make truth?
make truth?
if someone lies and more people believe the lie more then don't believe the lie, does that make it the truth?
- Immanuel Can
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Re: make truth?
to the believers it wasImmanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 5:29 pmWhen 100% of the world believed the world was flat, was the world flat?
definitions change with perspectives
-Imp
- Immanuel Can
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Re: make truth?
"To the believers..."? In other words, "No, it was not flat...people just imagined it was, and later found out they were wrong."Impenitent wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 9:54 pmto the believers it wasImmanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 5:29 pmWhen 100% of the world believed the world was flat, was the world flat?
But that's not the question. The question is, "Do facts change with perspectives?"definitions change with perspectives
And, of course, they don't.
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Re: make truth?
which is nothing but your perspective...Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 10:14 pm"To the believers..."? In other words, "No, it was not flat...people just imagined it was, and later found out they were wrong."Impenitent wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 9:54 pmto the believers it wasImmanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 5:29 pm
When 100% of the world believed the world was flat, was the world flat?
no, to the believers it was.
But that's not the question. The question is, "Do facts change with perspectives?"definitions change with perspectives
And, of course, they don't.
-Imp
- Immanuel Can
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Re: make truth?
No, it's actually the truth. If somebody has a different "perspective," then the world stays a globe, no matter what they think.Impenitent wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 11:35 pmwhich is nothing but your perspective...Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 10:14 pm"To the believers..."? In other words, "No, it was not flat...people just imagined it was, and later found out they were wrong."
no, to the believers it was.
But that's not the question. The question is, "Do facts change with perspectives?"definitions change with perspectives
And, of course, they don't.
-Imp
- henry quirk
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Re: make truth?
Is Sol just perspective?Impenitent wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 11:35 pmwhich is nothing but your perspective...Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 10:14 pm"To the believers..."? In other words, "No, it was not flat...people just imagined it was, and later found out they were wrong."
no, to the believers it was.
But that's not the question. The question is, "Do facts change with perspectives?"definitions change with perspectives
And, of course, they don't.
-Imp
Is combustion just perspective?
Is lava just perspective?
Specifically: are the three phenomena we call Sol, combustion, lava just perspective?
If so: by changin' my perspective can I alter those three?
I can certainly alter what I believe about the Sun, explosive oxidation, and molten rock, but -- no -- Sol, combustion, lava, not a one requires my perspective to exist, and not one is changed because, for example, today I think the Sun is too damn hot and tomorrow I think the Sun is just right.
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Re: make truth?
ah, you have "the truth"Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 11:50 pmNo, it's actually the truth. If somebody has a different "perspective," then the world stays a globe, no matter what they think.Impenitent wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 11:35 pmwhich is nothing but your perspective...Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 10:14 pm
"To the believers..."? In other words, "No, it was not flat...people just imagined it was, and later found out they were wrong."
no, to the believers it was.
But that's not the question. The question is, "Do facts change with perspectives?"
And, of course, they don't.
-Imp
nothing further to discuss
-Imp
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Re: make truth?
no, changing your perspective is only changing your perspective...henry quirk wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 11:55 pmIs Sol just perspective?Impenitent wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 11:35 pmwhich is nothing but your perspective...Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 10:14 pm
"To the believers..."? In other words, "No, it was not flat...people just imagined it was, and later found out they were wrong."
no, to the believers it was.
But that's not the question. The question is, "Do facts change with perspectives?"
And, of course, they don't.
-Imp
Is combustion just perspective?
Is lava just perspective?
Specifically: are the three phenomena we call Sol, combustion, lava just perspective?
If so: by changin' my perspective can I alter those three?
I can certainly alter what I believe about the Sun, explosive oxidation, and molten rock, but -- no -- Sol, combustion, lava, not a one requires my perspective to exist, and not one is changed because, for example, today I think the Sun is too damn hot and tomorrow I think the Sun is just right.
the thing in itself is beyond perception
-Imp
- henry quirk
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Re: make truth?
