You have lost the plot.
Our universe is contingent
Re: Our universe is contingent
You have lost the plot.
So to answer your dumb question. We are here of necessity since we were all born from the conditions of cause and effect. What we do is also entriely contingent upon circumstances.
Unless you think I just energed from the elbow of Zeus, or popped into being with no cause then even you think I am "necessary".
That which is contingent is the recognition that changing events are caused by various contingent factors upon which they rely.
Thus my continuong contibution on this thread is contingent upon my continued use of a wi-fi connection and a working computer.
"Everything" that is known as the "universe" is a collection of things upon which all other things are contingent.
But regardless of all those causes and effects, the Universe itself or "EVERYTHING" as a whol is not depenant on any other thing SINCE IT IS "everything" as is not contingent upon anything.
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Re: Our universe is contingent
Nowhere is man's paltry intellectual aptitude more evident then when speculating on subject-matter such as the Universe. As if we can understand anything at all, yet the whole enchalada.
It's about doing productive things. Keep the thinking to a minimum and perhaps our species has a chance to survive a bit longer...
Re: Our universe is contingent
But there is volition too so we are not here necessarily. I mean, your parents could decide to do not have you.
I agree. There is volition too.
Poping into existence is possible, of course not in the case of humans.
I agree. There is volition too.
I agree.
You need to prove two things: 1) The universe contains everything and 2) How something that its part is contingent could be necessary?
Re: Our universe is contingent
What is enchalada?simplicity wrote: ↑Sun Dec 05, 2021 5:26 pmNowhere is man's paltry intellectual aptitude more evident then when speculating on subject-matter such as the Universe. As if we can understand anything at all, yet the whole enchalada.
I have nothing else to do but thinking.simplicity wrote: ↑Sun Dec 05, 2021 5:26 pm It's about doing productive things. Keep the thinking to a minimum and perhaps our species has a chance to survive a bit longer...
Re: Our universe is contingent
Volition is driven by hormones, and brain states. You cannot escape reality - though you seem to exhibit that, you are still determined by what you are .
Votiion is deterministic
Give ONE example.
Yes there is that determinisng factor amongst others.I agree. There is volition too.
Including volition.
No. I have nothing to prove. You are the one making the false assertions at the top o the thread. What I say is logically sound.You need to prove two things: 1) The universe contains everything and 2) How something that its part is contingent could be necessary?
The universe is necessary.
Its parts are contingent on one another since they are wholly determined by one another.
Re: Our universe is contingent
Hormones and brain states are deterministic. Volition is not.Sculptor wrote: ↑Sun Dec 05, 2021 9:13 pmVolition is driven by hormones, and brain states. You cannot escape reality - though you seem to exhibit that, you are still determined by what you are.
No.
Virtual particles.
No. The volition is not deterministic.
No, volition does not depend on something else. You can choose freely.
No, it does not logically sound. You need to prove that the universe contains everything.Sculptor wrote: ↑Sun Dec 05, 2021 5:12 pmNo. I have nothing to prove. You are the one making the false assertions at the top o the thread. What I say is logically sound.You need to prove two things: 1) The universe contains everything and 2) How something that its part is contingent could be necessary?
It is not when all its parts are contingent.
I agree.
Re: Our universe is contingent
What causes volition?
Virtual particles are caused by computer programs. They are caused.Poping into existence is possible, of course not in the case of humans.
Virtual particles.
Then you have contradicted yourself once again.
Re: Our universe is contingent
The volition is caused by the mind, the mind being an irreducible substance.
Not at all. They are part of the reality. You might like to read this.
Not when choice matters. Otherwise, things are fully deterministic.
Re: Our universe is contingent
But I have NEVER said that, and, by the way, I NEVER would say that.bahman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 05, 2021 4:06 pmThat our universe is eternal and infinite.Age wrote: ↑Sun Dec 05, 2021 3:10 amIt only APPEARS as "nonsense" to those who do NOT even attempt to GAIN CLARITY.
Because, OF COURSE, if and when CLARITY is GAINED that what WAS once considered "nonsense" can only then BEGIN to makes sense.
By the way, what part of what I said here do you consider is "my nonsense"?
I suggest that, from now on, you read the ACTUAL words that I say and write, and just use them ALONE.
That way you will NOT be SO Wrong regards your ASSUMPTION, as OFTEN as you are here.
