Christianity

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RCSaunders
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Re: Christianity

Post by RCSaunders »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 2:32 pm All you are doing -- I mean this very literally -- is employing some established argument-weapons that have been handed to you.
Really? Since I do not agree with what any philosopher says, reject all of the pseudo-science of psychology, and have no use for any so-called academic authority and reject all ideologies, exactly who do you suppose I learned my arguments from?

With rare exception, everyone on this forum, like you, disagrees with my views. The few individuals in history I have found with ideas similar to mine you probably have never heard of, and certainly will not have studied. Perhaps, before assuming you know what has influenced others thinking, you should know what their thinking is. It's why I posted my article, "What I Don't Believe," here on Philosophy Now so people like you could evade that mistake.
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: Christianity

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

Dubious wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 10:39 amThere are obviously still many like yourself, Nick and IC who need the balm of some sweet fiction to feel fulfilled and satisfied.
My suggestion is to see this type of statement -- the implication being that the wise & strong have weaned themselves from these childish needs -- as a form of shallow, vulgar propaganda. You will not find ideas behind these assertions but cheap, on-line *analysis*. As I said before this is crude Nietzscheanism slightly warned-over.

The real truth is that many important and thoughtful people -- some of the best minds of numerous generations -- have grappled far more extensively and far more productively with the question of 'loss of horizon' and loss of capacity to define, in acceptable, modern term, what the transcendental refer to. So to imply, as it is obviously implied! that such thinking is for intellectual or spiritual weaklings is nothing but silly argumentation. It has little weight. It is the stuff of vain polarization typical of Internet forums where such things are discussed.

However, it is definitely true nevertheless that there is such a thing as 'weak people' and 'weak malleable persons'. And there is no doubt that Mass Man can and does get caught up in very large machinations into which he gets subsumed. No matter what ideas are dealt with, that sort of man will generally deal with them superficially.

The assertion that you and those who think like you are ipso facto in some sort of superior realm of perception and look down on the weak ones who cling to 'outmoded beliefs' is itself a shallow and reductive manoeuvre. It does not reveal intellectual strength but, in its way, intellectual weakness. It is a shallow manoeuvre and it corresponds to a shallow religiosity or a religiosity that is a neurotic barrier.

I would not at any point say that there are not many shallow religionists but I am aware that most people do not have the training and the capacity, nor the need or desire, to examine themselves and *things* at a profound, philosophical level.

Where IC stands in relation to these issues is a separate topic. Similarly where Nick and where I myself stand should only be examined separately from the larger issue. It is an ad hominem fallacy to reduce it in that way.

I'm going to tell your mothers! 😂
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: Christianity

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

RCSaunders wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 2:57 pm It's why I posted my article, "What I Don't Believe," here on Philosophy Now so people like you could evade that mistake.
So is that the first installment? Usually after a declaration of what one does not believe it is followed with the one about what one does believe. Are you still working on it or has that terabyte been published somewhere? (Please don't freak me out but do you have a declared position on the rotundity of the Earth?!)

I thought evade instead of avoid was original. [Evade: escape or avoid, especially by cleverness or trickery].
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RCSaunders
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Re: Christianity

Post by RCSaunders »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 3:21 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 2:57 pm It's why I posted my article, "What I Don't Believe," here on Philosophy Now so people like you could evade that mistake.
So is that the first installment? Usually after a declaration of what one does not believe it is followed with the one about what one does believe. Are you still working on it or has that terabyte been published somewhere? (Please don't freak me out but do you have a declared position on the rotundity of the Earth?!)

I thought evade instead of avoid was original. [Evade: escape or avoid, especially by cleverness or trickery].
You didn't read the article. It includes some of what I do believe and links to much more (as if you were interested). If you are trying to insult me, you are doing a very bad job. If you are trying to offend me, you are wasting your time. I have elephant's skin. You are obviously not interested in discussing ideas. Try to do a better job at covering up your disingenuousness.
DPMartin
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Re: Christianity

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Nick_A wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 4:59 pm
DPMartin wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 4:15 pm
Nick_A wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 10:55 pm

Quite true. A Christian is one who walks in the precepts of Christ. A person who wants to be a Christian but cannot is a pre-Christian while a person with no interest is a non-Christian. The question becomes how a pre-Christian becomes a Christian.
its not a problem, Jesus explains in detail in Gospel according to John chapter 3
It has been my experience that many claim to be born again but don't walk in the precepts of Christ. They may be pre-Christian but far from being born again
yea but do you walk in the precepts of Christ? if so, then why question other's short comings that may be in the process? and if not then what could you know about it? and there's no such thing as pre-Christian, either you are or you're not born again
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: Christianity

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

RCSaunders wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 4:02 pmIf you are trying to insult me, you are doing a very bad job. If you are trying to offend me, you are wasting your time. I have elephant's skin. You are obviously not interested in discussing ideas.
I'd like to believe I have a delicate, humorous, even an effervescent touch! Insult you? (Reminds me of this scene).