*Obviously this is not true. I stride out into the new lava field in bare feet. My senses quite clearly allow me to apprehend what's destroying my feet, legs, body...I can see it, hear it, feel it: molten rock is eradicatin' the substance of me...I'm friggin' dyin' cuz I was an idiot and thought walkin' 'round in lava was a keen thing to do.Impenitent wrote: ↑Sat May 01, 2021 7:50 pmno, changing your perspective is only changing your perspective...henry quirk wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 11:55 pmIs Sol just perspective?
Is combustion just perspective?
Is lava just perspective?
Specifically: are the three phenomena we call Sol, combustion, lava just perspective?
If so: by changin' my perspective can I alter those three?
I can certainly alter what I believe about the Sun, explosive oxidation, and molten rock, but -- no -- Sol, combustion, lava, not a one requires my perspective to exist, and not one is changed because, for example, today I think the Sun is too damn hot and tomorrow I think the Sun is just right.
*the thing in itself is beyond perception
-Imp
I may not have access to all of the world (my eyes, nose, ears, skin, are finite) but the particular slice of the world I do apprehend is real, I can and should trust that apprehension...if I had, I wouldn't be charcoal right now.
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Re: make truth?
trusting your perception is fine... claiming your perception is more than your perception is an error
-Imp
-Imp
- Immanuel Can
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Re: make truth?
You don't think so? You don't believe the world is a globe?Impenitent wrote: ↑Sat May 01, 2021 7:46 pmah, you have "the truth"Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 11:50 pmNo, it's actually the truth. If somebody has a different "perspective," then the world stays a globe, no matter what they think.
- henry quirk
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Re: make truth?
I'm a direct realist (with, mebbe, a touch of George Boree's quality realism for color).Impenitent wrote: ↑Sat May 01, 2021 8:22 pm trusting your perception is fine... claiming your perception is more than your perception is an error
-Imp
The disintergratin' heat of the lava isn't in my head. No, it's conducted to me, apprehended by me. It's real and I am literally touchin' it, bein' burned up by it.
I'm not contructin' the world in my head from processed information; I'm directly apprehendin' it.
I perceive the lava directly, and quite painfully.
The error, then is the thing in itself is beyond perception.
As I say: I only access a slice of the world, much of it is, in effect, invisible to me, but that slice, what I apprehend, is real, I navigate it, touch it, enjoy it, am harmed by it, claim sustenance from it, defend parts of it...and all this navigatin', touchin', enjoyin', injury, sustainin', and defense occurs becuz I am in contact with the world, becuz I'm in the world.
Nuthin' is beyond perception, we simply lack the natural capacity to perceive it all.
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Re: make truth?
evil demons be damned...henry quirk wrote: ↑Sat May 01, 2021 10:51 pmI'm a direct realist (with, mebbe, a touch of George Boree's quality realism for color).Impenitent wrote: ↑Sat May 01, 2021 8:22 pm trusting your perception is fine... claiming your perception is more than your perception is an error
-Imp
The disintergratin' heat of the lava isn't in my head. No, it's conducted to me, apprehended by me. It's real and I am literally touchin' it, bein' burned up by it.
I'm not contructin' the world in my head from processed information; I'm directly apprehendin' it.
I perceive the lava directly, and quite painfully.
The error, then is the thing in itself is beyond perception.
As I say: I only access a slice of the world, much of it is, in effect, invisible to me, but that slice, what I apprehend, is real, I navigate it, touch it, enjoy it, am harmed by it, claim sustenance from it, defend parts of it...and all this navigatin', touchin', enjoyin', injury, sustainin', and defense occurs becuz I am in contact with the world, becuz I'm in the world.
Nuthin' is beyond perception, we simply lack the natural capacity to perceive it all.
then nothing exists outside the immediate perception in the moment?
-Imp
- RCSaunders
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Re: make truth?
This, "thing in itself," you say is, "beyond perception," how is it, if it cannot be perceived, that you know about it?
If this, "thing in itself, is not detected in any way, directly or indirectly by human perception, how did you become conscious of it. Is this some kind of mystic insight only you have by which you are aware of these, "things in themselves," or is it just your faith in Platonic forms or some other religious teaching?
Please explain how anyone can know these, "things in themselves," so we can put aside our mistaken notion that the world we actually see, hear, feel, smell, and taste, live and work in, and have all our experience in, is the real and only world.