What Is Guilt?

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Philosophy Now
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What Is Guilt?

Post by Philosophy Now »

Farah Abdessamad wonders if it is a function of responsibility.

https://philosophynow.org/issues/147/What_Is_Guilt
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attofishpi
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Re: What Is Guilt?

Post by attofishpi »

Philosophy Now wrote: Wed Dec 22, 2021 1:38 pm What Is Guilt?

https://philosophynow.org/issues/147/What_Is_Guilt
..a nuisance.
Walker
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Re: What Is Guilt?

Post by Walker »

A feminine tool for manipulating men.
promethean75
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Re: What Is Guilt?

Post by promethean75 »

Originally it was a behavior evolving out of the reciprocal altruism dynamic that served to protect the transgressor from group retaliation, increasing his chances of surviving. But at this point there is no 'sense' of guilt... no concept of guilt... no internal 'conscience' mediated through complex language-use. It's more like an instinct than an intentional behavior.

Only way later as the brain evolves, and with the sophistication of the experience of self-awareness and sense of personal identity, does the instinctual behavior of 'acting guilty' (which was only the crude behavior of 'backing down', so to speak) become enhanced by the behavioral control mechanisms that come with those cognitive developments; the pre-reflective cogito, being aware of being aware, deliberate, pre-meditated and planned behavior with foresight of possible consequences, purpose of action and so forth.

At this point there is an expressed psychodynamic difference in the social behavior of the collective. Behavior is now informed, whereas before it was just reflexive. With this change, that same behavior of 'backing down' and becoming submissive, is modified by an additional dimension of sense; the sense of shame. This new sense becomes possible only through being able to feel responsible... which is again another product of that cognitively evolved self-awareness. So you have a new triad of possible conscious emotions (guilt, shame, responsibility) that developed out of the sense-less instinctual altruistic behavior of the more primitive version of man.

And all this is able to function because of the deceptive feeling of 'freewill' that results from the new complexity of the brain... especially its feedback and time-lapsed looping features that create the illusion of genuine volition of action, i.e., causally independent 'free choice' and self-agency.

Call it a 'useful error' in evolution because it serves to consolidate and encourage group cooperation, even if it is an illusion nonetheless (I mean freewill). A glitch that just happened to enhance group cooperative strategies rather than deter them.

But yes, fundamentally 'guilt' is unfounded because there is no freewill, and therefore no responsibility; no sole arbiter of volition, no agent, that spontaneously jumps into action independently of the forces of internal and external causation acting on the body.

Still the very foundation of civilization rests and depends on sustaining this deception.

But who would want to be part of civilization and subject themselves to such systematic and undermining deceptive social strategies? Like hello! Them niggas ain't fixin to get me trapped up in they bullshit. I'm not a great guy because I 'choose' to be. The shit is built in and comes with the promethean75 package. I'ont need no fallacious sense of 'guilt' and 'shame' and 'responsibility' to regulate my behavior. I bid thee do the same... but this is no easy task. Becoming a noble soul is as difficult as it is rare.

So remember, these three senses are psychodynamic devices used by weaklings, sometimes envious, sometimes afraid, who lack the brute power to control and manipulate you, so instead they poison your conscience and turn you into a 'pale criminal' who feels the 'bite of conscience' as your boy fritz once put it. Religion is notorious for doing this. A veritable swamp of such foul creatures.
dogparktom
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Re: What Is Guilt?

Post by dogparktom »

Why do some women, not having been subjected to any external "guilting" influence thereafter, feel guilty thereafter about having voluntarily chosen to abort their fetus? I have read that that is often the case.

I suspect that practicing psychiatrists may be able to shed light on this question.
Last edited by dogparktom on Sat Dec 25, 2021 7:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
promethean75
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Re: What Is Guilt?

Post by promethean75 »

Part 2. So let me explain what I've done here. Really some of my best work.

In order to take pride in being responsible, one has to believe they have the genuine liberty to commit what they perceive as unethical or immoral acts, without binding consequence. So the first step is to get rid of three things: god, objective morality, and freewill. Once you set them free of these things, they grow claws, and feel invigorated by this new feeling of freedom.

Now watch. Before, one wouldn't dare do the 'bad' thing because they were scurd, see. But now, one doesn't do the 'bad' thing because they genuinely choose not to without being under the obligation, the yoke, of fear and duress. This imbues one with a tremendous, tremendous sense of individual power. It is the very lack of external restraint that makes the decision to do the 'good' thing, authentic, see. To commit, one must first be liberated. One cannot become truly noble and in complete possession of the self, without this. And without this, there is no real responsibility. You don't get credit for doing the 'right' thing if you only did so because you are a coward.

Now leave this post better, faster, stronger... able to leap incompetent sophists and compatibalists in a single bound.

There's still no freewill tho. That's not something I can change, but I can provide a work-around.
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henry quirk
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Re: What Is Guilt?

Post by henry quirk »

Guilt is sumthin', accordin' to those who'd direct your head, you're supposed to suffer.

It's a construct: you run a stop sign, get tapped for it by the cop behind the hedges, you broke the law (you strayed from convention), you're guilty.

Shame, now that there is sumthin' different.

Shame is what you suffer when you know you done wrong (even when, especially when, no one else knows).

No one feels shame (nor should you) if you run that stop sign.

Traffic laws are not moral affairs: they're safety and efficiency regs, crafted by folks who don't always have your interests in mind.

On the other hand: if you steal, you are, and ought to be, ashamed.

There are, of course, those soulless-types -- no conscience -- runnin' around, them that don't give a flip.