I see it more as chiding. As I have been saying everyone has their locality. You have yours. I simply find it ... amusing. Not in the sense of ridicule as I am sure that you are sincere.

Simply put your conclusions do not interest me. I have no place for them. And I do not have the time to read a hundred pages of your philosophy. I get all I need from 1-2 paragraphs. You make your position clear enough!

I largely oppose your conclusions. But I see no sense in debating you. And I hope that no matter what you will continue to express yourself.

I am interested in discussing the ideas that I see as being relevant -- to myself obviously and within the contemporary context. You are off in a solipsistic zone. That does not interest me.
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RCSaunders
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Re: Christianity

Post by RCSaunders »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 4:22 pm
RCSaunders wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 4:02 pmIf you are trying to insult me, you are doing a very bad job. If you are trying to offend me, you are wasting your time. I have elephant's skin. You are obviously not interested in discussing ideas.
I'd like to believe I have a delicate, humorous, even an effervescent touch! Insult you? (Reminds me of this scene).

I see it more as chiding. As I have been saying everyone has their locality. You have yours. I simply find it ... amusing. Not in the sense of ridicule as I am sure that you are sincere.

Simply put your conclusions do not interest me. I have no place for them. And I do not have the time to read a hundred pages of your philosophy. I get all I need from 1-2 paragraphs. You make your position clear enough!

I largely oppose your conclusions. But I see no sense in debating you. And I hope that no matter what you will continue to express yourself.

I am interested in discussing the ideas that I see as being relevant -- to myself obviously and within the contemporary context. You are off in a solipsistic zone. That does not interest me.
Embracing the observed world, that one directly perceives (sees, hears, feels, smells, and tastes) and one's own consciousness of it is the only reality there is, is now solipsistic? That's a new one. I'm accused of everything from naive realism to being a materialist. Now I can add solipsistic to the list of labels others have attached to me. I soon will not need any clothing.

You do not seem to be interested in discussing ideas. All that you say and write seem intended to promote a certain ideology of your own, an agenda you want to put over. There is nothing wrong with that, it's what most of the people are here doing. The difference is, I'm not promoting anything, only explaining my views for anyone who is interested, because I think they can be valuable to anyone who understands them. Beyond that, I neither expect or desire anyone else to be convinced of anything nor do I have any deisre for them to be.

I want everyone to use their own mind to learn and think as well as they can and make the best choices they possibly can to live and be all they can make of themselves and to thoroughly enjoy their lives. I want everyone to be free to live their life as they choose without anyone else's interference and i want them to make themselves free, because no one else is going to do it for them.

I want everyone to learn how to live and enjoy others and be of real value to themselves and any others they choose to associate with.

I want those things because I believe they are necessary to the success and happiness for any human being, but I do not expect any of those things because most people are unwilling to pay the price necessary to achieve them, and I do not believe in forcing anything on anyone against their will.

If that's solipsism, I'll proudly wear it.
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: Christianity

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

An interesting interview with Jordan Peterson that covers a great deal relevant to this conversation.
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: Christianity

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 5:17 pm If the entry point to such knowledge is too high -- say, demanding advanced scholarship, complex mental gymnastics, technical information, vast historical data, and so on -- then all those who lack such knowledge, including children, the handicapped, those of lower intelligence, and so on, would simply have no way they could ever know God. Entering into a relationship with God would then be a matter only possible to the elites, to the highly intelligent, the advanced, the fully mature, and so on. It would be an aristocratic luxury, and we would have to suppose God cared nothing for the simple, the mentally-challenged, or children, at the very least -- and perhaps as well, that He loved the intellectual and despised the lowly.
The ‘elites’, then, the really qualified, the genuinely and foundationally convinced, even certain, have abandoned the field to the Masses of men and women who cannot — who care not — to think things through.

