity in order to help human beings understand and feel the possibility of the deep inner change that would enable them to serve the purpose for which they were created, namely, to act in the world as conscious individual instruments of God, and the ultimate principle of reality and value. Ideas of this kind are formulated in order to have a specific range of action on the human psych: to touch the heart as well as the intellect; to shock us into questioning our present understanding; to point us to the greatness around us in nature and the universe, and the potential greatness slumbering within ourselves; to open our eyes to the real needs of our neighbor; to confront us with our own profound ignorance and our criminal fears and egoism; to show us that we are not here for ourselves alone, but as necessary particles of divine love.

These are the contours of the ancient wisdom, considered as ideas embodied in religious and philosophical doctrines, works of sacred art, literature and music and, in a very fundamental way, an indication of practical methods by which a man or woman can work, as is said, to become what he or she really is. Without feeling the full range of such ideas, or sensing even a modest, but pure, trace of them, we are bound to turn for meaning.
Modern cultural ideas are directed at motivating the outer man or ones personality. Conservatism to function as it should requires awakening the inner man. This requires ideas of a certain quality. Society rejects them. If this is true, what can be done to help the individual in their search to experience truth and leaving the cave?

Weil lamented that education had become no more than "an instrument manipulated by teachers for manufacturing more teachers, who in their turn will manufacture more teachers." rather than a guide to getting out of the cave.

The metaphysical platform begins with admitting the hypocrisy of the human condition rather than glorifying it leading to might makes right. I can't see it happening. First society must hit bottom before it can learn by experience. Not a pleasant perspective
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attofishpi
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Re: Christianity

Post by attofishpi »

Belinda wrote: Sat Jun 18, 2022 9:38 am
attofishpi wrote: Sat Jun 18, 2022 1:08 am
Alexis Jacobi wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 2:37 pm
Oh, you mean this?
Well, yes, isn't this entire thread supposed to be about this man?

Although, as I have said many times and appears to be exemplified by conversations within this thread:

One cannot see Christ for the churches.
Attofishpi, we all know "the churches" not only teach but also conceal and distort. There is one denomination that tries to leave churches out of the good life , the Society of Friends or Quakers.
The orthodox and generally received explanation of Christ is that God intervened to send Jesus to show us what the Good amounts to in actually lived lives. You may believe God did it, or you may believe JC was a happy accident of history but it would be hard to believe JC and his wisdom is not exemplary.
I know "God did it" to the same extent that I know God did U. (and me)

I'm still not satisfied with your answer regarding your own stance pertaining to such things, I don't want to sound arrogant or condescending, I just want to turn over another rock on the beach and actually see what's there.

Belinda wrote:I believe in certain values that transcend all attempts at definition: good, truth, beauty.
Fine.

Belinda wrote:If these are God then I believe in God.
I'd say yes, these are attributes but they amount to aesthetics, don't you think you need to ascribe more to state x IS God? For example, God has wrath that I would insist people steer clear of...if you believed such a thing, would you still concede that U believe in GOD?

Belinda wrote:I do not believe there is such a thing as a SUPERNATURAL PERSON.
Neither do I. In fact, it wasn't Christ that turned water into wine, it was God. (via God being pan)

Belinda wrote:I do believe in and trust in good, truth, beauty.
I don't trust, unless truth and beauty come from someone that is good.

Belinda wrote:Good, truth, beauty are not all-powerful and it's our responsibility to create them or discover them in the world.
It then follows that you were limiting God by your limited version of your definition of God.
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: Christianity

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

Setting the Scene
A hilly plateau. Darkness, clouds, the wind blows furiously.
Gruesome witches and deformèd devils surround a sleeping peasant lad.
Fiery serpents appear on farther hills!
The Dark Sabbath begins and continues all the night-long.
Then the bells of morning Matins ring.
Satan is vanquished and vanishes.
The lad awakens as the Sun rises.
Image

Ecoutez

Dubious wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 8:36 pm...but never mind. These conversations are so useless...and boring.
This affected me deeply! [::: snif, sob :::] So I decided to mend my ways by becoming far more entertaining. So let's get the ball rolling with today's

EnTeRtAinMenT . . .

A couple of notes for this useless conversation that no one cares about and which has no readership and may be simply a conversation I am having with the denizens in my own mind (which when you think about it is more or less our condition, no?)