What are you basing this so-called "fact" on, EXACTLY?
But, to you, there are 'minds' that create 'things' correct?bahman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 05, 2021 4:06 pmI said there is no God.Age wrote: ↑Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:54 pmSo, to you, there was a beginning to the Universe, correct, or 'a beginning' to some thing else? And, if it was the latter, then what was that 'thing', EXACTLY?
Is there 'A God' to you?
If yes, then WHERE is this God in relation to thee Universe, Itself? And what, EXACTLY, did this God create, EXACTLY?
If this is correct, to you, and the Universe began, then what, EXACTLY, made the Universe begin?
How could you even reply to 'this future' anyway?bahman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 05, 2021 4:06 pmOff-topic. So please don't comment on this future since I am not going to reply to it.Age wrote: ↑Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:54 pmHere we have a PRIME EXAMPLE of EXACTLY WHEN someone is NOT able to back up and support THEIR CLAIMS. Which is FURTHER PROOF of EXACTLY HOW, WHY, WHEN, and WHERE someone's CLAIMS are just plain old False, Wrong, or Incorrect. Which leads to discovering or uncovering WHAT thee ACTUAL Truth IS, EXACTLY.
But ALL them just simply create, correct?bahman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 05, 2021 4:06 pmI never said that there is a mind or minds who created the beginning.Age wrote: ↑Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:54 pmOf which, to you, there are MANY.
Like, there are "minds", which 'you', human beings, have and use BUT which, contradictory, CONTROL 'you' AS WELL. And, there are, to you again, "minds", which exist within ALL objects, and then there is that all-knowing, all-powerful, all-etc, simply the creator "mind", which may or may not have caused or created 'the beginning' of the Universe. Which, to you, is NOT Everything.
This does not take away from the Fact that you have absolutely NO evidence AT ALL for your CLAIMS here, let alone have ANY ACTUAL PROOF. Nor, from just how much illogical nonsense you CLAIM here while 'trying' your hardest to back up and support those False, Wrong, and Incorrect CLAIMS of yours.bahman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 05, 2021 4:06 pmI just meant that I don't think that there is a creator of everything out of nothing. Whether this is true or not is the subject to another thread so it is off-topic.Age wrote: ↑Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:54 pmSo, because 'you' "have a thread" on a particular topic, then this MEANS 100% that WHATEVER "bahman" writes in that thread IS IRREFUTABLY True, Right, AND Correct, correct?
In other words, if "bahman" writes "a thread", then what 'you' write can NOT be False, Wrong, NOR Incorrect, correct?
Other attributes like changeless, omnipresent, all-loving, etc. This is however off-topic so please don't ask further questions.
Off-topic.
As I said mind does not have gender but the person has. This is however off-topic.Age wrote: ↑Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:54 pmYET you just got through CLAIMING that there is "a mind" which is a "she" or a "he", and that "he" or "she" KNOWS EVERY thing.
But now you want to CLAIM that 'Mind' does NOT have a gender, but people may or may not have a gender.
Do you reckon that just ONCE when I CHALLENGE you or ask you a QUESTION for CLARITY that you will be ABLE to PROVIDE some sort of CLARITY instead of just making things FAR MORE NONSENSICAL or CONVOLUTED?
My fault.
There are many things that we discuss in this thread that are off-topic. Including this one.
Besides this if you think discussing the Universe and how It exists and/or where It came from is "off topic" in a thread and topic about the 'Universe being contingent', then I think you will find that you are sadly very mistaken.
Re: Our universe is contingent
What does the word 'universe' actually mean or refer to, to you?bahman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 05, 2021 4:26 pmNo, I didn't experience other universes but they could exist. The universe with a higher dimension which contains our universe or the universe which are causally independent of ours.Age wrote: ↑Sun Dec 05, 2021 3:56 amLOL
LOL
LOL
LOL
LOL
Then how do 'you', the human being, KNOW that 'it' even exists at all?
Are 'you', "bahman", a human being?
If yes, then HOW did 'you' come to experience this OTHER universe, which 'you' can NOT experience?
But if 'you', "bahman", are NOT a human being, then who and/or what are 'you', EXACTLY?