What has happened — this is my take — is that the high realms of knowledge which depend on men who had given their lives to study, to ‘mental gymnastics’, historical understanding and all the rest that you mention, fell off the radar of Mass Man, mentally incompetent man. A severing takes place. The *authority* who should be recognized, appreciated and valued, is progressively dimly seen. Then, Mass Man is left to his own devices. The ‘flock’ as it were separates from the shepherd. Too, the shepherd fails the flock.

The ‘entry-point’ can only be ‘simple faith’ but in no sense is this nor can it ever be suggested that it is the final point. It is a beginning-point. When children, the mentally handicapped, and those of low intelligence take over the higher orders of ideation and reduce it to idiot-rambling, enthusiasm, and sentimental faith — there is left no one capable of explaining why holding to the intellectual core of belief and faith is crucial and necessary.

The ‘intellectual world’ has suffered terribly and for reasons that must be understood before any remediation could occur. Is there really an ‘intellectual world’ left? More and more idiot-children appear in it. They comprehend so little and have set their wills to the project of intellectual reductionism. They lack elemental preparation and, intellectually, require remediation courses simply to get onto the first rungs.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 1:23 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 5:17 pm If the entry point to such knowledge is too high -- say, demanding advanced scholarship, complex mental gymnastics, technical information, vast historical data, and so on -- then all those who lack such knowledge, including children, the handicapped, those of lower intelligence, and so on, would simply have no way they could ever know God. Entering into a relationship with God would then be a matter only possible to the elites, to the highly intelligent, the advanced, the fully mature, and so on. It would be an aristocratic luxury, and we would have to suppose God cared nothing for the simple, the mentally-challenged, or children, at the very least -- and perhaps as well, that He loved the intellectual and despised the lowly.
The ‘elites’, then, the really qualified, the genuinely and foundationally convinced, even certain, have abandoned the field to the Masses of men and women who cannot — who care not — to think things through.
Right. They have. In their arrogance, they have assumed that their marginally greater intelligence than the ordinary man (the median is about IQ 98 in America, right now) makes them inherently better, more noble, more moral, or more worthy of leading then their less intelligent brethren.

But compared to the Ultimate Intelligence, they are farther from "elite" then a human being is from a handful of dirt...they are simply to arrogant to imagine that.
The *authority* who should be recognized, appreciated and valued, is progressively dimly seen.
Well, I agree. But it's the "Authority." Capital "A."
The ‘entry-point’ can only be ‘simple faith’ but in no sense is this nor can it ever be suggested that it is the final point. It is a beginning-point. When children, the mentally handicapped, and those of low intelligence take over the higher orders of ideation and reduce it to idiot-rambling, enthusiasm, and sentimental faith — there is left no one capable of explaining why holding to the intellectual core of belief and faith is crucial and necessary.
Yes, of course. But when we come at the start, we are all children in comparison to God. As Jesus Christ Himself said, "unless you change and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 18:3) That is the step of humility which the self-appointed 'wise" refuse to take. They will not recognize that the only way to come to God is to start with the realization of how immeasurably limited one is in comparison to Him. In their stupidity and arrogance, they compare themselves with other men...and not with God.
The ‘intellectual world’ has suffered terribly and for reasons that must be understood before any remediation could occur. Is there really an ‘intellectual world’ left? More and more idiot-children appear in it.
Yes. As Paul writes,

"Where is the wise person? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has God not made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe."
(1 Cor. 1:20-21)
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: Christianity

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So, you only speak when spoken to, eh? 🤣

The problem as I see it with your thesis is that you do not seem to be willing to see that God does not ‘speak’ except through men. God occurs in man, God occurs to man, strictly and only on an inner plane. I will say that this statement is absolute, and absolutely true.

So your error — a form of enthusiastic grandiosity typical of Evangelicals? — is to refer to this God as an abstraction. It is similar to the Islamic God Is Great! chant.

It is a seductive, simplistic idea. It leads to an error.

And so too is the manner in which you employ the notion of ‘becoming like a little child’. It cannot be as what many people seem to believe that it is: to give oneself over to childish idiocy where the higher intellect and intelligence does not supervise that child-mind.

In prayer and mediation, yes, obviously, it is easy to see that becoming child-like means surrendering an overblown will. But if anything is needed now it is clear-headed, responsible, self-aware men (and women) more similar to Jordan Peterson.
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Re: Christianity

Post by Dubious »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 2:05 pm So, you only speak when spoken to, eh? 🤣

The problem as I see it with your thesis is that you do not seem to be willing to see that God does not ‘speak’ except through men. God occurs in man, God occurs to man, strictly and only on an inner plane. I will say that this statement is absolute, and absolutely true.