Be that as it may: Avanti!

The Facts

For the Occident, in the Occident, for reasons that can be traced and known, religion and the religious impulse hit a brick wall. If Christianity was, in a manner of speaking, the ghost in the machine, meaning the motive spirit and impetus through which the edifice of the Occident was created, that ghostly spirit dissipated -- or more properly began a long, slow, strange and painful death. Sometimes fully disappearing, sometimes disappearing partially, fading in, fading out, nevertheless the long-range trajectory was toward fading away. The truth is that it takes a story-teller -- a Kafka -- to concoct the sort of imagery of all that the dying god does in his agony.

Now, what happened to the thoughtful class of persons who, substantially, saw all this first and reacted to it? I will name just the typical names: Nietzsche, Freud, Marx, Jung, just to give it some *context* (hello there Mr Can). Putting Marx aside for a moment let me focus on the others, but also speak a bit about the Common Man. If you suddenly lose your sense of forward motion, and in this sense if a Belief in God in a full metaphysical sense gives you a forward motion (in ethics, culture, in your building projects on Earth, and your eventual translation to 'the fruitful fields of Heaven), but then hits the Brick Wall I refer to, what will happen to you? That is you as a being in motion and with a trajectory?

The metaphor implies 'going splat', right? It implies having your forward motion stopped abruptly. What will happen to you and what will you do? Well, I think the answer is you will turn inward. You will be thrown back into your own self. If the External God disappeared (is erased or 'died' if you will) then it all turns back to you. That is, you will begin to see yourself as The Projector. You will have no choice but to see yourself as the author & director of the entire show. Here, I will insert Nick's favorite metaphor: Plato's Cave. That's you behind you projecting stuff onto the screen of perception's Inner Content! And you are suddenly responsible for what you are seeing and also believing to be Absolutely True.

But if you follow what I am getting at then let me introduce another aspect or element of what happens when the forward path is thwarted: You become desperate. I give desperation a special meaning of course. It is a general state that people come into because, consciously of unconsciously, they sense that the forward path is blocked. Desperation and reaction go together. See, you cannot stop going forward. Because life is all about forward movement. All life is impelled and propelled forward. If you cannot *embrace life* in this sense you are f*^%cked.

Here I will have to mention that when clear, agreed-on, understood, logical, forward motion is thwarted a thousand alternative paths are opened. They become inevitable. You have to turn to something, right? You have to have a way to channel your energies. So my first suggestion is that, for intellectual Europe, the inward turn and naturally the psychological and the therapeutic became necessary reactive movements.

So I will (with full consciousness of pretention) mention here two books I am working through. One, The Saxon Savior: The Germanic Transformation of the Gospel in the Ninth-Century Heliand (G. Ronald Murphy, SJ) which is a sort of translation of the Gospels into terms that could be understood and accepted by those primitive, warrior-Saxons who refused for so long to 'bend a knee' before the Mediterranean cross.

Jesus Christ, the picture of Christ, the meaning of Chist, had to be described in terms that this Saxon could understand and relate to. So Jesus Christ was presented as a Noble Lord, a Great Ruler, a Great Warrior (against the 'darkness of this world') that a man could declare allegiance to and give his whole self over to (knowing it was metaphysically right). The conversion of the Northern Tribes, and the Northern Man, is pretty essential to understand since, as we are seeing and I am proposing, what we are dealing with is deconversion. There was conversion -- and a thousand years of forward-motion, building and constructing, then a Wall was hit, and now there is an on-going process of DECONVERSION.

What? Dubious? Bored to tears again are you? Hmmmm. An intermission? OK! I can adapt in order to hold my audience!

Deconversion is an intricate process. It does not take place merely in a moment of a man's life but goes on over various generations. So what formerly stood and existed as solidities that could be counted on, those solidities vanished, they were erased, or they *died*. But be not deceived! or to put it in another way do not remove your eyes from the enactment taking place right before you and in you! If there is a solidity that is removed, it really must be replaced. So here the notion of substitution must be brought out.
[Middle English, from Old French substitut, from Latin substitūtus, past participle of substituere, to substitute : sub-, in place of; see sub- + statuere, to cause to stand; see stā- in Indo-European roots.]
Is all of this not at least somewhat obvious? Does everything have to be spelled out down to the last detail? If you think these things through they will become quite plain and evident. Play with it as you will and as you can. If God no longer 'stands' then God will have to be replaced and substituted. If the forward motion is arrested, then the inner motion, the turn inward, the being turned back onto oneself, becomes necessary.