They may some sympathies for those they wrong, but they're never ashamed for havin' wronged them.

These sad, empty, folks are not our measure, though.

But, henry, my child starves! I stole only to feed him! I should feel shame for this?

Yes, you should: not sayin' you were wrong to take what your kid needed for survival (I would do the same).

But, you still stole, still took what wasn't yours: you'd be sumthin' less than human if this didn't trouble you, no matter how right the reason.

But, I stole from some giant, mega, ultra, turbo-charged, global corp! You're sayin' I should still be ashamed?

You can argue you stole from thieves (you gotta know, not suspect, this is true, by the way) and you may indeed be blameless, but it still ought bother you cuz while it may not belong to that giant, mega, ultra, turbo-charged, global corp, it ain't yours either.

Call it what you will -- your gut, your conscience, your moral sense -- if you're not one of them soulless-types, you have one.

You ought to listen to it, be pained by it.
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Sculptor
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Re: What Is Guilt?

Post by Sculptor »

The church's way of manipulating people.

Embrace the Socratic paradox. Act as you will and never feel guilt.
Personally I've never understood the feeling since I always take responsibility for what I do and say.
I am not guilty by my own estimation, but only by others.

SO aqcording to other people I am guilty of smoking pot. However since I made that choice myself how can I feel guilt about doing so??
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: What Is Guilt?

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

All humans are "programmed" with a potential moral function [algorithm] which is at present has low activity in the majority.

As a functional system, there is a control feedback to monitor progress towards the intended goals.
This control feedback is the guilt emotion and impulse, i.e.
WIKI wrote:Guilt is a moral emotion that occurs when a person believes or realizes—accurately or not—that they have compromised their own standards of conduct or have violated universal moral standards and bear significant responsibility for that violation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guilt_(emotion)
Note 'guilt' is recognized as a real human emotion, albeit a secondary one.
Nick_A
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Re: What Is Guilt?

Post by Nick_A »

Guilt is a learned emotional reaction from secularized moral beliefs. Remorse of conscience in contrast is a universal objective human quality always known. Where guilt is learned, remorse of conscience is remembered.
Dubious
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Re: What Is Guilt?

Post by Dubious »

An often too sensitive side effect of conscience.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: What Is Guilt?

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Nick_A wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 5:19 am Guilt is a learned emotional reaction from secularized moral beliefs. Remorse of conscience in contrast is a universal objective human quality always known. Where guilt is learned, remorse of conscience is remembered.
Where did you get that? Any reference to it or it is merely your personal opinions.

Conscience is dealt extensively on a secular basis.
Conscience is a general awareness of what morally right or wrong.
Conscience would have existed long before any religion was established.
For example incest-avoidance which is a natural instinct is related to conscience.

Guilt OTOH is triggered when one has committed what is morally [inherent] wrong.
Nick_A
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Re: What Is Guilt?

Post by Nick_A »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 6:41 am
Nick_A wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 5:19 am Guilt is a learned emotional reaction from secularized moral beliefs. Remorse of conscience in contrast is a universal objective human quality always known. Where guilt is learned, remorse of conscience is remembered.
Where did you get that? Any reference to it or it is merely your personal opinions.

Conscience is dealt extensively on a secular basis.
Conscience is a general awareness of what morally right or wrong.
Conscience would have existed long before any religion was established.
For example incest-avoidance which is a natural instinct is related to conscience.

Guilt OTOH is triggered when one has committed what is morally [inherent] wrong.
Romans 2:14 (“a law unto themselves”).

For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)


Never do anything against conscience even if the state demands it. Albert Einstein


Emotional indoctrination creates guilt while responding to what is known and remembered in the heart is called conscience. Einstein understood the difference
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: What Is Guilt?

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Nick_A wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 3:40 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 6:41 am
Nick_A wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 5:19 am Guilt is a learned emotional reaction from secularized moral beliefs. Remorse of conscience in contrast is a universal objective human quality always known. Where guilt is learned, remorse of conscience is remembered.
Where did you get that? Any reference to it or it is merely your personal opinions.

Conscience is dealt extensively on a secular basis.
Conscience is a general awareness of what morally right or wrong.
Conscience would have existed long before any religion was established.
For example incest-avoidance which is a natural instinct is related to conscience.

Guilt OTOH is triggered when one has committed what is morally [inherent] wrong.
Romans 2:14 (“a law unto themselves”).

For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)


Never do anything against conscience even if the state demands it. Albert Einstein


Emotional indoctrination creates guilt while responding to what is known and remembered in the heart is called conscience. Einstein understood the difference
You wrote
Nick_A wrote: Mon Dec 27, 2021 5:19 am Guilt is a learned emotional reaction from secularized moral beliefs.
Remorse of conscience in contrast is a universal objective human quality always known. Where guilt is learned, remorse of conscience is remembered.
But I differentiated between what is guilt and conscience.

Your above point from the Bible is groundless because God is impossible to be real.

So Guilt is NOT a learned emotional reaction from secularized moral beliefs.

The natural guilt impulse will naturally effect theists as well when they had acted against what are natural moral principles, e.g. killing another human and etc.. What they then do is to seek forgiveness from a God.
Nick_A
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Re: What Is Guilt?

Post by Nick_A »

VA wrote:
Your above point from the Bible is groundless because God is impossible to be real.
Simone Weil wrote:
It is only the impossible that is possible for God. He has given over the possible to the mechanics of matter and the autonomy of his creatures.
Simone is right but can your atheism allow you to understand why?
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