So your error — a form of enthusiastic grandiosity typical of Evangelicals? — is to refer to this God as an abstraction. It is similar to the Islamic God Is Great! chant.

It is a seductive, simplistic idea. It leads to an error.

And so too is the manner in which you employ the notion of ‘becoming like a little child’. It cannot be as what many people seem to believe that it is: to give oneself over to childish idiocy where the higher intellect and intelligence does not supervise that child-mind.

In prayer and mediation, yes, obviously, it is easy to see that becoming child-like means surrendering an overblown will. But if anything is needed now it is clear-headed, responsible, self-aware men (and women) more similar to Jordan Peterson.
Whereas I agree with most of what you wrote, picking Jordan Peterson as clear-headed, responsible, self-aware as an example is more than I can accept. If there aren't considerably better choices among the so-called intellectual elite living or recently deceased, the merits of whatever future we're heading into will be even more debatable. Analysis of what anyone says is always advisable.

https://www.theguardian.com/science/201 ... rnets-nest
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 2:05 pm So your error — a form of enthusiastic grandiosity typical of Evangelicals? — is to refer to this God as an abstraction.
I know lots of evangelicals.

I've never known one who believed that.

What kind of "evangelicals" do you know? :shock:
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: Christianity

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

Dubious wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 7:48 pmWhereas I agree with most of what you wrote, picking Jordan Peterson as clear-headed, responsible, self-aware as an example is more than I can accept. If there aren't considerably better choices among the so-called intellectual elite living or recently deceased, the merits of whatever future we're heading into will be even more debatable. Analysis of what anyone says is always advisable.
But note that you have bolstered your rather unfavorable view of Peterson with an article in The Guardian. Do you think that The Guardian makes a case? I read the article (I believe I had read it awhile back) and I do not find it a very substantial critique. Given The Guardian's audience and orientation would you expect a different tack?

From The Guardian article:
The confrontation has worked wonders for Peterson. His new book 12 Rules for Life: An Antidote to Chaos has become a runaway bestseller in the UK, US, Canada, Australia, Germany and France, making him the public intellectual du jour. Peterson is not just another troll, narcissist or blowhard whose arguments are fatally compromised by bad faith, petulance, intellectual laziness and blatant bigotry. It is harder to argue with someone who believes what he says and knows what he is talking about – or at least conveys that impression. No wonder every scourge of political correctness, from the Spectator to InfoWars, is aflutter over the 55-year-old professor who appears to bring heavyweight intellectual armature to standard complaints about “social-justice warriors” and “snowflakes”. They think he could be the culture war’s Weapon X.
I don't have much admiration for this style of journalism. When it is examined closely, in my opinion, it shows itself as a *hit-piece* of a rather typical sort.

The 'confrontations' that Peterson has had -- with gender pronouns and his refusal to bend to State mandate, as well as that interview with Cathy Newman (definitely worth watching) -- have interested so many people because through his articulated positions he shows people that they too can resist these encroachments. Of the State certainly but also of political correctness generally. The interview was fascinating simply because he held his ground, without rancor, and allowed the interviewer to show her own flaws. But isn't that rather *intolerable* these days?

This sentence seems illustrative: "Peterson is not just another troll, narcissist or blowhard whose arguments are fatally compromised by bad faith, petulance, intellectual laziness and blatant bigotry. It is harder to argue with someone who believes what he says and knows what he is talking about – or at least conveys that impression."

It actually says that indeed he is a troll, a narcissist, a blowhard, who has fatally compromised arguments flawed by bad-faith, petulance, intellectual laziness and blatant bigotry. It is an underhanded sentence. It is the sentence that did all the heavy lifting intended in the article. Ad hominem by definition and thus fallacious. But do the readers of such articles care? I doubt it.

So then, if Jordan Peterson is popular (wildly popular in fact) why do you suppose that is? Is it as the author says? The stupid people seek a smartish representative? (Personally, I like some things he says and less others. And I really do not like his weepiness).
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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: Christianity

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

Immanuel Can wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 8:12 pmWhat kind of "evangelicals" do you know?
Your position seems to me to be essentially that of Evangelism -- so you!

By positing this question you are doing, again, what you often do: skirting the substance of my critique.
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