Now the second book is The Triumph of the Therapeutic: Uses of Faith After Freud (Phillip Rieff).

Image
The dissolution of a unitary system of common belief, accompanied, as it must be, by a certain disorganization of personality, may have run its course.
Oh?! What then!?!
The central symbolism of personal and corporate experience seems to me well on its way to being differently organized, with several systems of belief competing for primacy in the task of organizing personality in the West.
Suite à la prochain mes enfants!

Meantime . . .
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: Christianity

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

| error |
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: Sun Jun 19, 2022 1:28 pm If you suddenly lose your sense of forward motion, and in this sense if a Belief in God in a full metaphysical sense gives you a forward motion (in ethics, culture, in your building projects on Earth, and your eventual translation to 'the fruitful fields of Heaven), but then hits the Brick Wall I refer to, what will happen to you? That is you as a being in motion and with a trajectory?

The metaphor implies 'going splat', right? It implies having your forward motion stopped abruptly.
This isn't a bad observation for nominalists. It's actually a very good one, and apt, I would say.

Lewis refers to this phenomenon as "the religion of all good men," meaning, "the belief that all men are good, that all good men are nominally 'Christian' and that all one has to do to convince oneself that one is "good' is to be civlilized, part of the culture, and nominally "Christian."

This was descriptive of the kind of pseudo-Christianity in Lewis's England. There's little reason to think it was better elsewhere, though the proportion of sincere belief may have been as good in places like America. In any case, what's clear is that there were two types of people operating under the banner "Christian" those who really were, and those who only nominally were. It does not take any genuis to see that the same phenomenon could be described in any religious or ideological camp: there are always those who believe in a firmly, and those who believe in only a superficial sense. But in Christianity's case, the division is exacerbated all the more between the start division between the two. In other ideologies, there may be more of a gradient. Still, the two kinds exist everywhere.

I don't disagree that it was that sort of nominalism that gave impetus to Western culture, or that the loss of it made Western civilization "go splat," in a manner of speaking: I simply point out that nothing in that "religion of all good men" was actually Christian at all. Thus, those who "lost their faith" in that moment were mere nominalists, cultural pseudo-Christians with no deep faith at all.

And it's on that point you and I differ. For you, there is but one type of actual "Christian," and that is the nominal kind. You accept "the religion of all good men" at face value, and believe that every person who says "I am Christian" genuinely is, and is that in a way that is much deeper than cultural or nominal. In contrast, I know both rationally and historically, as well as personally, that that is just not so. So at that moment, we part company.
What will happen to you and what will you do? Well, I think the answer is you will turn inward. You will be thrown back into your own self. If the External God disappeared (is erased or 'died' if you will) then it all turns back to you. That is, you will begin to see yourself as The Projector. You will have no choice but to see yourself as the author & director of the entire show.
Right!

Which is EXACTLY what NIetzsche did. He concluded that "God' had always been nothing more than a projection of mankind's own inner needs and desires, the need for which had been eliminated by the burgeoning modern world. Freud, Jung et all joined him in this. And the modern world made it seem all the more plausible, since the stars were wiped out by city lights, our eyes were dazzled with the new achievements of material science, we no longer had need of divine help (we began to think) because we had medicine, welfare programs, government interventions...and so on. Civilization started to look like the most important, biggest and most self-sufficient thing in the universe, and consequently, the felt need for appeal to God receded from the popular imagination. Fair enough.

But nothing had actually changed. That escaped popular notice. If God was there, He was still there; if He was not, He had never been. The mere human concept of God was the least important feature of the whole thing...as well as the most difficult to explain in evolutionary terms: for who needs a "God" concept when everything gets better by itself? Can we think that popular delusions are evolutionarily adaptive? And what mechanism, created by an indifferent cosmos, would spontaneously generate evolutionarily-helpful delusions for us?
But if you follow what I am getting at then let me introduce another aspect or element of what happens when the forward path is thwarted: You become desperate. I give desperation a special meaning of course. It is a general state that people come into because, consciously of unconsciously, they sense that the forward path is blocked. Desperation and reaction go together. See, you cannot stop going forward. Because life is all about forward movement. All life is impelled and propelled forward. If you cannot *embrace life* in this sense you are f*^%cked.

