bahman wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 3:48 pm
Dimebag wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 11:58 am
bahman wrote: ↑Thu May 19, 2022 9:51 pm
Yes, everything is minds and qualia. Minds being primary and qualia are due to minds.
It is a matter of fact. If there is a motion that is not due to my mind then it is due to another mind. There are motions that they are not due to me so there is at least one mind more.
What if instead if conceding to you that for any change to happen in an object a mind causes it, I say for any change in an object to be perceived, a mind must first perceive that object and any changes which the object goes through.
You want to say that a mind must CAUSE the change. I agree that for change to be observed, a mind must be present. But I don’t believe the mind caused that change. For change to be perceived, we have several interdependent criteria:
We need,
1. A mind independent object (otherwise it’s just a hallucination, that only you see).
Yes, that is qualia.
Dimebag wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 11:58 am
2. The mind independent object needs to have some EXTERNAL FORCE applied to it, I.e. Newton’s law.
What is an object and what is force?
Dimebag wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 11:58 am
3. The mind must have the ability to perceive that object, in this case, visually. The mind therefore needs eyes, and a functioning brain which interprets those sensory signals.
Mind does not need a sensory system in order to experience and cause change. In the case of humans, mind perceives what is constructed by brain.
Dimebag wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 11:58 am
4. The object needs to be illuminated by an external light source, for the eyes to detect the light from the object, I.e. the medium in which the eyes detect the object.
That is again for mind in the case of humans by which I mean the mind that perceives qualia that are caused by the brain.
Dimebag wrote: ↑Tue May 24, 2022 11:58 am
Without all of these criteria, a change in an object cannot be perceived.
Now, we could ask, how does the perceptual system detect changes in that object, and represent them to the consciousness. This is where the mind becomes a key player, in the
construction of the perception of change.
Mind directly experiences qualia and causes a change in it.
You think the mind CAUSES the change in the object. That means, you think mind is solely responsible for the changing of that object. In your view, is there any other existence to the object beyond the qualia which the mind perceives?
Do you think the mind directly receives the qualia which is the object itself, or do you think light bounces off something external to the mind, the eyes receive light and convert that into a representation of the thing “out there” which we then call “an object”.
Unless you think that there is nothing “out there” which the mind is representing, no actual object, but rather all there is is the map, no territory, then that cannot be the case. What you would be proposing is a kind of solipsism. But we also know you have already admitted there is more than one mind.
What I will admit to you is, it IS possible to have a completely idealist view even of an “external world”, but, that view seems to deny some obvious assumptions, such as:
* you are not the only mind
* there is a world external to you, from which you and your mind was formed
* something existed prior to any mind
What I will also admit is, the terminology “exist” is also dependent on witnessing minds, so the idea of a mind independent reality is difficult to discuss, BUT, we CAN extrapolate that one MUST have been the case for us to exist, i.e. minds emerging from non mind through evolution.