1. The size and dimension of this one and ONLY Universe.bahman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 05, 2021 4:26 pmWhere is your proof that there are no other universes?Age wrote: ↑Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:27 pmAnd I have ALREADY PROVED IRREFUTABLY True, to you, that there IS NOT and NEVER even could be ANY "other universes". But, if you can NOT YET understand this Fact, then 'we' will HAVE TO FIND OTHER WAYS to help 'you' to SEE and UNDERSTAND what thee ACTUAL Truth IS here "bahman".
2. EXACTLY what the word 'Universe' refers to.
As I mentioned the universe is not eternal.[/quote]Age wrote: ↑Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:27 pm"our universe" is NOT EVEN a Correct and Accurate phrase or term. Let alone have absolutely ANY thing to do with what thee One and ONLY ACTUAL Truth IS here. So, you can disagree until the day that little old body stops breathing and pumping blood. But if 'you' can NOT even USE the Correct and Right True terms and phrases, to begin with, then 'you' will NEVER come to KNOW what thee One and ONLY ACTUAL Truth IS.
In "bahman's" own 'little world' it may be ABSOLUTELY and IRREFUTABLY True that "bahman's" and "some other's" universe is NOT eternal, and thus had NO beginning. But that is just that "little universe" ONLY, which OBVIOUSLY has NO bearing AT ALL on what ACTUALLY HAPPENS and OCCURS in thee One and ONLY Universe, in which absolutely EVERY thing exists.
You NEVER mentioned that here. As can be CLEARLY SEEN and PROVED True, by your OWN words here.
So, you discuss these things SOME times, and you even START these discussions SOME times but when we delve into them and SEE that they are ILLOGICAL you turn to the "off topic" remark, and ONLY when you think that is suits you.
WHY THEE Universe is infinite is because of WHAT EXACTLY the Universe is, fundamentally, made up of AND because of HOW THEE Universe, actually, works.bahman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 05, 2021 4:26 pmNo, you need a proof. Why our physical universe is infinite?Age wrote: ↑Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:27 pmBut I do NOT need a proof for the Fact that thee One and ONLY Universe IS eternal AND infinite. That is just the way 'things' ARE. Oh, and by the way, I NEVER needed proof for that NOR ANY thing else is because I neither BELIEVE nor DISBELIEVE ANY thing is true. So, I do NOT seek NOR need PROOF. I just use what IS, ALREADY, for PROOF. As, what IS SPEAKS for Itself, anyway.
There IS thee PROOF.
SO WHAT?bahman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 05, 2021 4:26 pmThis we already discussed. When there are options in the system then there is a conflict of interest.Age wrote: ↑Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:27 pm
And, I could also ACCUSE 'you' of being HOPELESS because I BELIEVE, without ACTUAL PROOF, that you can NOT understand some thing, AS WELL.
But for ANY one to even ATTEMPT to do this just SHOWS and REVEALS the IMMATURITY and STUPIDITY of that one, so I would NEVER do such a thing as you have done here.
By the way, WHAT 'conflict of interest' are you referring to here, EXACTLY?
And, HOW could ANY 'conflict of interest' STOP 'cause AND effect' from continually occurring and happening?
Cause AND effect IS CONTINUOUS, no matter how many 'conflicts of interests' occur.
Off-topic.
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Re: Our universe is contingent
My reinforced second P1 included P3 of the first syllogism.bahman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 05, 2021 4:29 pmYour conclusion in the second syllogism "the human mind cannot be independent for whatever things are in reality" is different from P1 in the first syllogism "Reality as all-there-is cannot be independent of human minds".Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Sun Dec 05, 2021 7:04 amP1 is self-explanatory.
Reality is ALL that exists.
It is supported by my earlier syllogism, i.e.
1. Reality is all there is.
2.The human mind is intricately linked to all within all there is.
3. Therefore the human mind cannot be independent for whatever things are in reality.
Re: Our universe is contingent
Is 'volition' absolutely free and uninfluenced or is 'it' caused and created by some thing else?
If 'mind' is a substance, then it is part of 'cause and effect', and if 'volition' is caused by the 'irreducible substance mind' thingy, then 'volition' is actually just another part of 'cause and effect'.
So, if they are part of the so-called 'reality', then they 'pop into existence' EXACTLY like EVERY thing else does.
The reason 'you', human beings, do NOT SEE and RECOGNIZE this Fact is the EXACT SAME reason 'you' do NOT RECOGNIZE and SEE ALL of the other ACTUAL and IRREFUTABLE Truths, and thus Facts in Life. And, that is; because 'you' only LOOK AT and thus SEE 'things' from the human beings' perspective ONLY.