Here I will have to mention that when clear, agreed-on, understood, logical, forward motion is thwarted a thousand alternative paths are opened. They become inevitable. You have to turn to something, right? You have to have a way to channel your energies. So my first suggestion is that, for intellectual Europe, the inward turn and naturally the psychological and the therapeutic became necessary reactive movements.
Perhaps so, for them. But not for anybody who didn't lose their faith on such superficial grounds, obviously. For those who had a better-grounded faith, the modern turn away from God scarcely represented any unexpected thing, and they felt no obligation to follow their compatriots in their personal existential crises.

Just because your neighbour loses his way does not mean you have to.
One, The Saxon Savior: The Germanic Transformation of the Gospel in the Ninth-Century Heliand (G. Ronald Murphy, SJ)
This book obviously conflates "Catholic" with "Christian," as if the two have to follow the same paths. Obviously, that's not the case.
Now the second book is The Triumph of the Therapeutic: Uses of Faith After Freud (Phillip Rieff).
Well, at least you're reading some of the right books.

Rieff is good on this. And you could argue that the modern, nominalist, cultural-'Christian' world reoriented their anxieties in the inward search.

In this connection, take a look at a picture of the city hall in Toronto, Canada. It's a "cracked pillar," the message of which is supposed to be something like, "In the ancient world, we looked outside; now, we moderns look inside mankind, where the real adventure is to be found." (See bottom.)
The central symbolism of personal and corporate experience seems to me well on its way to being differently organized, with several systems of belief competing for primacy in the task of organizing personality in the West.
You mean,

"...for the world, which seems
To lie before us like a land of dreams,
So various, so beautiful, so new,
Hath really neither joy, nor love, nor light,
Nor certitude, nor peace, nor help for pain;
And we are here as on a darkling plain
Swept with confused alarms of struggle and flight,
Where ignorant armies clash by night."


--- Matthew Arnold, Dover Beach.
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Belinda
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Re: Christianity

Post by Belinda »

attofishpi wrote: Sun Jun 19, 2022 12:13 pm
Belinda wrote: Sat Jun 18, 2022 9:38 am
attofishpi wrote: Sat Jun 18, 2022 1:08 am

Well, yes, isn't this entire thread supposed to be about this man?

Although, as I have said many times and appears to be exemplified by conversations within this thread:

One cannot see Christ for the churches.
Attofishpi, we all know "the churches" not only teach but also conceal and distort. There is one denomination that tries to leave churches out of the good life , the Society of Friends or Quakers.
The orthodox and generally received explanation of Christ is that God intervened to send Jesus to show us what the Good amounts to in actually lived lives. You may believe God did it, or you may believe JC was a happy accident of history but it would be hard to believe JC and his wisdom is not exemplary.
I know "God did it" to the same extent that I know God did U. (and me)

I'm still not satisfied with your answer regarding your own stance pertaining to such things, I don't want to sound arrogant or condescending, I just want to turn over another rock on the beach and actually see what's there.

Belinda wrote:I believe in certain values that transcend all attempts at definition: good, truth, beauty.
Fine.

Belinda wrote:If these are God then I believe in God.
I'd say yes, these are attributes but they amount to aesthetics, don't you think you need to ascribe more to state x IS God? For example, God has wrath that I would insist people steer clear of...if you believed such a thing, would you still concede that U believe in GOD?

Belinda wrote:I do not believe there is such a thing as a SUPERNATURAL PERSON.
Neither do I. In fact, it wasn't Christ that turned water into wine, it was God. (via God being pan)

Belinda wrote:I do believe in and trust in good, truth, beauty.
I don't trust, unless truth and beauty come from someone that is good.

Belinda wrote:Good, truth, beauty are not all-powerful and it's our responsibility to create them or discover them in the world.
It then follows that you were limiting God by your limited version of your definition of God.
I am not satisfied with my answer either but it's the best I can give you or myself.
Good, truth, and beauty are created by good people and good people also discover these in nature.
Nick_A
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Re: Christianity

Post by Nick_A »

A J wrote:

What? Dubious? Bored to tears again are you? Hmmmm. An intermission? OK! I can adapt in order to hold my audience!
Plato wrote: "philosophy is the love of wisdom and, more importantly, the philosopher is the friend or, better, lover of wisdom."
Now that man has become sophisticated, philosophy has been replaced by entertainment. Who needs wisdom anymore with such high quality entertainment available to enable self justification to replace the need for "objective meaning". Progress.
Dubious
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Re: Christianity

Post by Dubious »

Nick_A wrote: Sun Jun 19, 2022 8:04 pm A J wrote:

What? Dubious? Bored to tears again are you? Hmmmm. An intermission? OK! I can adapt in order to hold my audience!
Plato wrote: "philosophy is the love of wisdom and, more importantly, the philosopher is the friend or, better, lover of wisdom."
Now that man has become sophisticated, philosophy has been replaced by entertainment. Who needs wisdom anymore with such high quality entertainment available to enable self justification to replace the need for "objective meaning". Progress.
I agree completely! Let the games begin!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoX01v0RhpE
Dubious
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Re: Christianity

Post by Dubious »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: Sun Jun 19, 2022 1:28 pmWhat? Dubious? Bored to tears again are you? Hmmmm. An intermission? OK! I can adapt in order to hold my audience!
You mean your audience of 3 or 4? You admitted in some past post you learned a lot from IC, and I'm absolutely convinced that's true. Ever think it may be time to remove the cholesterol and get to the point sooner?
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Re: Christianity

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

Dubious wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 12:17 am
Alexis Jacobi wrote: Sun Jun 19, 2022 1:28 pmWhat? Dubious? Bored to tears again are you? Hmmmm. An intermission? OK! I can adapt in order to hold my audience!
You mean your audience of 3 or 4? You admitted in some past post you learned a lot from IC, and I'm absolutely convinced that's true. Ever think it may be time to remove the cholesterol and get to the point sooner?
The point. The point? Ah, the point!

You have missed the point. Neither you nor I know what the point must be. I challenge you to give it a shot. To what point does it all lead mein Freund?

I’ll take it in one dense paragraph.
Dubious
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Re: Christianity

Post by Dubious »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 12:35 am
Dubious wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 12:17 am
Alexis Jacobi wrote: Sun Jun 19, 2022 1:28 pmWhat? Dubious? Bored to tears again are you? Hmmmm. An intermission? OK! I can adapt in order to hold my audience!
You mean your audience of 3 or 4? You admitted in some past post you learned a lot from IC, and I'm absolutely convinced that's true. Ever think it may be time to remove the cholesterol and get to the point sooner?
The point. The point? Ah, the point!

You have missed the point. Neither you nor I know what the point must be. I challenge you to give it a shot. To what point does it all lead mein Freund?

I’ll take it in one dense paragraph.
If "Neither you nor I know what the point must be", how do you know I missed it...the point being that in making a point, right, wrong or inbetween, the point should be made succinctly. Give it a try!
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attofishpi
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Re: Christianity

Post by attofishpi »

Dubious wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 12:45 am
Alexis Jacobi wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 12:35 am
Dubious wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 12:17 am
You mean your audience of 3 or 4? You admitted in some past post you learned a lot from IC, and I'm absolutely convinced that's true. Ever think it may be time to remove the cholesterol and get to the point sooner?
The point. The point? Ah, the point!

You have missed the point. Neither you nor I know what the point must be. I challenge you to give it a shot. To what point does it all lead mein Freund?

I’ll take it in one dense paragraph.
If "Neither you nor I know what the point must be", how do you know I missed it...the point being that in making a point, right, wrong or inbetween, the point should be made succinctly. Give it a try!
Yep, I have to admit to being mostly bored as a plank through what appeared to be copious amounts of WAFFLE!

Alas, to answer the entire thread succinctly...

Fuck mans established 'Christian' churches and their versions of whatever they think the message of Christ was. Just pick up the gospels, read them, and work out for yourself what Christ was attempting to teach, and live and love according to those teachings...AND...be worth.Y HE did, what he did.
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henry quirk
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Re: Christianity

Post by henry quirk »

I have to admit to being mostly bored as a plank through what appeared to be copious amounts of WAFFLE!
I agree with the nutjob.
Alas, to answer the entire thread succinctly...

Just pick up the gospels, read them, and work out for yourself what Christ was attempting to teach, and live and love according to those teachings
That's what I said (upthread, at least once). I was ignored. Mebbe the nutjob will fare better.

Jefferson Bible, anyone?
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