But ALL choices can only be based upon deterministic factors anyway, obviously.
Re: Our universe is contingent
Tut tut.
What nonsense. How do people change their minds?
DO not link thinhs that you cannot understand.
It makes you look even more stupid.
What makes you say that?
Re: Our universe is contingent
So you don't think that the universe is infinite and eternal. If not, it is finite and has a beginning.Age wrote: ↑Mon Dec 06, 2021 1:26 amBut I have NEVER said that, and, by the way, I NEVER would say that.bahman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 05, 2021 4:06 pmThat our universe is eternal and infinite.Age wrote: ↑Sun Dec 05, 2021 3:10 am
It only APPEARS as "nonsense" to those who do NOT even attempt to GAIN CLARITY.
Because, OF COURSE, if and when CLARITY is GAINED that what WAS once considered "nonsense" can only then BEGIN to makes sense.
By the way, what part of what I said here do you consider is "my nonsense"?
I suggest that, from now on, you read the ACTUAL words that I say and write, and just use them ALONE.
That way you will NOT be SO Wrong regards your ASSUMPTION, as OFTEN as you are here.
Contingency has nothing to do with the beginning of the universe.
Mind creates Qualia and not the whole universe.Age wrote: ↑Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:54 pmBut, to you, there are 'minds' that create 'things' correct?bahman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 05, 2021 4:06 pmI said there is no God.Age wrote: ↑Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:54 pm So, to you, there was a beginning to the Universe, correct, or 'a beginning' to some thing else? And, if it was the latter, then what was that 'thing', EXACTLY?
Is there 'A God' to you?
If yes, then WHERE is this God in relation to thee Universe, Itself? And what, EXACTLY, did this God create, EXACTLY?
If this is correct, to you, and the Universe began, then what, EXACTLY, made the Universe begin?
They create Qualia but they are not God, the creator of beginning.Age wrote: ↑Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:54 pmBut ALL them just simply create, correct?bahman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 05, 2021 4:06 pmI never said that there is a mind or minds who created the beginning.Age wrote: ↑Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:54 pm Of which, to you, there are MANY.
Like, there are "minds", which 'you', human beings, have and use BUT which, contradictory, CONTROL 'you' AS WELL. And, there are, to you again, "minds", which exist within ALL objects, and then there is that all-knowing, all-powerful, all-etc, simply the creator "mind", which may or may not have caused or created 'the beginning' of the Universe. Which, to you, is NOT Everything.
Off-topic.Age wrote: ↑Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:54 pmThis does not take away from the Fact that you have absolutely NO evidence AT ALL for your CLAIMS here, let alone have ANY ACTUAL PROOF. Nor, from just how much illogical nonsense you CLAIM here while 'trying' your hardest to back up and support those False, Wrong, and Incorrect CLAIMS of yours.bahman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 05, 2021 4:06 pmI just meant that I don't think that there is a creator of everything out of nothing. Whether this is true or not is the subject to another thread so it is off-topic.Age wrote: ↑Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:54 pm So, because 'you' "have a thread" on a particular topic, then this MEANS 100% that WHATEVER "bahman" writes in that thread IS IRREFUTABLY True, Right, AND Correct, correct?
In other words, if "bahman" writes "a thread", then what 'you' write can NOT be False, Wrong, NOR Incorrect, correct?
Other attributes like changeless, omnipresent, all-loving, etc. This is however off-topic so please don't ask further questions.
Off-topic.
As I said mind does not have gender but the person has. This is however off-topic.Age wrote: ↑Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:54 pm
YET you just got through CLAIMING that there is "a mind" which is a "she" or a "he", and that "he" or "she" KNOWS EVERY thing.
But now you want to CLAIM that 'Mind' does NOT have a gender, but people may or may not have a gender.
Do you reckon that just ONCE when I CHALLENGE you or ask you a QUESTION for CLARITY that you will be ABLE to PROVIDE some sort of CLARITY instead of just making things FAR MORE NONSENSICAL or CONVOLUTED?
My fault.
There are many things that we discuss in this thread that are off-topic. Including this one.
Besides this if you think discussing the Universe and how It exists and/or where It came from is "off topic" in a thread and topic about the 'Universe being contingent', then I think you will find that you are sadly very mistaken.